This is what's become of us?

[Gonzer]

At the risk of getting bammed I'm going to take issue with the non-stop flood of ID requests that can/could be answered with a little legwork. In the days before the Internet you stockpiled books. Lots of books. On the many facets of horticulture/botany.

You learned how to differentiate plant families by their flowers, pines by their needles, soils by their composition, etc., etc. You learned leaf shapes, growth habits, weather by locale, how and why plants photosynthesize, etc., etc. You started backwards and worked your way forward in pegging a plant's identity by breaking down the components and coming to a conclusion as best you could. If that wasn't the correct answer then, and only then, did you seek outside advice. It is/was a game of learning.

Nowadays the Internet has made people lazy, complacent, and unmotivated to use their noodle and try and figure out a plant's ID by the process of elimination since the answer is just a shout away. Botanical Latin is another facet of our hobby that seems to be going the way of 8-track tapes, nice to have and reminisce about but rarely used. The hobby is now muddled with cute nicknames and nonsensical trade names. First thing I was ever taught was to use Latin and stay away from common names if possible.

This is definitely a rant towards folks who use other people's backs to get what they want, not realizing that they're only cheating themselves by not doing any type of due diligence. You can only improve your knowledge base and become more well-rounded by studying and learning from ....books!

[Neil C]

I agree with your stance on Latin names not being used enough but I think the posting of photos of plants to be identified should be encouraged. Many folk love plants but really have no idea where to start on the internet when it comes to getting an ID. Myself included. I have a good general knowledge of most plant families but if I saw say a nice flowering vine I'd be at a loss where to start.

If someone sees a plant that they like, bothers to take a photo and uploads it and asks what it is then that to me is enough interest for me to reply if I know what it is. A really common and instantly recognizable plant to some might be a rare botanical gardens plant to others.

I love plant books too but have learnt so much from browsing the internet for all sorts of obscure articles and growers first hand observations. Books are great but they are by no means the only way to learn.

Just my few cents worth.

Regards Neil

[Jeff Searle]

Let me share something very interesting that happened to me recently that directly relates to this. Last year a dear friend of mine, David McLean who was one of my college professors and a well known horticulturist here in south Florida passed away. It was a huge lost to the plant community. His wife then decided a few months ago that she would invite some of David's closest friends over to the house for a book give away. It was a nice social gathering for all that came and then on her word, she told all of us that if there were any books we were interested in, start going through them and take what we wanted. I went home with approx. 25 books or more. e had several hundred.

      And one of these books was called, Tropical and Subtropical Trees. Written by, Margaret Barwick. And soon after I brought home all these books, I read this book from cover to cover. And......I learned something very, very important that night. I learned that, on page 266 in reading about the genus Maniltoa,( extremely rare in cultivation ) in which I have one small tree still in a pot, that I assumed it was grown strictly from seed only. But it stated that cuttings under mist is also a way to propagate this tree. I was excited to see this! The very next day I took 4 cuttings and placed in my mist house. To my surprise, after a few weeks I found two of them that had rooted. And this was something that I read in one of my new books. Loved it!!!

[Darold Petty]

 YES to the previous posts ! 

[edric]

Hi Greg, my sentiments exactly, this is the reason I have spent nearly 7000 hours on Palmpedia, Ed

[Palmarum]

[Gonzer]

Good responses, thanks for the support. Jeff's reply highlights my intention to the fact that many, many observations and practices in horticulture are the result of years of study, field work, and experimentation that were duly noted and put down on paper years ago, way before cyber-space. Many of these valuable nuggets of information can only be found in the published works of the authors who were at the top of their field. A lot of this has not found its way onto the Internet and this very fact is what's holding back many of the young hobbyists today, who rely on instant gratification instead of research.

To this day I think I can still gauge a fellow horticulturist's passion and intent on the size of their library and it's content. The best often hand me spiral-bound notebooks complete with notations, thoughts, and sometimes little drawings that, when used as a resource, make the whole picture just that more complete. You can have your cake and eat it too but I wanna know the ingredients and how the damn thing's baked!

I'm not disparaging many of the ID requests I see, just those that I perceive that can be found by having the basic knowledge of what makes up this wonderful hobby we all enjoy so much.

[Pando]

Nicely said Gonzer. Internet is an incredible resource, and it has enabled many of us to pick up this hobby rather quickly. However, due to the relative rarity of this hobby, not everything is there yet, and what's there is often mixed in with information that's not very credible.

It's similar with music - anyone can fire up a synthesizer at Wal-mart and fiddle a tune. To become a musician, it takes a lifetime of study and practice, often with paper and pencil in hand.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Let me share something very interesting that happened to me recently that directly relates to this. Last year a dear friend of mine, David McLean who was one of my college professors and a well known horticulturist here in south Florida passed away. It was a huge lost to the plant community. His wife then decided a few months ago that she would invite some of David's closest friends over to the house for a book give away. It was a nice social gathering for all that came and then on her word, she told all of us that if there were any books we were interested in, start going through them and take what we wanted. I went home with approx. 25 books or more. e had several hundred.

      And one of these books was called, Tropical and Subtropical Trees. Written by, Margaret Barwick. And soon after I brought home all these books, I read this book from cover to cover. And......I learned something very, very important that night. I learned that, on page 266 in reading about the genus Maniltoa,( extremely rare in cultivation ) in which I have one small tree still in a pot, that I assumed it was grown strictly from seed only. But it stated that cuttings under mist is also a way to propagate this tree. I was excited to see this! The very next day I took 4 cuttings and placed in my mist house. To my surprise, after a few weeks I found two of them that had rooted. And this was something that I read in one of my new books. Loved it!!!

I love Barwick's book!

[doranakandawatta]

Hi Greg, my sentiments exactly, this is the reason I have spent nearly 7000 hours on Palmpedia, Ed

Ed,
I hope you'll spend some 7000 hours more on Palmpedia, I am a frequent visitor there 

[PalmatierMeg]

Amen to all of it. I use Latin names for my palms, which often flusters other people, who usually give me a bovine stare (unless they make a remark about me being a smarta**). I can't stand palm sellers that should know better who use cutesy names for their wares and leave me to figure out exactly what they are peddling.  What the h*!! is a "Happy Palm"?  If you are going to invest serious time, money & energy in palms, you need to learn the nomenclature down to genus and species (and the plural of genus is "genera" not genuses). That is the first thing I realized when I joined PT and saw the experts slinging Latin names to and fro. And that meant investing in and reading books. The Craft/Riffle book is my palm go to reference. If I can't find the exact species I'm looking for there I hit the internet for Palmpedia, PACSOA and other reputable sites. If, after all that, I can't find what I need I go to PT for expert opinion. But I love to do my own research and I love slinging those Latin names. Once you learn them, you'll love slinging them too.

[Gonzer]

Once you learn them, you'll love slinging them too.

 

Can't get any better than that.

 

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Non plant people get tired of hearing me use latin names so if there is a standard common name I use that.  But I too am a little chagrined to now and then encounter a grower who should know better, but uses common names because he has not bothered to learn the latin bi-nomial.  Some things like Coconut, Foxtail or Queen palms seems a little pretentious to use the scientific name when they are so ubiquitous and everyone knows what they are.

 

I guess I was lucky to have developed an appetite for books and hands on knowledge before the great equalizer, that is the internet, was invented.  I don't mind ID questions and sometimes enjoy the challenge of identifying a plant for someone who does not know its name.  I don't enjoy ID quizzes from people who DO know the name but just want to stump the panel. 

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Certain professionals that use latin in their everyday lives, like doctors and lawyers, look at you with a different eye if they hear you using scientific names or specific scientific terms for horticulture.  They usually think they are unique in understanding such things.

[Really full garden]

Tropical Looking Plants other than Palms was one of my favorite forums.It seemed to attract a wide variety of people from all over the world.I particularly enjoyed the posts about bromeliads and aroids. 

Discussing Palms Worldwide is so California centric that it rarely interests me anymore.

I think these forums are reflective of life.There are givers and takers.There needs to be a nice balance of both to keep the forum active and healthy.

[Pip]

One of the reasons I joined this forum is so I don't lose the ability to use botanical names. One of my favorite subjects I studied while gaining my Diploma of Garden Design was Advanced Plantsmanship. The lecturer was from Adelaide University, every week he would cover table table tops with random cuttings of plants commonly and not so commonly used in commercial landscaping and domestic gardens, the class would then have to try attempt to identify, before discussing the real identity of the plant and how to accurately do it.

Though botanical names are reviewed and revised I find it is fun to look through old plant books and see something familiar with a completely different name.

[LJG]

Hi Greg, my sentiments exactly, this is the reason I have spent nearly 7000 hours on Palmpedia, Ed

Our non-profit (The IPS) could have used your services Ed.

[LJG]

At the risk of getting bammed I'm going to take issue with the non-stop flood of ID requests that can/could be answered with a little legwork. In the days before the Internet you stockpiled books. Lots of books. On the many facets of horticulture/botany.

You learned how to differentiate plant families by their flowers, pines by their needles, soils by their composition, etc., etc. You learned leaf shapes, growth habits, weather by locale, how and why plants photosynthesize, etc., etc. You started backwards and worked your way forward in pegging a plant's identity by breaking down the components and coming to a conclusion as best you could. If that wasn't the correct answer then, and only then, did you seek outside advice. It is/was a game of learning.

Nowadays the Internet has made people lazy, complacent, and unmotivated to use their noodle and try and figure out a plant's ID by the process of elimination since the answer is just a shout away. Botanical Latin is another facet of our hobby that seems to be going the way of 8-track tapes, nice to have and reminisce about but rarely used. The hobby is now muddled with cute nicknames and nonsensical trade names. First thing I was ever taught was to use Latin and stay away from common names if possible.

This is definitely a rant towards folks who use other people's backs to get what they want, not realizing that they're only cheating themselves by not doing any type of due diligence. You can only improve your knowledge base and become more well-rounded by studying and learning from ....books!

I have had on a few occasion people over to my garden that seemed to know there stuff on PT. In one case, a member (no longer post here) seemed to have an answer for everything. That person came to my house and he was a different person. He couldn't ID a plant to save his life. I would ask horticulture questions he posted about here and guess what? He had no idea how to answer questions in person. Google makes a lot of people smart. Live garden tours or trips into the wild are truth serum. Google of course is a great tool to use and learn from. Same as using a book. But what I find is many use it to have the answer immediately and forget the information when needed. Search engines created a world of Internet experts. 

[John Case]

Sometimes I like to associate the incorrect name to the photos I submit....sometimes get some spirited discussion! Often, the correct ID comes up quickly, sometimes not at all!

Edited October 30, 2015 by John Case

[Pando]

Here's a classic:

Edited October 31, 2015 by Pando

[Brian]

Gonzer,

With all due respect, I think alot of this comes down to having access to plants, material and their names, not just books. I was born and raised in Southern California however my love for plants developed while I lived as an expat in Mexico over the last 25 years. Im sure if I still lived in S Calf. with this passion I would be just as knowledgeable about rare plants as the best of them but I dont live there now and I have very little access to plants, material, or garden tours. Regarding books, I have probably more books on rare plants than most people on this forum and I have read them several times, in detail, yet at times I still struggel with ID's for what seem like the simplist of identifications. Does this make me lazy, complacent, and unmotivated?

People dont realize how lucky they are to be able to buy rare plants from places like Floribunda, Jungle Music or any of the other nurseries. Imaginen growing all of your plants from seed and then having to ID them. Some of us have no choose, if we want rare plants in our garden then this is what we have to do. 

Every time I have have asked for an ID on this forum I felt like I was asking for a favor and tried to ask in the most respectful way possible. This tread now makes me feel very uncomfortable about asking for future ID's. Is this really the direction we want to take Palmtalk, where knowledge should be shared? 

 

 

[Josh-O]

At the risk of getting bammed I'm going to take issue with the non-stop flood of ID requests that can/could be answered with a little legwork. In the days before the Internet you stockpiled books. Lots of books. On the many facets of horticulture/botany.

You learned how to differentiate plant families by their flowers, pines by their needles, soils by their composition, etc., etc. You learned leaf shapes, growth habits, weather by locale, how and why plants photosynthesize, etc., etc. You started backwards and worked your way forward in pegging a plant's identity by breaking down the components and coming to a conclusion as best you could. If that wasn't the correct answer then, and only then, did you seek outside advice. It is/was a game of learning.

Nowadays the Internet has made people lazy, complacent, and unmotivated to use their noodle and try and figure out a plant's ID by the process of elimination since the answer is just a shout away. Botanical Latin is another facet of our hobby that seems to be going the way of 8-track tapes, nice to have and reminisce about but rarely used. The hobby is now muddled with cute nicknames and nonsensical trade names. First thing I was ever taught was to use Latin and stay away from common names if possible.

This is definitely a rant towards folks who use other people's backs to get what they want, not realizing that they're only cheating themselves by not doing any type of due diligence. You can only improve your knowledge base and become more well-rounded by studying and learning from ....books!

I have had on a few occasion people over to my garden that seemed to know there stuff on PT. In one case, a member (no longer post here) seemed to have an answer for everything. That person came to my house and he was a different person. He couldn't ID a plant to save his life. I would ask horticulture questions he posted about here and guess what? He had no idea how to answer questions in person. Google makes a lot of people smart. Live garden tours or trips into the wild are truth serum. Google of course is a great tool to use and learn from. Same as using a book. But what I find is many use it to have the answer immediately and forget the information when needed. Search engines created a world of Internet experts. 

Well said Lenn! I know the feeling.

[Josh-O]

At the risk of getting bammed I'm going to take issue with the non-stop flood of ID requests that can/could be answered with a little legwork. In the days before the Internet you stockpiled books. Lots of books. On the many facets of horticulture/botany.

You learned how to differentiate plant families by their flowers, pines by their needles, soils by their composition, etc., etc. You learned leaf shapes, growth habits, weather by locale, how and why plants photosynthesize, etc., etc. You started backwards and worked your way forward in pegging a plant's identity by breaking down the components and coming to a conclusion as best you could. If that wasn't the correct answer then, and only then, did you seek outside advice. It is/was a game of learning.

Nowadays the Internet has made people lazy, complacent, and unmotivated to use their noodle and try and figure out a plant's ID by the process of elimination since the answer is just a shout away. Botanical Latin is another facet of our hobby that seems to be going the way of 8-track tapes, nice to have and reminisce about but rarely used. The hobby is now muddled with cute nicknames and nonsensical trade names. First thing I was ever taught was to use Latin and stay away from common names if possible.

This is definitely a rant towards folks who use other people's backs to get what they want, not realizing that they're only cheating themselves by not doing any type of due diligence. You can only improve your knowledge base and become more well-rounded by studying and learning from ....books!

I totally agree with you Gonzer.

Like Len said below, it funny how so many people think they know palms because they google the name and post descriptions and local details when they don't even have gardens of their own or have any experience apart from internet searches. I have has this problem at my little humble garden when palm folks come over. I often bite my tongue when this happens. This is why I really value garden tours, PSSC meetings or kicking back with a palm old timers over a cold beer and soaking up the experience. I'm a big advocate of books, ID charts, palm journals and yes the internet (palmpedia) mainly.

 

great thread Gonzer!!

[Gonzer]

Gonzer,

With all due respect, I think alot of this comes down to having access to plants, material and their names, not just books. I was born and raised in Southern California however my love for plants developed while I lived as an expat in Mexico over the last 25 years. Im sure if I still lived in S Calf. with this passion I would be just as knowledgeable about rare plants as the best of them but I dont live there now and I have very little access to plants, material, or garden tours. Regarding books, I have probably more books on rare plants than most people on this forum and I have read them several times, in detail, yet at times I still struggel with ID's for what seem like the simplist of identifications. Does this make me lazy, complacent, and unmotivated?

People dont realize how lucky they are to be able to buy rare plants from places like Floribunda, Jungle Music or any of the other nurseries. Imaginen growing all of your plants from seed and then having to ID them. Some of us have no choose, if we want rare plants in our garden then this is what we have to do. 

Every time I have have asked for an ID on this forum I felt like I was asking for a favor and tried to ask in the most respectful way possible. This tread now makes me feel very uncomfortable about asking for future ID's. Is this really the direction we want to take Palmtalk, where knowledge should be shared? 

 

 

Brian,

There's no reason at all to feel uncomfortable asking for help. Far from it. The 'Discussing Palms' sub-forum was/is not the bone of contention here; I'll leave it at that. The aim of this thread is to get folks who CONSISTENTLY ask for assistance , day to day, hour to hour, concerning the most mundane of plants. Those plants whose identity would be revealed with a little legwork. As I stated, the Internet has made textbook identification almost passé with few exceptions. Not to say this can't be a valuable asset, it is, it's just how much a person depends upon it that I question. Give a monkey a thousand years and a keyboard and he will surely produce the works of Shakespeare. Care must given that the tomes authored by horticulture's premier botanists are not pushed aside in favor of instantaneous recognition. Back in the day we used to hand in our scratch-paper along with the test; gotta show 'em you worked it and didn't copy someone else's work.

I've seen plenty of forums where this happens and, as you said, is this the direction we want to go. No it isn't but every forum I've been acquainted with always has a few posters who tap the source just to get their post count up.

 

[_Keith]

It is a double edged sword.   Some people are like me, a self admitted worst palm identifier in the world.   Of course I never pretended to be anything but that.  I live in Zone 9a and when visiting some great gardens with some great host on my business travels in the last couple of years, I was constantly seeing palms that I was seeing in person for the first time in my life, and in many cases the only time I will ever see them.  Many of you live and breathe this stuff, so don't be offended when a more casual hobbyist ask for an ID.  Yeah, some are lazy, but others don't have the foundation to even know where to start.   I mean if someone can answer a question off the top of their head without even thinking, why spend hours researching.  Just ask them. That is what experts are for, right?   So yeah, even I, still a novice has been around long enough to see some of these threads repeat over and over and go geez, no one forces me to read them or reply.   It is my choice.   And in the unlikely scenario that I am actually able to help someone I am happy to do so.  I get pretty dang impressed by some folks, too.   Fastfeat constantly amazes me, and when I put up a non-palm ID question every now and then, among others, he is the responder I always wait for because if no one else knows, he will.

Edited October 31, 2015 by _Keith

[DoomsDave]

 

 

{Boxes above don't want to go away, even when I didn't want to quote.}

 

Brian, ask anything you want, when you want.

I like this forum because I can ask about more than just palms, and have a prayer of getting a good answer, from finding a website hosting service, to recommendations for cars and vacations. Not everyone appreciates it when I do that, I suppose, but I appreciate the good replies when I get them. (E.g., PSSC is still using its awesome hosting service, thanks to a PT-er referral/suggestion.)

I do appreciate the finer points of ID, but as a review of threads here shows, there's always something new to know. Great books get superseded all the time. Exhibit "A" is name changing for Beccariophoenix, among many others. 

So don't be intimidated. Ask away.

Edited November 6, 2015 by DoomsDave