Palm Genetics, Facts or Fiction? Please help.

[Ken Johnson]

Over the many years I have read posts here on PalmTalk where I have come across discussions about palm genetics. Some of the more basic parts apply to a wide range of gardening techniques and I thought it would be interesting to explore some of them and see what others know about the subject too.

One of the more often mentioned genetic references is the term "hybrid". This is probably the most important term for a palm gardener to know when it comes to genetics. The worldwide naming system has some creases in it because while some palms will not have babies with other species some will. Some palms go even further and have babies with another genus. All hybrids.

One interesting FACT about a seed that has a hybrid embryo in it is that the fruit and nut inside is 100% the mothers genetics. Only the embryo has a mixed pair.

Another FACT. Hybrid "mothers" ( a hybrid palm that has grown up to produce fertile offspring) will have different looking children. Even if she is self pollinated every one of the offspring will look a little different than the other because of recombination during meiosis (the making of the pollen DNA and egg DNA).

Now consider this. You buy a palm labeled with the name "Becky Sue" . She has babies and you tell your friends to come get 'em. They ALL tell their friends on PalmTalk (LOL) how luck they are to have a "Becky Sue". Then, many years later they get together for a PRA and discover that none of them have a "Becky Sue" and that in fact ALL the babies look different. Moral of the story? Your original "Becky Sue" was a hybrid herself! Now you ask every one on PalmTalk what they think she is and they all shrug their shoulders and say hmm looks like a Becky but MY Becky does not look like that. Then they ask " Where did YOU get the seeds?" and the answers gets the whole thing even more messed up.After all that someones second generation sets seeds and guess what?

Anyone else have some good stories? Maybe an explanation of what a "Mule" is?

[_Keith]

Even on stable varieties (once hybrids bred to be stable), what is fun sometimes is when that little dormant gene that has been sitting there asleep for generations, for some reason wakes up in one plant, and puts a little salsa in the chips.

[Ken Johnson]

Even on stable varieties (once hybrids bred to be stable), what is fun sometimes is when that little dormant gene that has been sitting there asleep for generations, for some reason wakes up in one plant, and puts a little salsa in the chips.

Like Sabal "Lisa"?

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I was going to mention Arenga caudata vs Arenga hookeriana. I purchased a cute little hookeriana years ago and planted it at my house. It has grown well and has been setting seeds for a few years now. I planted out all my little "hookers" and lo and behold, there are a good many caudatas in there. I am the only palm guy in my neighborhood, and I cannot say that I have looked everywhere for an alternate pollen source, but I am quite convinced it is self pollinated.

[Ken Johnson]

I was going to mention Arenga caudata vs Arenga hookeriana. I purchased a cute little hookeriana years ago and planted it at my house. It has grown well and has been setting seeds for a few years now. I planted out all my little "hookers" and lo and behold, there are a good many caudatas in there. I am the only palm guy in my neighborhood, and I cannot say that I have looked everywhere for an alternate pollen source, but I am quite convinced it is self pollinated.

Ah ha! SO you think Mom is a hybrid? Or is she showing some kind of reversion?

[Mandrew968]

I always like thinking. Thanks for making me do so, Ken. How about the palms that hybridize and are able to set viable seed when mature? To me, that may be a big tell, as far as how close species(or genus) delineation is... maybe an argument for lumping those into a complex?.. Attalea will hybridize between species and never look back! While I have yet to come across a Dypsis cross that was fertile...

[Alicehunter2000]

Guess this goes to show that if you want a specific looking hybrid its best to stay with an F1 cross.

Would be interesting to note if "hybrid vigor" is lost with subsequent F2 , F3 crosses?

[Ken Johnson]

Guess this goes to show that if you want a specific looking hybrid its best to stay with an F1 cross.

Would be interesting to note if "hybrid vigor" is lost with subsequent F2 , F3 crosses?

Guess this goes to show that if you want a specific looking hybrid its best to stay with an F1 cross.

Would be interesting to note if "hybrid vigor" is lost with subsequent F2 , F3 crosses?

To address Andrew and David the F1 (first cross) is always unique (like a snow flake) it is however similar to mom and dad. IF THAT palm (F1) has fertile seeds and self pollinates? the offspring will look a lot like the mother hybrid but not exactly. Her offspring will NOT tell you who her mom and dad were. They will hints yes but they won't give you a definitive answer.

I'm not an expert but hybrid vigor is also paired with hybrid decline most of the time. After a few years (say 2,000,000) the gene pool should level out again...Not all crosses show vigor or decline as the number of recessive and dominant genes varies from species to species.

Now about those mule palms...

[trioderob]

sorry Ken-

I am going to have to call BS on the part about the Hybrid mom self producing different looking children.

that sounds like hogwash.

[Ken Johnson]

sorry Ken-

I am going to have to call BS on the part about the Hybrid mom self producing different looking children.

that sounds like hogwash.

Remember Triode Mom still has to go through meiosis so her "raw" hybrid genes will recombine to form even different combinations of not only looks but stability of the embryo in as far as to weather or not it will be fertile. Is that clear? Now imagine what happens if Mom meets another man?

[Brad Mondel]

It is true that crosses within the same species can create vigor by increasing the gene pool. A larger gene pool makes organisms less susceptible to diseases and thus weeds out the bad genes over time.

However, hybrids of different species can create problems such a weak offspring and sterile offspring. This is due to the chromosomes not pairing well.

Even with these barriers you can still achieve a strong hybrid but usually they're partially sterile.

As far as the self producing mother creating different morphological offspring, it can go either way. This depends on the species, wether or not that species expresses polymorphism or monomorphism. For example, Butia odorata shows polymorphism, it has many variations. While on the other hand some species show monomorphism where all offspring are identical.

Edited May 9, 2015 by ArchAngeL01

[Ken Johnson]

It is true that crosses within the same species can create vigor by increasing the gene pool. A larger gene pool makes organisms less susceptible to diseases and thus weeds out the bad genes over time.

However, in hybrids within different species this can create problems such a weak offspring and sterile offspring.

As far as the self producing mother creating different morphological offspring, it can go either way. This depends on the species, wether or not that species expresses polymorphism or monomorphism. For example, Butia odorata shows polymorphism, it has many variations. While on the other hand some species show monomorphism where all offspring are identical.

The first part of that is right AA. If you add genes from outside the "valley" of another population of the SAME species you help the gene pool. They are the same species though so they are not hybrids so no "hybrid vigor" just generally more vigorous genes over time (there is a time limit at which the population becomes stagnant again and without outside genes they can again decline.)

It is when we introduce long lost cousins (different species) that we may find hybrid vigor or decline. In some cases these hybrids too may be sterile. Which leads us to what happens when we cross GENUS.

[Brad Mondel]

Yes I meant genus on the second part. Thank you

[richnorm]

sorry Ken-

I am going to have to call BS on the part about the Hybrid mom self producing different looking children.

that sounds like hogwash.

F1's produce variable offspring without doubt. Good thread.

[Brad Mondel]

Sorry for the confusion. F1 hybrids would definitely show morphological differences from each parent. But if you're talking about species then they can either express monoorphism(identical offspring) or polymorphism (different looking) depending on the species.

My brain hurts.

[trioderob]

sorry Ken-

I am going to have to call BS on the part about the Hybrid mom self producing different looking children.

that sounds like hogwash.

Remember Triode Mom still has to go through meiosis so her "raw" hybrid genes will recombine to form even different combinations of not only looks but stability of the embryo in as far as to weather or not it will be fertile. Is that clear? Now imagine what happens if Mom meets another man?

it boggles the mind.................

Edited May 10, 2015 by trioderob

[_Keith]

When life gets fun.

[Ken Johnson]

How about the babies from the Syagrus hybrids?

Who has experience with those?

[Ken Johnson]

Another interesting thing about palm genetics are the clones. All the "named" Phoenix dactilifera we get date fruit from are clones!

[trioderob]

that's not possible

[Ken Johnson]

that's not possible

If clones are groups of the same organism that had identical DNA then named dates are clones.

[Brad Mondel]

Yes, dates such as the 'medjool' date are asexually reproduced clones from a single mother tree. That tree was selected for its special dates and all offspring made from the division of suckers are genetically identical to the mother.

[awkonradi]

Search Google Scholar for: Phoenix dactylifera somatic embryogenesis. About a dozen articles will come up.

[_Keith]

Yes, dates such as the 'medjool' date are asexually reproduced clones from a single mother tree. That tree was selected for its special dates and all offspring made from the division of suckers are genetically identical to the mother.

Well, it is rare, but when is a clone not a clone? Many new varieties of the result of "sports." A wrench in the clone gears.

[trioderob]

what is the world are "sports " ?

I have heard of "poor sports"..........................

[_Keith]

"in botany, a sport or bud sport is a part of a plant (usually a woody plant, but sometimes an herb) that shows morphological differences from the rest of the plant. Sports may differ by foliage shape or color, flowers, or branch structure.

Sports with desirable characteristics are often propagated vegetatively to form new cultivars that retain the characteristics of the new morphology.[1] Such selections are often prone to "reversion", meaning that part or all of the plant reverts to its original form. An example of a bud sport is the nectarine, which developed from a bud sport from a peach. Other common fruits resulting from a sport mutation are the red Anjou pear and the white currant."

http://www.examiner.com/article/sports-plant-mutations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_%28botany%29

[Brad Mondel]

Sports of clones do happen on rare occasion but changed morphology doesn't always mean an alteration in DNA. Probably just a change/mutation in how that DNA is expressed.

Speaking of reverting sports: I once had a 'hot lips' salvia greggi that reverted to its original form. Never to bear hot lips again.

Edited May 20, 2015 by ArchAngeL01

[Al in Kona]

Muito interessante!

Very interesting! - and complicated . . .

Makes me want to go back to school and take a course in Genetics and help clear up some of the confusion. LOL

Good topic Ken. Waiting for more input.

[richnorm]

Sports of clones do happen on rare occasion but changed morphology doesn't always mean an alteration in DNA. Probably just a change/mutation in how that DNA is expressed.

Speaking of reverting sports: I once had a 'hot lips' salvia greggi that reverted to its original form. Never to bear hot lips again.

Then there's epigenetics too...