Hi Folks,

I've searched through old posts on the forum, and I see that there have been examples of Cyrtostachys renda in Florida in the past. But I can't tell whether any examples of this palm are still to be found after the 2010 freeze. Were there places in FL where this species survived the last bad freeze?

I had red & green lipsticks that I grew in pots till they were 8-9' tall and too large to move inside during cold spells (below 50F). They love my summers but can't survive my winters in the ground. You will have to keep them in pots and be prepared to move them and house them in winter - dollies and a hand truck are musts. I ended up selling mine to a guy who lives north of Tampa and said he was prepared to meet their tropical needs. Never heard from him so I don't know what kind of luck he had keeping them alive.

Otherwise, I had good luck with this palm. I kept them under shadecloth on my lanai, made sure they never dried out. Contrary to their reputation for slowness, mine grew and clustered like crazy and outgrew my accommodations in 4-5 years. Fabulous palms but I don't have the energy to wrestle 200lbs into/out of my house a dozen times or more a winter.

I took these photos in 2012

Cyrtostachys elegans - green lipstick

Cyrtostachys renda - red lipstick

There is a big one in a private garden in Miami that can be seen in this thread:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/22854-sfps-spring-garden-tour-miami-florida/

There are apparently more in that general area also, but that one's the biggest. If you're able to find the hybrid that's been sold at the last few Searle sales, you might have a chance with it. It's not as red but it's much hardier. I think Floribunda sells it, but I'm not positive.

I tried one of the "cold hardy" hybrids. It croaked before I could test its hardiness. However, I still doubt it could survive winters even in coastal central FL. And lipsticks are not cheap.

One more thing: I was warned that this genus is highly prone to a lethal cold weather fungus. So, from Nov. to Mar. I sprayed mine with a fungicide containing mancozeb every 30 days. I used Southern Ag Dithene 45, a yellow powder I mixed with water and applied with a pressure sprayer over every sq. inch of my lipsticks. Seemed to work so I use it on my other potted tropical palms.

I realize I can't grow one in my location, but I wanted to know whether any in FL had survived the last bad freeze. It looks like the answer is in the affirmative

Ken Johnson adding some color to mine

It survived the 2010 freeze in the ground

Fantastic. May I ask where your located and how it's planted?

I'm not sure if they all survived, but there are certainly survivors in the Lower Keys. In the 2010 freeze the low in Key West (and thus also throughout the basically identical climate of the Lower Keys from Bahia Honda to Key West) matched the 150 (or so)-year-old record of 41F and we all know that the big deal was that the temps were depressed consistently for some very long time. What I remember is that Pritchardia pacifica looked like hell down here after that long assault, Artocarpus altilis largely defoliated--even in some places had twig/branch die-back (burned to the ground in the upper keys even though they suckered their way back)--and Cocos didn't handle it all too gracefully either...though I do think they looked better than the P. pacifica. This past winter we had 48F here one morning, it was below 50F for four hours. My 7' Cyrtostachys renda in the ground (just planted last year) didn't flinch and is doing fine, no damage whatsoever to foliage. Though the spear I marked didn't budge upward for a week. The hybrid with C. elegans is another matter entirely. It continued to push and is remarkably faster and also it seems more drought-tolerant than C. renda here...and my own 12' specimen has a spectacular crownshaft coloration...though I have no idea as to comparative cold hardiness.

My own speculation is that, if planted in water, with a pond-heater in the water during winter, C. renda would survive the occasional cold nights down somewhere into the 30s, in many areas of the 10b/11a-b coastal and island belt of southern Florida where winter morning minima are relatively warm and the winter is very short. I've heard a little about the theory on a fungus though I personally am a little skeptical of such a claim in the absence of any true studies on the subject. It's worth trying the experiment where you can find affordable plants. For some reason, in Florida, "affordable" seems to be the rub.

It almost makes we want to try it. I made a small pond for the kids, but it is no longer serving a functional purpose. (They caught a turtle; we built a little pond for the turtle; the turtle then escaped to parts unknown.) I can almost see the beautiful red and green growing out of what is now a fetid water hole. I think my yard is pretty mild, but I know it's not mild enough for a ceiling wax palm (even with a pond heater) :-(

Here are mine in Key West at the Audubon House. The largest one in the rear is over 12ft. The "small" one is about 8ft. They get full sun all day and are loving it in the pond.

Lovely. Must you provide heat and/or protection?

I'm not sure if they all survived, but there are certainly survivors in the Lower Keys. In the 2010 freeze the low in Key West (and thus also throughout the basically identical climate of the Lower Keys from Bahia Honda to Key West) matched the 150 (or so)-year-old record of 41F and we all know that the big deal was that the temps were depressed consistently for some very long time. What I remember is that Pritchardia pacifica looked like hell down here after that long assault, Artocarpus altilis largely defoliated--even in some places had twig/branch die-back (burned to the ground in the upper keys even though they suckered their way back)--and Cocos didn't handle it all too gracefully either...though I do think they looked better than the P. pacifica. This past winter we had 48F here one morning, it was below 50F for four hours. My 7' Cyrtostachys renda in the ground (just planted last year) didn't flinch and is doing fine, no damage whatsoever to foliage. Though the spear I marked didn't budge upward for a week. The hybrid with C. elegans is another matter entirely. It continued to push and is remarkably faster and also it seems more drought-tolerant than C. renda here...and my own 12' specimen has a spectacular crownshaft coloration...though I have no idea as to comparative cold hardiness.

My own speculation is that, if planted in water, with a pond-heater in the water during winter, C. renda would survive the occasional cold nights down somewhere into the 30s, in many areas of the 10b/11a-b coastal and island belt of southern Florida where winter morning minima are relatively warm and the winter is very short. I've heard a little about the theory on a fungus though I personally am a little skeptical of such a claim in the absence of any true studies on the subject. It's worth trying the experiment where you can find affordable plants. For some reason, in Florida, "affordable" seems to be the rub.

The story of a fungus caused decline has been around for a while and as far as i can tell is from a single source.

My experience with the fungicide and with basic plant physiology leads me to think that a preventative to the decline of Cyrtostachys is largely a myth.

To begin with, Dithane is more correctly termed a fungistat, in that it inhibits fungal initiation where none is currently infecting the plant. It is a protectant only, and will last app. 14-20 days.

The decline in the palm is going to happen due to damage to the bud, not the leaves, and it is unlikely that enough product can get to the meristem to make any difference.

More importantly, just as in any tropical palm, Cyrtostachys most likely declines in prolonged cool weather because it stops photosynthesizing and runs out of carbohydrate. ( Even coconuts will decline after a couple weeks in the 40’s...it just takes longer in larger plants due to the higher amount of carbohydrate in storage.)

Any fungus or bacterial growth in the meristem would be a secondary decline agent, and at that point Dithane would not have an effect. Granted, the use of hydrogen peroxide at that point may save the palm if the damage is minor, but the damage has already occurred.

Tropical palms don’t need a fungus to cause decline in temps below their temperature threshold.....basic plant physiology explains it fully.

Until I see some proof comparing treated and untreated plants subjected to the same conditions, I don’t see a fungicide making any difference.

Lovely. Must you provide heat and/or protection?

None whatsoever. I hardly ever get below 50 though, and not for any extended period of time. The larger palm in the picture went through the 2010 winter with no setbacks at all. I would still consider one of the Hybrids if I lived in your area. They have proven to have much greater cold tolerance.

Thanks. I'm still new to so much of this, and I'm not really up on the real difference between what you have and a hybrid. I think the hybrids are less red, but perhaps I'm wrong about that. I believe it gets quite cool here every year (not counting the record freezes), so it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to plant something like that in a very weak 10a like this area.

But I have a history of zone pushing (dragon trees, king palms, and passion flowers in my former Fairfield, CA garden, for example), so I won't say never just yet :-)

As shown in the "Coconuts" thread, I am trying the hybrid in Orlando and will treat it like a Ptychosperma or Adonidia when it comes to cold protection. We shall see The Cyrtostachys loriae in the second pic is NEVER going in the ground here though.

Nice

With us, here in The Netherlands, keeping a Cyrtostachys in open ground is no option. But here is one I kept in my very (top)light livingroom for about one year. It was about 7 ft. tall and did very well. After one year I sold it to another palmenthousiast.

Regards,

Wim.

To PalmsOrl, The C. loriae turned out to be more of the hybrid, so you should notice no differences from the hybrid does.

To PalmsOrl, The C. loriae turned out to be more of the hybrid, so you should notice no differences from the hybrid does.

I have long suspected that my "Cyrtostachys loriae" might be a different species of Cyrtostachys, but it hadn't occurred to me that it might be the hybrid. I will say this, the "loriae" has been growing from seedling size and, while both it and my Cyrtostachys hybrid have a clustering/clumping/suckering etc. habit, there are some differences in the two. This leads me to believe, while it may indeed be the hybrid, it certainly did not come from the same "batch" as the known hybrid I have (and hybrids can of course be extremely variable).

A little background information on each:

The Cyrtostachys renda X elegans hybrid I have was purchased as a 10" plant from an eBay vendor in May or June of 2009 as Cyrtostachys elegans, or "lime lipstick" as it was called in the auction details. In the last 2+ years the largest central growing stem (which is on the cusp of true trunking) has shown significant pinkish orange reddish coloration. This and the palm's vigor, growth rate, and juvenile leaf morphology have led me to conclude that what I received 6 years ago is actually the hybrid that has made an official appearance in the last 3 years or so. I have seen other hybrid specimens that show nicer color, so I don't think I have the best example, but time will tell I guess. Being planted in the ground in Orlando will also give it some challenges in the future:)

As you may know Jeff, the "Cyrtostachys loriae" I received was part of a group order from Jeff Marcus of Floribunda about 4 years ago and was identified as Cyrtostachys loriae. I originally had like 10 seedlings, but the others died along the way due to drying out excessively. It does not take long for this palm (whatever it really is) to die once it begins to get dry out! Also, being in small pots didn't help. Anyways, this one survivor started out as a trio of seedlings in a pot, and has done quite well being treated the same as a C. renda. This palm is completely green and has not displayed the same "joined" "fanned" appearance on the young leaves as the hybrid. It just has a different "look" to me than the hybrids I have seen (to my eyes at least). Also, all the pics I've seen of true Cyrtostachys loriae have featured a single stemmed, non-clustering palm. So I found it really odd when the "C. loriae" starting sending out suckers like mad, even as a foot tall palm.

Time will tell with this palm as well, but I actually suspect the "loriae" is most likely the species Cyrtostachys elegans, though Jeff Marcus had some Cyrtostachys elegans for sale (and later the hybrid too) around the same time, so I would have to assume he saw some difference in "loriae" and "elegans". I just don't know for sure.

Jeff, if you sourced the "C. loriae" from Floribunda at some point before I did, then grew them out and discovered they are also the hybrid, then I guess that answers my question and my palm will start to show some color with time. Is this the case?

My Cyrtostachys renda is doing okay being permanently situated in a HOT Florida greenhouse. I just have to make sure I give it enough water. It looks a little rough at this point, but is putting out new growth.

Do you have any Cyrtostachys glauca available? 2010

Edited July 30, 201510 yr by palmsOrl

More on the two of my Cyrtostachys discussed above. The leaf and leaflet arrangement and morphology is quite distinct between the two different palms. Despite the fact that the hybrid is a bit larger than the "loriae", both appear to be expressing mature leaf and leaflet form (or hints of it at least). Heck, the "loriae" could be Cyrtostachys glauca, as it actually looks most similar to glauca of that size from what I remember. So unless definitive information on the identity of the palms from Jeff Marcus labelled Cyrtostachys loriae is provided, I am for now going to assume my palm is either Cyrtostachys elegans or Cyrtostachys glauca. It appears to be an altogether different palm than the hybrid, though both are clearly Cyrtostachys. See the below photos for comparison.

Here are photos of the leaf structure of the palm labelled "Cyrtostachys loriae":

In contrast, here are a few photos of the leaf structure of the Cyrtostachys hybrid. Thoughts anybody?

On 7/29/2015 at 12:08 AM, palmsOrl said:

As shown in the "Coconuts" thread, I am trying the hybrid in Orlando and will treat it like a Ptychosperma or Adonidia when it comes to cold protection. We shall see The Cyrtostachys loriae in the second pic is NEVER going in the ground here though.

 

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac147/mremensnyder/Cyrtostachys%20hybrid%20one.jpg

 

 

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac147/mremensnyder/Cyrtostachys%20loriae%20one.jpg

How is/did this hold up in O-town? Considering buying one to keep potted in my lanai. Not sure it’s worth me getting out the handcart anytime we drop below 50F though.