Indialantic, FL climate question

[Yunder Wækraus]

Greetings, Y'all :-)

This is my first-ever post, so please forgive me if I've placed the question in the wrong location.

I was born in Florida (4th generation to live there), but I've been living in CA for most of my life. My wife and I just sold our Fairfield, CA house (USDA 9b, Sunset 14), and we're trying to purchase a home in Indialantic near some of my first cousins. Our little garden in Fairfield included a nice selection of unusual (for Solano County) tropical and subtropical plants, including king palms, which had survived the freeze of 2013 without protection, young dragon trees, and a floss silk tree. I really want to turn the house we're trying to purchase in Indialantic into a tropical paradise, but I most want to plant it with all of the native palms of Florida, including the frost-sensitive buccaneer palm, and the thatch palm species of the Keys.

I've been visiting the barrier island for almost 40 years (my aunt has owned a home and/or condo in or around Cocoa Beach for nigh on 50 years, and my first cousin has owned a house in Satellite Beach for more than 30 years). However, I was born in the Glades, and the majority of my summer visits to Florida took place in what I now know is a near frost-free microclimate in South Bay, Florida, one that is more akin to Fort Lauderdale than neighboring Clewiston. (Prior to the 1930s, the land was a massive pond apple [or, if you prefer, "custard apple"] jungle because of the effect of the lake and the southern location on it.)

The plants I love most are those that grew in the yard of our ancestral house there in South Bay. It was/is a Cracker-style house built by my grandfather in the 1930s and is still inhabited by my uncle today. These plants include Florida avocados, various bananas, pink guavas, oranges, and bird-planted royal palms (nothing too crazy or exotic for Florida). It is my impression that the Cocoa-to-Melbourne Beach area is the northernmost zone 10a area in Florida, and I believe cold will not prevent me from growing the above-mentioned plants there, though I understand that the sandy soil is nowhere near as rich as that black muck in the Glades.

But it is also my impression that the South Florida tropicals don't thrive in the Cocoa Beach-to-Melbourne Beach area in the same way that they in what are ostensibly equivalent zone 10a areas south of Okeechobee. (I know that the Royal Palms I've seen near my cousin's house in Satellite Beach look nowhere near as massive and wild as the bird-planted grove in my uncle's backyard in South Bay).

So here's my question: what is the longterm prognosis for royal palms, coconut palms, and everglades palms in the barrier island microclimate south of Cocoa Beach and north of Melbourne Beach? And is there any chance I could get away with buccaneer palms and the more cold-intolerant thatch palms of the keys if I planted them in protected areas? I really want to plant all the stuff I couldn't grow in Northern California, but I don't want to needlessly push my zone and lose a lot fo plants to the first freeze that rears its head.

I suppose the less-than-robust palms I saw in Satellite Beach might be the result of the poorer soil on the island relative to the rich muck lands of South Bay, but I wonder whether it's really that or just a higher incidence of freezes that far north. The house we're trying to purchase it literally less than a block from the ocean, though I don't know that it really matters where the house is on the narrow strip that is the barrier island.

One more question: if it is possible that I might be able to plant buccaneer palms and the thatch palms of the keys, where would I find these for sale?

I apologize again for the long post, and I thank anyone in advance for any advice or other information I receive. (I've attached a February photo of the little house we just sold in California.)

[SubTropicRay]

_{Long time Central Florida Palm and Cycad Society member Scott Ward has an amazing garden in Indialantic. Charlene Palm and Neil Yorio are also members and live in Satellite Beach. These three would be my go to sources for what to plant locally as their gardens have withstood the test of time. The area is very warm and can support most of the plants you mentioned. Pseudophoenix sargentii is more cold hardy than Roystonea. Leucothrinax is a soild 9b palm. Good luck.}

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thanks! I've never seen Pseudophoenix sargentii planted around my uncle's area in the Glades, so I just assumed that it was more cold-intolerant than the royal palm. (From what I've read, Pseudophoenix sargentii is generally only cold-hardy in 10b and above, but that's why I'm asking y'all )

[Jimbean]

I am from around that area, and I am a local climate junkie, so I can answer any question you have on the local climate.

Those palms should be fine. There are many nice royals (up to about ~50 foot tall) up here in Merritt Island, and the thatch palms don't seem to have a problem either. 2010 freeze did kill about 50% of the coconut palms here, and I think killed about maybe 2% of them beach side. Indialantic is a zone 10A area with annual average minimum between 33F and 34F.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thanks, Trunking! We'll know by the end of this month whether we'll be able to get the house. Have you seen any buccaneer palms in the area? And do you know where I can purchase some once I'm there?

[Yunder Wækraus]

Do you know how palms fared near the beach in Indialantic during the '89 freeze?

[Jimbean]

Thanks, Trunking! We'll know by the end of this month whether we'll be able to get the house. Have you seen any buccaneer palms in the area? And do you know where I can purchase some once I'm there?

I know of one in south Merritt Island, and I am pretty sure I have seen more around too. I know Charlene has them in Satellite Beach.

I know that Rockledge Gardens at least used to sell them, they may still do.

[Jimbean]

Do you know how palms fared near the beach in Indialantic during the '89 freeze?

Although I was just a small child when the 89 freeze happened, I have been able to gather observations, official records, and hearsay from locals. Indialantic averages about 3.5F warmer than the official station in Melbourne, and the official record lows are 20F in Melbourne (set in 85, and it is worth mentioning that there was a report of 17F [24F officially] in 1977), and 24F in Patrick Air Force Base set in 89. I had the belief that all coconut palms were wiped out during the 80's, but there is a member on here (Eric in Orlando) http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/?p=648877claims an 89 survivor.

There were at least some royals that survived in that area.

There are some old, very large ficus trees that survived

The gumbo limbo trees survived, but the ones in South Merritt Island appear to been having frozen to the ground (as all of the larger trees are forked at the base).

Here are two maps I did of Brevard county:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/41649-most-northerly-area-of-florida-considered-zone-10b10a-and-9b/?p=648957

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/44561-best-microclimate-in-central-florida/?p=689111

[Jimbean]

Also, I will note for the second map, although those are the long term annual averages for the area, I consider zone 10A starting at 33F, not 30F.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thank you so much for the information. It really bums me out to think that Indialantic might be to coconut palms and royals what Saint Augustine is to citrus :-( I guess I was hoping y'all would come back and say that those areas which were right on the coast sailed through the freeze of '89 unscathed. Sighhhh. The house we just sold in Fairfield was a zone 9b, but a weak one (in three winters, the coldest part of the yard dropped to below 30 at least once, and during the winter of 2013, I'm pretty sure it got down to 25). Parts of my garden there were frost free (functionally 10a) this past winter, and it made all my plants look so happy! I really don't want to start fresh in FL and not be able to grow the plants I love most. I guess nothing is forever: the next big freeze might hit right after we move there, or it might never come.

[gsytch]

I live in New Port Richey (Pasco county) and I have a large, thriving Thatch Palm in my yard,planted as a 3gal years ago. It is ten feet easily.I planted it under a triple planting of Syagrus forprotection, and it has done well even through the brutal 2010 winter. I am zone 9b. Yes, the big one could hit, or it could not. That said, we are apparently in some warmer winters now as the past four winters have been zone 10a/b here. I am coastal. Greg wishing it would rain again................

[Zeeth]

One thing that you should do if you want your royals to look like your uncle's is fertilize and water. The sand in coastal Florida can get hydrophobic if not watered consistently, and doesn't hold nutrients well, so consistent watering and fertilizing is important.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thanks for the tips :-) We'll know before the end of the month whether we'll get the house. Here's hoping I'll be planting the garden of my dreams soon

[Jimbean]

Thank you so much for the information. It really bums me out to think that Indialantic might be to coconut palms and royals what Saint Augustine is to citrus :-( I guess I was hoping y'all would come back and say that those areas which were right on the coast sailed through the freeze of '89 unscathed. Sighhhh. The house we just sold in Fairfield was a zone 9b, but a weak one (in three winters, the coldest part of the yard dropped to below 30 at least once, and during the winter of 2013, I'm pretty sure it got down to 25). Parts of my garden there were frost free (functionally 10a) this past winter, and it made all my plants look so happy! I really don't want to start fresh in FL and not be able to grow the plants I love most. I guess nothing is forever: the next big freeze might hit right after we move there, or it might never come.

For central and south Brevard (south of Cocoa), royals are hardy long term as long as it is nothing record breaking and coconuts are find outside of major freezing events. Coastal Brevard has a similar temperature profile as Martin county; I am afraid that is as good as it gets for central Florida.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Jimbean

[Yunder Wækraus]

Well, that'll have to be good enough. I was looking to buy something in South Florida solely because of my fascination with certain plants and reptiles, but Indialantic offers the best school and neighborhood situation for my wife and kids. I'll just enjoy the plants for as long as they grow.

[_Keith]

Well, that'll have to be good enough. I was looking to buy something in South Florida solely because of my fascination with certain plants and reptiles, but Indialantic offers the best school and neighborhood situation for my wife and kids. I'll just enjoy the plants for as long as they grow.

Seems like all of your priorities are well prioritized. Good luck.

[Jimbean]

Well, that'll have to be good enough. I was looking to buy something in South Florida solely because of my fascination with certain plants and reptiles, but Indialantic offers the best school and neighborhood situation for my wife and kids. I'll just enjoy the plants for as long as they grow.

That sounds perfect!

Personally, I would like to eventually move in to an area either there or here in Merritt Island.

[palmsOrl]

I agree with the consensus here that the 10a palms mentioned (Royals, Pseudophoenix, Leucothrinax) being almost perfectly suitable for the immediate Brevard County coast with ample irrigation and fertilizer to rival their South FL counterparts. Also, I would not waste my time NOT planting an ample number of coconuts if desired. The freezes that kill coconuts in this area are very few and far between, so plant away! You can always make a trip to S. Florida (or Kopsick ) and obtain ample replacements for free. This is the reason I have 11 in-ground Cocos in Orlando and am not worried a bit. The two from Kospsick will be protected with extraordinary measures when needed, so they stay looking nice as adults, the others are experiments that can and will be replaced when needed.

I hope you are successful in procuring your slice of zone 10 paradise.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thanks! I'm getting excited. We'll know whether we get the house within the next few weeks.

[empireo22]

Hello,

Ive seen a few buccaneers around Indiatlantic.ive even seen a small pritchardia sp. As mentioned here its about as good as a microclimate you can get around here. if you drive on riverside dr you can see some huge coconuts holding full crowns right now. I might be wrong but im guessing absolute low temperature are probably pretty close to south bay. now during long cold/cool fronts indiatlantic would be colder. maybe if it is 65 in south bay it could be 55 in indiatlantic. and if its misty and rainy it feels very cold. but during a short freeze I don't think it would be much different more or less. I bet there is a bigger difference in temps between indiatlantic and south west palm bay. send me a pm if you move here.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Thanks for the info. I assumed things would be most moderate nearest the Atlantic side of the barrier island. Do coconuts look best nearer the river? Yeah, I think you're right about the overall temps. Royal palms will always be my favorite palm species (though I've come to love the Chilean wine palms you see here and there in CA almost as much), but I think that's because I associate them with family. The buccaneer palm, however, has been something of a mild obsession of mine for a few years. I never saw one as a young person in Florida. In fact, I only discovered Pseudophoenix sargentii on the internet when I really started getting into palm species about three years ago. I got to see some nice ones in the Keys over Christmas, and I'm excited to be able to grow some for myself finally. (If, of course, the house works out, which we will know for sure before the end of the month.)

[empireo22]

They can look better by the river. a lot of the ones right by the beach look tattered up from wind and salt and it is slightly cooler during the day immediately on the beach. well it may not be enough to make much of a difference. it just seems the better looking ones ive seen are right on riverside in indiatlantic. royals will be no problems with a lot of water. does the house your looking at buying have them?

[Yunder Wækraus]

No, it's got very little landscaping. Neighboring houses have some, I believe.

[Jimbean]

If you have any more questions, feel free to contact me.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Will do. Thanks!

[Dave-Vero]

A great deal really does depend on salt spray.

Here's a native plant list that's relevant to the Brevard beaches.

GTC Palms (Okie LoPresti with Neil Yorio) is a great source of palms, cycads, and local expertise. They are impressed that Kentiopsis oliviformis from New Caledonia is a better plant for us than the coconut. Hardier and at least as good-looking. Also, the gardening forum at the local surfing forum, 2ndlight.com, has several palm enthusiasts including one with a little nursery business, goes by Paddleout.

Great cycads are readily available. I have a bunch in the yard. Here's the newest, a beautiful young Australian Lepidozamia peroffskyana from GTC, with some coonties:

[Yunder Wækraus]

That cycad looks fantastic. I also love the coonties. You'd be disgusted by how much I paid for my first coontie here in CA. Let's just say that it cost 15x more than what I paid for one when we visited Florida this Christmas. I kept it in a pot, and it's one of the few plants I got to keep after selling my home. It'll definitely go in the ground once we get back to FL. It's killing me to wait for the lender to confirm the title is clear, agree that all my documentation is good, and move toward closing. We had a lot go wrong with the purchase of our first home (multiple extensions and a what should have been a normal amount of time turned into five months), so I'm not ready to count my chicks before they hatch.

[Dave-Vero]

Coonties are widely available, and can sometimes be gotten from neighbors--they produce lots of seedlings and can get too big for their assigned spots. The ones in the photo got moved last year. They lost their roots, of course, and the leaves died. The Lepidozamia is in a spot intended for a palm.

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

You can grow everything you listed in your original post just fine in Indialantic. Keep in mind that a 1989 level freeze will kill all coconuts. Although that type of freak freeze would kill most tropical palms in the vast majority of Florida even much further south. But that is a super rare freeze event. Welcome.

[Dave-Vero]

The 1989 freeze also killed native gumbo limbo (Bursera simaruba) trees in Cocoa Beach. The natural landscape in coastal Florida tends to be a constant cycle of recovery from the latest hurricane, freeze, or episode of salt spray from strong onshore winds.

[Yunder Wækraus]

Did the gumbo limbo trees come back on their own, or were they killed off permanently?

[empireo22]

yes. birds plant them all the time. and there are still some huge specimens around, some have split trunks at the base from the freeze.

[Jimbean]

Did the gumbo limbo trees come back on their own, or were they killed off permanently?

They survived. Like I mentioned before, you will see the larger trees forked at the base, meaning that they were probably frozen to the ground. You will find younger, post-89 trees with single trunks. Gumbo limbo trees grow wild at least as far north as Cape Canaveral on the coast and about that far north along the Indian River.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Jimbean

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Here is a guy getting away with a buccaneer in Cocoa Beach:

[Yunder Wækraus]

Nice one!

[Yunder Wækraus]

We're here. We still have a lot of unpacking to do, but I can't wait to get started on the yard. The property has several native palms of varying ages (most seedlings), but they are not positions in the best locations. There is a no-man's-land strip between one neighbor's fence and an older fence, and native figs have grown up in that space. Beyond that, the only plants of note are a large fruit-bearing mango tree and a Norfolk Island pine. The front yard has near-dead grass sod which was lain over crushed coral rock. It's gonna be a bear to dig holes out there :-( I'm very pleased with my neighbors' plantings. On my left are two lots with lovely tropical gardens. I'm hoping to make contact with local nursery folks today to get a few plants to get me going.

[NorCalKing]

Good luck, in your new location. Sounds like a great location to start your tropical paradise!

[NatureGirl]

I just saw this post today. The 'Indialantic' on the topic caught my eye. I'm in Satellite Beach (Charlene). Send me a PM or email if you'd be interested in coming by. I'd be happy to show you the yard. Plus I've got lots of Buccaneer palms.

Beachpalms@cfl.rr.com

[Yunder Wækraus]

I just emailed you from my gmail account