Robusta, Filifera or Filibusta?

[OrangeEnzoPS4]

Bought this palm from eBay. It was advertised as a Robusta but it looks different. 

Edited October 16, 2015 by OrangeEnzoPS4

[Pal Meir]

Why do you think that it looks different?

[OrangeEnzoPS4]

It has darker leaves and a darker trunk compared to my other Robustas. And the threads on it are thicker. 

[John Case]

Too small to tell. These 2 species have become mutts and it is hard to tell which is which. Key identifiers:

1) W. robusta - narrtow trunk, grows to 100 ft., filifera, thicker trunk grow to 60 feet.

2) W. robusta has reddish markings on petiole, filifera is green

3) W. robusta leaves are a green color, filifera is a grayish green.

I think most of what we see in the marketplace today shows both and they are filibusta. Yours are so young it is difficult to tell.

 

[Jos Mannaart]

here pictures of both species.

Robusta at the front filifera at the back, have much larger leaves.

Wenn you have pure robusta there is now single spot of white at the back, but shiny green

 

[Pal Meir]

Yes, if your Washi will look after – say – half a century like these Washis in Málaga it is certainly a real W. robusta. But now as it is still juvenile it is hard to decide.

 

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

That's undoubtedly a robusta juvenile. After you grow thousands of each it gets easier to id. 

[Pal Meir]

That's undoubtedly a robusta juvenile. After you grow thousands of each it gets easier to id. 

This was also my impression, all my W. robusta seedlings looked similar …

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

I have some pictures that I have been meaning to upload that will add a little more detail to the subtle differences between 100%pure filifera and robusta/hybrid juveniles.

[Jos Mannaart]

Have seedling overhere which was growing under filifera, picked 5 weeks ago in Turkey, even the first leaves are little grayish. I'm pretty sure that next year you can see if its 100% filifera or not. filifera seeds overthere were all much smaller and harvest 8 trees in one day. Robusta seeds were left on the trees. Wenn they x so easy, why should they harvest wenn 100s large robustas are in the area?

[John Case]

Here is a photo of a W. filifera (left) and a W. robusta (right).

The differences can be pretty stark when the mature trees are right next to each other.

These trees are on the waterfront in Antioch, CA on the South bank of the San Joaquin River about 40 miles from the San Francisco Bay.

 

[Matthew92]

I'm really getting to love the pure filifera. Looks less weedy than robusta. Hope to give it a go sometime.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Here is a photo of a W. filifera (left) and a W. robusta (right).

The differences can be pretty stark when the mature trees are right next to each other.

These trees are on the waterfront in Antioch, CA on the South bank of the San Joaquin River about 40 miles from the San Francisco Bay.

 

John, From the looks of it the palm on the left is hybridized and not a pure filifera. This palm is carrying way too many leaves below the horizon line to be pure filifera.

[John Case]

Here is a photo of a W. filifera (left) and a W. robusta (right).

The differences can be pretty stark when the mature trees are right next to each other.

These trees are on the waterfront in Antioch, CA on the South bank of the San Joaquin River about 40 miles from the San Francisco Bay.

 

John, From the looks of it the palm on the left is hybridized and not a pure filifera. This palm is carrying way too many leaves below the horizon line to be pure filifera.

Here is a photo of a W. filifera (left) and a W. robusta (right).

The differences can be pretty stark when the mature trees are right next to each other.

These trees are on the waterfront in Antioch, CA on the South bank of the San Joaquin River about 40 miles from the San Francisco Bay.

 

John, From the looks of it the palm on the left is hybridized and not a pure filifera. This palm is carrying way too many leaves below the horizon line to be pure filifera.

Agreed....I think it shows enough of the traits of the filifera to demonstrate the differences, though.....

[John Case]

Joseph,

Take a look at some W. filifera photos on www.palmpedia.net, holding a similar numbers of leaves. Provide your input, please.

 

Many thanks!

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

Agreed. 

One a side note after growing thousands of hybrids and pure filifera here are a few pics of traits that young 100% pure filifera will have that no hybrid I have seen will.  If your youngster doesn't look like this it is not pure filifera, in my opinion.  Note all of the threads, but some hybrids appear to be just as "Hairy", but when side by side there is a major difference. The real differentiator to me appears to be the "fuzz" that is left on the frond.  The next picture will show this more clearly.

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

This thread is not allowing me to post any additional pictures for some reason, even though they are smaller than 8.1mB.

Edited October 22, 2015 by TexasColdHardyPalms

[SailorBold]

Here is a juvenile W. filifera... and a picture of it's parents which are in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  The parent trees are isolated from hybridization (from what I understand).  There is some red on aging petioles.. but leaves emerge bright green as you can see in the pics. The older retained leaf bases are not as red when compared to robusta and leaves are duller green in color and spit at the tips (not sure if that is an identifying characteristic tho)

 

These IMO are true 100% filifera palms..including their offspring...  I have a large 12-14'  "Filifera" that I am thinking when compared to these trees is not 100% true filifera..(pretty sure it came from South Texas...)

 

At any rate those parent trees have survived extreme cold..

[Jos Mannaart]

Joseph,

Take a look at some W. filifera photos on www.palmpedia.net, holding a similar numbers of leaves. Provide your input, please.

 

Many thanks!

My filifera seeds are much smaller than foto on palmpedia. Can anyone tell me if filifera seeds are always smaller?

We had lots of robusta overthere and few filifera. All the filifera has much smaller seeds and much larger flowers ends.

[John Case]

Here is a juvenile W. filifera... and a picture of it's parents which are in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  The parent trees are isolated from hybridization (from what I understand).  There is some red on aging petioles.. but leaves emerge bright green as you can see in the pics. The older retained leaf bases are not as red when compared to robusta and leaves are duller green in color and spit at the tips (not sure if that is an identifying characteristic tho)

 

These IMO are true 100% filifera palms..including their offspring...  I have a large 12-14'  "Filifera" that I am thinking when compared to these trees is not 100% true filifera..(pretty sure it came from South Texas...)

 

At any rate those parent trees have survived extreme cold..

This juvenile looks to be primarily filifera but the red streaks on the petioles makes me think there is a little robusta lurking in there....I am not a trained botaniist but all of the descriptions I have seen are that the filiferas have only green petioles.....

[topwater]

Another difference Ive noticed between the two is the inflorescence.  With filifera it will hang way below the petticoat whereas with robusta it hangs about even with it.  This is no heip with juveniles of course.  Id like to learn  how to ID the hybrid, Im pretty sure I want a few sky dusters, but I haven't seen any in my neighborhood yet.  I know a lot of the SoCal guys aren't so fond, but I freakin' love Washingtonia.

 

[topwater]

Is it possible to differentiate the two with just the hastula and costa or are the too similar?

[TexasColdHardyPalms]

The hastula is too similiar when juvenile for me to make a determination either way. The hybrids seem to retain the longer filifera looking hastula. An over abundance of threads and tomentose frond seem to be the clear difference from what I have observed.   Bottom line is if you need a pure filifera for your climate don't buy anything from the box store and choose your nursery carefully. 

[topwater]

At my office I have six absolutely gorgeous filifera  I planted in '95.  However, when they get really old the trunk rot starts and they start to look worse instead of better.  Ive heard that filifera just doesn't like the 100% humidity along the gulf coast.  In 1995, I had no idea that there were two kinds of Mexican fan palms, I thought they were all W. robusta.  Meanwhile, the real robustas that came with my new house outgrew everthing in the neighborhood hands down, making them major lightning rods.  The first hit took out two trees, the second hit took out my tallest one, along with half the electrical appliances in my house, 65 inch TV on a surge protector included.  However, at the same time I found a huge Bizzie at a ridiculously low price, so I can't complain too hard.  If I can find some filibustas I'm going for it.

[Phoenikakias]

Another difference Ive noticed between the two is the inflorescence.  With filifera it will hang way below the petticoat whereas with robusta it hangs about even with it.  This is no heip with juveniles of course.  Id like to learn  how to ID the hybrid, Im pretty sure I want a few sky dusters, but I haven't seen any in my neighborhood yet.  I know a lot of the SoCal guys aren't so fond, but I freakin' love Washingtonia.

 

Yet experts concluded that below specimen is nevertheless a filibusta. Now go figure out...

[_Keith]

Here is a juvenile W. filifera... and a picture of it's parents which are in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  The parent trees are isolated from hybridization (from what I understand).  There is some red on aging petioles.. but leaves emerge bright green as you can see in the pics. The older retained leaf bases are not as red when compared to robusta and leaves are duller green in color and spit at the tips (not sure if that is an identifying characteristic tho)

 

These IMO are true 100% filifera palms..including their offspring...  I have a large 12-14'  "Filifera" that I am thinking when compared to these trees is not 100% true filifera..(pretty sure it came from South Texas...)

 

At any rate those parent trees have survived extreme cold..

This juvenile looks to be primarily filifera but the red streaks on the petioles makes me think there is a little robusta lurking in there....I am not a trained botaniist but all of the descriptions I have seen are that the filiferas have only green petioles.....

Due to the armament, it would appear that there is more than a little robusta in it.  In a similar post I made a while back, I learned a few things about filifera.  See the article quoted in Axel's post.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/42524-how-much-fili-how-much-busta/

 

[Jos Mannaart]

Even seedlings have a difference.

Compare these foto's

Leafs from robusta are shiny green at front and back and from filifera definitly not shiny

 

[Jos Mannaart]

foto to compare the seeds.

Seeds from robusta tree at the right from filifera tree at the left and these are realy much smaller

Picked from same area at the same day in september this year

[SailorBold]

Here is a juvenile W. filifera... and a picture of it's parents which are in Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.  The parent trees are isolated from hybridization (from what I understand).  There is some red on aging petioles.. but leaves emerge bright green as you can see in the pics. The older retained leaf bases are not as red when compared to robusta and leaves are duller green in color and spit at the tips (not sure if that is an identifying characteristic tho)

 

These IMO are true 100% filifera palms..including their offspring...  I have a large 12-14'  "Filifera" that I am thinking when compared to these trees is not 100% true filifera..(pretty sure it came from South Texas...)

 

At any rate those parent trees have survived extreme cold..

This juvenile looks to be primarily filifera but the red streaks on the petioles makes me think there is a little robusta lurking in there....I am not a trained botaniist but all of the descriptions I have seen are that the filiferas have only green petioles.....

Due to the armament, it would appear that there is more than a little robusta in it.  In a similar post I made a while back, I learned a few things about filifera.  See the article quoted in Axel's post.

Interesting..  so until the palms gain larger size there is no way to tell.. That's what I gathered.  I cant tell in the photo if the mature trees have retained that attribute or not..

 

Well that's the seed source lol

 

 

[SailorBold]

Here is a pic of the hastula on my juvenile..  

[Jos Mannaart]

The palms on the pictures of SailerBold are not 100% filifera, wenn you take a look at the size of the seeds and the way they grow all together is a lot robusta. Flowers of filifera are much longer than and clusters of seeds don't grow together to one large. Clusters from filifera seeds stay far away from each other, about 25-35 cm.

The leafs from filifera are around 1,5x size of robusta after couple of years

[Jos Mannaart]

Here is a pic of the hastula on my juvenile..  

There is filifera in it.

Foto from Alanya again with higher resolution to compare

[Phoenikakias]

Even seedlings have a difference.

Compare these foto's

Leafs from robusta are shiny green at front and back and from filifera definitly not shiny

 

Strange, I would expect SCARLET RED stems of the robusta seedlings! Maybe in the interior of a room away from direct sun, red coloration misses entirely...

[Jos Mannaart]

haha away from direct sun?

I live in the Netherlands, No direct sun at all at the moment for days!!!!

They grow inside overhere, think that will explain.

Took the left one as seedling from your friends in Turkey Konstantinos.

Was in a glass of water for over one week at the balcony, were it made roots of over 10 cm during that time.

In my suitcase home and now slowly but steady growing inside, new roots all over the soil.

Put seeds  filifera and robusta in same moisty soil, robusta comes up and filifera rot away.

Now trying filifera in ziplock on wet paper at 20 degrees C

The filifera seeds inside are only around 3 mm, robusta around 5-6mm

[_Keith]

Link in earlier post did not appear.   In this thread is the information about filifera and armament.

 

 

[Brad Mondel]

Sailorbold… your palm is not a pure Filifera. I see these everyday in SoCal. The red streak on the petiole is a dead give away, the fronds are bright green, and they are also wide. All traits of a robusta or hybrid. If you look closely at Jos's seedlings you will see the tawny color at the leaf sheath as well. 

Edited October 24, 2015 by Brad Mondel

[John Case]

Sailorbold… your palm is not a pure Filifera. I see these everyday in SoCal. The red streak on the petiole is a dead give away, the fronds are bright green, and they are also wide. All traits of a robusta or hybrid. If you look closely at Jos's seedlings you will see the tawny color at the leaf sheath as well. 

filifera leaves are a washed out green, or gray-green, not shiny at all, even as strap seedlings.....I am in concurrence with Mr. Mondel.

 

[Brad Mondel]

Look closey at this robusta. The older fronds have the tawny colored petioles but the new ones are green.

It's because the new petiole is not exposed yet. The Palm above in the original post does not have any old fronds, only new. That's why it's petioles are still green. 

[SailorBold]

Well they all turn tawny red at some point right?   I will need to go on a palm hunt...quite interesting indeed.  A safari is in order..  Thanks all for the info !

[OrangeEnzoPS4]

Thanks everyone. I'm still not sure what it is though. 

I recently got this 'Robusta' seedling too. Same colour as the larger 'Robusta'.