starting a palm garden from scratch ...how would you do it ?

[trioderob]

knowing what you know now - starting from clean slate - what would you do ?

so in other words - buy seedlings ?  - 5 /10 / 20 pots  ? - watering system - soil prep - zone push or go conservative - build a greenhouse ? - remove existing plants- plant fast growing tropical trees for dappled light understory palms - mix with succulents or cacti  ? - go crazy or plant moderate amount- one of everything or multiples - water loving or drought hardy ? - ferigation system - composting - buy sun hardened or put up shade cloth......

Edited November 17, 2015 by trioderob

[_Keith]

This is so open ended, it is hard to even summarize the questions, site, budget, taste, formal,informal, jungle, immediate to long term gratification, self care or professional care  and on and on.  Can you be a bit more specific?

 

[trioderob]

see above

[Phoenikakias]

Make before everything else an elementary amendment or replacement of native soil (in this context maybe using garden provisorily as pet cemetery). Then try to find an experienced grower in the same area and/or join the local palm society.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Phoenikakias

[_Keith]

OK, I get it.   My answer is "I wouldn't"    Seriously.   I have no desire to start over, and knowing what I know now, I would invest my money in something else.

[Zeeth]

If still in Florida:

Find a source for powdered or granular charcoal for as cheap as possible to mix with the native soil to make some of this stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta

Get a deep well dug and connected to a fertilizer/N-pHuric acid system like mcrawford posted about in your "nursery owners" thread.

Rig the planting zones with micro sprinklers.

Buy up a bunch of stuff from Floribunda to start off with, fill in the gaps with plants from a Searle sale. 

Plant tropical fruit trees sporadically throughout the garden.

Use crotons, Ti plants, bromeliads, and Madagascar periwinkle to fill in all the low spots once the palms have gained some height.

Mulch heavily and reapply an inch of mulch yearly. 

 

If I decide to move to Hawaii, then just scratch the first three things off the list, and maybe the last one. 

[trioderob]

1 hour ago, _Keith said:

OK, I get it.   My answer is "I wouldn't"    Seriously.   I have no desire to start over, and knowing what I know now, I would invest my money in something else.

that's a powerful statement

[Ben in Norcal]

I would have started 10 years earlier.

[Moose]

Buy very large material. And mulch like a fool. You just can't beat superior soil, especially for most palms.

If I ever hit the lottery, I would buy a larger property and put a hurtin on Mr. Searle's stock of large rare palms. I'd still keep the Mooseland, just too attached.

Have no desire to start over just like Keith. I feel blessed to have what I have already!

[bgl]

I agree with Keith's initial comment ("open ended"). There are just too many variables, and most of them related to location. Very different approach here on the Big Island compared to, say, coastal (southern) California or Florida. I have started two gardens from scratch here - my first (which ended up covering five acres) almost twenty years ago. The initial three lots were so dense that it took me an hour the first time I walked from the front to the back (a distance of 436 ft). Some of the undergrowth here is so dense that it's just plain impossible to walk through. A bit different to start from scratch when you're up against weeds that can grow 30 ft tall in a year compared to, say, a small residential lot in southern California. I started from scratch again exactly five years ago on my new two acres. Same story with the undergrowth. Some of it I ripped out with a D8 bulldozer that cleared about half of the property. Only problem with that is that once you get rid of the undergrowth, which is fairly slow growing, that's when the fast moving weeds move in, and they can take over in just a few months.

I guess I didn't answer the question - what I would do, starting from scratch. Answer, and specific to the Hilo side of the Big Island, do the same I've already done twice - BUT only clear gradually (= what you intend to plant on). Make a general plan, but finetune as you go. There is no soil preparation here. You simply buy truckloads of cinder-soil mix as you go. There's no need for irrigation because we already have irrigation in the form of (on average) 130 inches of rain every year. (Already up to 135 inches so far this year!  ). There's no zone pushing here - plant what you like and it will grow (98% of the time). No need for a greenhouse. Ideal size: 5 gallon plants. Big enough that the weeds won't overwhelm them. Smaller stuff, especially 4 inch, tends to get overwhelmed by weeds and if you're out there weedwhacking it's impossible to know where you planted everything and you end up saying "Ooops, there goes another one" quite frequently!!  And multiples - definitely, if you have the space for it. There's nothing better than planting in groups. First of all because it looks great and secondly, if you lose one and you have ten more, not a major disaster. If you have one, and you lose one - not so good.

I think I covered most of it!

[Kim]

I have started over in southern California, but not like others might do.  Having a 2-acre garden in Hawaii, the dry So-Cal garden is dramatically scaled back.  Small garden, low maintenance, low water use, not a problem to leave while traveling. There are 5 palm species and I'd like to get rid of one of them. The obsession is elsewhere.  

 

[knell]

9 hours ago, _Keith said:

OK, I get it.   My answer is "I wouldn't"    Seriously.   I have no desire to start over, and knowing what I know now, I would invest my money in something else.

now i'm sad :[

[Jeff Searle]

Jump in "balls to the walls"....life is short.  But on a more serious note, many good points were just made above. And it does depend on how young you are, right?

[JLeVert]

The biggest mistake I made when I started 30 years ago was not leaving enough space for the maximum diameter for my palms.  If you start with small material, your garden is going to change pretty dramatically in just a couple of years as the palms take up more and more space before they start to trunk up.  When they do the 'trunking' thing, you will have empty space underneath to do something with.  It has been a great adventure for me and I've loved all the changes as they have become necessary.  Gardening with palms has been a challenge and a great way to keep the imagination active!

 

 

 

 

[Palmaceae]

I started my collection from scratch in May of 2014 here in the Cape. I started growing palms in 1980 in St Pete, then moved back up north in '97. My collection now is how I wanted to do it, but as many said there are many variables. I would have liked to start with older palms as I am not young anymore but with the resources I have I did what I could.  But all that said I like how my collection is turning out and am blessed to even have one.

[DoomsDave]

Assuming a limited budget, or just plain stinginess, I'd start with smaller plants, and try to plan around the big stuff.

Sometimes big plants for cheap come your way too.

Planning should be done, but it should be like a great song, a framework for inspiration, not a straightjacket.

[Kim]

I guess my Hawaii garden is not so old -- coming up on exactly six years since I bought the property.  The way I did it was to get lots of good advice from the locals.  There was no real garden at all to begin with, just a wild tangle of trash trees and heavy brush with a few struggling coconuts and an unhealthy bamboo clump.

As it is a long-distance garden and a second home, I could only develop it a little at a time, which has worked out really well.  The general operation was to have equipment come in to clear a section, then bring in a load of soil dumped in a pile.  (It would be a waste to spread it around.)  With long periods between developing different sections, there was plenty of time to work up an overall plan for the first acre, then slowly plant it out.  Modifications to the original plan occur when inspiration takes the garden in a slightly different direction, and when unexpected palms become available -- there is always something new.  But the general plan of open spaces alternating with dense spaces connected by wide paths with "destinations" or focal points along the way is the permanent skeleton of the garden.

It is so much easier to plant 5-gal or smaller palms, and they grow fast enough -- why use anything larger?  A lot of the thrill is watching little seedlings grow into trunking palms and watching mid-sized plants explode in size.  The garden is just now getting to the stage when adding more of the smaller decorative plants makes sense.  Canopy is getting dense enough to shelter the colorful accents and they are now less likely to be overwhelmed by weeds, at least in a few areas.  It is also time to consider making the garden more accessible for easier maintenance.  Some areas have very deep, vertical holes, for example, and there are a few sections with unstable rocks and logs, a threat to the ankles. I liked the wildness, but as a practical matter, some taming is in order.

There will not be any more heavy equipment coming into the main acre.  The new 2nd acre may or may not be developed much.  It is very wild and rough, dense in some areas, more open in others.  I have to plan for the future and my ability to maintain what I create.

[dalmatiansoap]

16 hours ago, Ben in Norcal said:

I would have started 10 years earlier.

The best line IMO

x2

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

3 hours ago, JLeVert said:

The biggest mistake I made when I started 30 years ago was not leaving enough space for the maximum diameter for my palms.  If you start with small material, your garden is going to change pretty dramatically in just a couple of years as the palms take up more and more space before they start to trunk up.  When they do the 'trunking' thing, you will have empty space underneath to do something with.  It has been a great adventure for me and I've loved all the changes as they have become necessary.  Gardening with palms has been a challenge and a great way to keep the imagination active!

Joe, your place is absolutely gorgeous!  Its been a long time since I was there.  

 

 

 

 

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Here's something that worked for us.  -  Cranes!

 

[JLeVert]

Thanks Keith.  Three of my  Sabal palmettos were pretty big when I got them, but there was no way a crane could get into the property, so I used football player students to set them in place.  It worked!  The boys (now grown men) ride by sometimes to see how 'their' trees are doing.  Two of the trees were planted when I wasn't there and the guys set them so they could stretch a volley ball net between them.  That was never permitted.

[sur4z]

My approach was/is a little different than Kim's or Bo's. My property came with a house on it, so I really had no area to have a "garden"...just areas around the house to plant palms. So after learning what grows easily in South Florida I started collecting palms that interested me and kept them on the side of the house until the yard spoke to me as to where I should plant them. For instance on the north east part of the property I have a large Bismarckia I planted a few years ago and I used it as the canopy under which I planted a Cocothrinax argentata and a Carpoxylon macrospermum under which is a J. altifrons which is next to a Serenoa repens next to which is a Kerriodoxa elegans and Licuala grandis. I have some specimens and other grouping around the rest of the house, including Jeff Searle's Areca catechu dwarf.

...and I have no interest in starting over...just adding to what's already in the ground.

 

[doranakandawatta]

Knowing what I know, I would start again as an ignorant and start to learn, discovering again how they grow or not, discovering again a website called IPS and a unknown Forum called PalmTalk, and meeting new friends; palm-addict gardeners I met earlier. 

Or maybe starting by visiting vallée de Mai and some botanic gardens?

 

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

4 hours ago, JLeVert said:

Thanks Keith.  Three of my  Sabal palmettos were pretty big when I got them, but there was no way a crane could get into the property, so I used football player students to set them in place.  It worked!  The boys (now grown men) ride by sometimes to see how 'their' trees are doing.  Two of the trees were planted when I wasn't there and the guys set them so they could stretch a volley ball net between them.  That was never permitted.

I love the volleyball net story.  The largest crane we hired was a 40 ton monster that lifted our 4 ton tree like it was a piece of paper.  I can't find the images to save my soul.    

[foxtail]

On 11/17/2015, 4:05:38, _Keith said:

OK, I get it.   My answer is "I wouldn't"    Seriously.   I have no desire to start over, and knowing what I know now, I would invest my money in something else.

Gals , cars & casino's? 

[palmsOrl]

I'd start with an acre of land in SE FL, 50 truckloads of good soil and one massive Floribunda order

[_Keith]

On 11/17/2015, 3:20:02, trioderob said:

that's a powerful statement

Let me explain a bit further.  I ran out of back yard and bought 3 acres to build a home and garden to "retire and expire in."   That was 14 years ago.   I love this garden, but I can see as I get older I just may not be willing or able to keep it up.   Cel and I have talked about moving.   But if we do, at my next place I would invest not in a big garden, but in a grand lanai and pool.  Due to my climate,  I'd probably stick a worry free mule or 2 around it and a few low care bullet proof under-story palms.  So, this is the reason of my response.   How we would each do it again, has broad implications on things other than the garden itself and the palms in it.  It is far more about the gardener.  All gardens are defined by the gardener and not the garden or the plants (palms) in it.

[sur4z]

On 11/18/2015, 2:03:21, sur4z said:

My approach was/is a little different than Kim's or Bo's. My property came with a house on it, so I really had no area to have a "garden"...just areas around the house to plant palms. So after learning what grows easily in South Florida I started collecting palms that interested me and kept them on the side of the house until the yard spoke to me as to where I should plant them. For instance on the north east part of the property I have a large Bismarckia I planted a few years ago and I used it as the canopy under which I planted a Cocothrinax argentata and a Carpoxylon macrospermum under which is a J. altifrons which is next to a Serenoa repens next to which is a Kerriodoxa elegans and Licuala grandis. I have some specimens and other grouping around the rest of the house, including Jeff Searle's Areca catechu dwarf.

...and I have no interest in starting over...just adding to what's already in the ground.

 

...and I left out my Verschaffeltia splendida in the NE grouping.

[Pete in Paradise Hills]

II would focus on pritchardia, brahea, archontophoenix,bismarckia, and the better growing dypsis, and plant fewer thirsty marginals than I have . i like watching trees grow. No more lemurs for me...

[trioderob]

that's profound

[Sabal Steve]

I'd plant more Sabals, and I'd buy a bigger lot.

[Daryl]

I used to go for the 'jungle' look, with a nice mixture of forms and sizes all together, each species 'filling' in the gap and complementing each other, creating a shady, informal, rambling jungle garden.

Just about to start my 5th Palm garden, and this time it will be different. A grid pattern with 15 feet centers...each row tall and then short...nah just kidding! 

Next time things will be spaced further apart...

1. Garden beds will contain species with similar requirements...sun/shade or dry/wet. That way when we do get dry periods you can irrigate the 'wet' zones and leave the dry zones alone.

2. Don't use other palms for canopy to shelter understorey palm species...use shade trees that are deep rooted and don't drop large fronds

3. Don't plant too close...although aesthetically pleasing, when it gets dry there is too much competition for ground moisture in limited areas

4. Prepare soil thoroughly before planting

5. Mulch  like crazy

6.. Don't let the weeds choke out the palms

7. Build raised garden beds on our hard clay subsoils

8. As I am getting older, plant the largest plants I can, especially the slower species

9. Contour your garden to capture any rainwater...runoff is such a waste!

Here's mine (hopefully)...

 

[Danilopez89]

I got bit by the palm bug in late 2012 when I saw my first royal palm here in the desert. If I were to start over I would plant some shade trees first. Like delonix regia and other tropical looking trees. Instead of planting a bunch of CIDP and Chilean mesquite around my property. It's not that I dislike CIDP or mesquite trees now but I do have a better idea of what would work better for my garden now that I've been into it for a few years. 

[Silas_Sancona]

A great thread, one I have thought long and hard about. Going forward,  starting with no less than 1-3 acres of bare land  is a must.. or, part of my goal. 

Beyond that,  comes alot of research. If I were staying here in Florida, getting the garden going would be fairly easy. Starting one in the desert is another proposition entirely.  Then again, thats where all the homework kicks in..  

My thought in such a challanging climate would be to model the garden around how a dry tropical forest is arranged,  starting with the hardiest fast growing trees for shade and  quick canopy.  Add in the hardier/ tougher palms. As these get established, add in larger sized trees (both decidious and evergreen) and allow them to overtop the shorter trees and create an environment where id place the more tender and/or experimental palms, etc. Instead of hauling in loads of mulch every year, I just allow any fallen leaf litter to sit where it falls and help build the soil/ hold in moisture. 

After that, sit back and let nature work out all the finer details. 

[Moose]

On 11/24/2015, 9:13:43, Daryl said:

I used to go for the 'jungle' look, with a nice mixture of forms and sizes all together, each species 'filling' in the gap and complementing each other, creating a shady, informal, rambling jungle garden.

Just about to start my 5th Palm garden, and this time it will be different. A grid pattern with 15 feet centers...each row tall and then short...nah just kidding! 

Next time things will be spaced further apart...

1. Garden beds will contain species with similar requirements...sun/shade or dry/wet. That way when we do get dry periods you can irrigate the 'wet' zones and leave the dry zones alone.

2. Don't use other palms for canopy to shelter understorey palm species...use shade trees that are deep rooted and don't drop large fronds

3. Don't plant too close...although aesthetically pleasing, when it gets dry there is too much competition for ground moisture in limited areas

4. Prepare soil thoroughly before planting

5. Mulch  like crazy

6.. Don't let the weeds choke out the palms

7. Build raised garden beds on our hard clay subsoils

8.'Plant a row of Dypsis 'Black Stem' across back property line as a wind break

9. As I am getting older, plant the largest plants I can, especially the slower species

10. Contour your garden to capture any rainwater...runoff is such a waste!

Here's mine (hopefully)...

 

 

[Daryl]

16 hours ago, Moose said:

 

To balance out the row of Dypsis sp.215 along the front fence? 

 

[Moose]

1 hour ago, Daryl said:

To balance out the row of Dypsis sp.215 along the front fence? 

 

Absolutely, balance is most important when establishing a new garden ! 

[cm05]

My palm garden is a future goal, in a better climate, California would be ideal, but I'd gladly take Florida or any other zone 9+ sunbelt state. I'd definitely plant out my current collection two W. filibustas, two T. fortunei, a S. louisiana, and maybe my C. nucifera.

P. dactylifera and S. palmetto are must haves for me, I know they're both common but they're favorites of mine. I also want a Phoenix hybrid or two, a P. roebelleni x canariensis sounds kind of cool. I want a small hedge of S. minor 'blountstown dwarf', and if I still had space, B. nobilis (which get HUGE) is another palm I'd like to have.

The possibilities are endless, there are so many palms I don't even know about, yesterday I saw a picture of a Pritchardia(?) something or other on here and now I want that too lol.

[Moose]

14 minutes ago, cm05 said:

My palm garden is a future goal, in a better climate, California would be ideal, but I'd gladly take Florida or any other zone 9+ sunbelt state. I'd definitely plant out my current collection two W. filibustas, two T. fortunei, a S. louisiana, and maybe my C. nucifera.

P. dactylifera and S. palmetto are must haves for me, I know they're both common but they're favorites of mine. I also want a Phoenix hybrid or two, a P. roebelleni x canariensis sounds kind of cool. I want a small hedge of S. minor 'blountstown dwarf', and if I still had space, B. nobilis (which get HUGE) is another palm I'd like to have.

The possibilities are endless, there are so many palms I don't even know about, yesterday I saw a picture of a Pritchardia(?) something or other on here and now I want that too lol.

Florida has zones 10 a & b also. If you got the $$$, USDA zone 11 South of Islamorada. 

[cm05]

32 minutes ago, Moose said:

Florida has zones 10 a & b also. If you got the $$$, USDA zone 11 South of Islamorada. 

Anything in Florida would be better than zone 7 lol, the warmer the better. If I ever hit the lotto, I'd have a house in the Keys. Part of me would be scared to live so far from the mainland, despite already living further away from the U.S. mainland than half of the Keys, the Keys are just so remote. U.S. 1 would take some getting used to.