Slow, Slow, Slow Death

[Dypsisdean]

On another thread Randy was agonizing over whether or not he should give up on one of his Wodyetias. That's a hard call, but we have all had to make it. That started me thinking about palms I had watched die slowly over many years.

IMO---There is nothing worse in palm growing than watching a palm look a little worse year after year after year for 5,6,7 years before it finally croaks. I would much rather have a palm just upright and die in a week or so. At least that way you can get another one in it's place and get it growing. I've never been short on patience when it comes to palms. But in hindsight, there were many times I would have been better off throwing in the towel a lot earlier.

I once had a Chambeyronia lepidota that sat and looked back at me for 7 years, and never opened the new frond that looked ready. Then one day, all of sudden, it dried up. I should have dug it up, and at the very least moved it to more sun or more shade, or done something different. Instead, I wasted a prime spot in the garden for 7 years where a nice rare Dypsis could have gone in years earlier.

Now a days I wouldn't wait more than three years for a palm to "show me the money." If it has been declining after that long in the ground, I'll pull the plug. I'll either toss it, or if it's rare, put it back in a pot with fresh soil and baby it along. If I happen to pull a spear out, I'll wait a year or so. If no new spear, it's history. I've pulled the spear out on a palm and waited 2 or 3 years for it to slowly die, thinking it may still have a chance. No more.

When do you call it quits?

[Shon]

Funny you should start this thread Dean.I have been watching Rhopalostylis bauerii with great intrest the last few months.I put in a spot where it got way to much sun and it fried but not before putting out a new leaf although it had the spear when I bought it.It has since been moved to a shadier spot where it should have been in the first place,but still looks sketchy.I keep going back and forth wether chop it down or wait it out.It is taking up a great spot.It is such a great palm too, especially since I bought it as a overgrown 15 gal.As you can tell by my last couple lines I have been agonizing over this for a couple weeks.I'll wait I guess.No I'm going to chop it down oh I don't know.

                                    Shon

[Walter John]

When do you call it quits?

Great forum this one, very topical. With palms looking in decline, I now wait for the next growing season here,(summer/autumn) to see if it improves. If it does not improve after the best climate possible for my area, OUT she goes.

Money down the drain but that's just some of the costs you pay for this hobby/infatuation. Plus, I look at it positively, placement of said palm or the genus/species itself may simply not be appropriate. Lessons and knowledge all the time on tap with palm growing.

Remember there's about 3000 species to try.

[BS Man about Palms]

Well, I just pulled the plug on one the other day.  One of my few in the ground, but planted before I "got palm crazy".  It was a Kentia as a "pair" (2 singles) in part trade with the large CIDP I sold.

This one had always looked stunted a bit more than the other one, and for several YEARS I had marveled at the "stuff" on the palm. (I now know it was scale and mealy bugs) Anyway, I got it somewhat back on the road to recovery and about 7 months ago I got the idea to move it. (I figured move the weaker one, increase the odds of one surviving)  I had someone else do most of it and again, I've learned much since then.  It was too low in the ground, too much in "winter" (mild as it is), and probably watered a little too much at the time.

I moved it next to the healthy one and finally got my inground palms on irrigation about 6 weeks ago and the healthy Kentias growth since then has been almost embarassing to expose the amount I underwatered it! I marked the "dying ones spear" when the other semi-open frond started to look worse.  NEVER saw any growth.  For the first time in WEEKS I was off early on tuesday (working almost 7 day weeks repairing A/C units).

Anyway, I went to it, gave a tug on the spear, out it came and within moments I had a shovel and it was coming out!  I guess a month is what I need on the common stuff.  I put a big 1 gal (small 15 gal size) Belmoreana in its place...

We shall see.

[Tyrone]

(Wal @ Jul. 20 2006,20:27)

QUOTE

When do you call it quits?

Great forum this one, very topical. With palms looking in decline, I now wait for the next growing season here,(summer/autumn) to see if it improves. If it does not improve after the best climate possible for my area, OUT she goes.

Money down the drain but that's just some of the costs you pay for this hobby/infatuation. Plus, I look at it positively, placement of said palm or the genus/species itself may simply not be appropriate. Lessons and knowledge all the time on tap with palm growing.

Remember there's about 3000 species to try.

Wal, I couldn't agree more. We think alike in this regard.

[Matt in SD]

Good topic Dean,

In my limited (~4 years now) experience, I've observed that if you mark a spear on a palm and see absolutely no growth (and I mean no growth...1mm per week IS growth) the palm is dead.  

The only exception to this that I've seen was on a Pinanga kuhlii that had a spear on one trunk suddenly go all "funky" looking on me late last winter just as it was opening.  I marked it and the growth was definitely slowing down fast, and at some point I think it actually stopped, and shortly after I was able to pull the spear out.  I probably would have dug it up at this point, except that there were two healthy trunks still there.  I poured Daconil down the hole and tried to keep it dry, and after a while a new spear came out.  So in this case the emerging spear was the only thing affected (the old leaves were fine) and it was an acute type of thing that I took care of pretty quickly...and I'm not completely sure that growth ever stopped 100%.

This is the closest I've come to having to make this decision on a palm in the ground (knock on wood).  I've babied some palms in pots for up to 2 years after they stopped growing, and that really sucks!  Palms grow slow and die slow, and it seems like most of the time they are dead before they show any obvious signs that they are dead (other than stopping growth).

But what about palms that grow fine but perpetually look like crap?  This is real agony for me.  I have a Euterpe edulis that is in a spot where it gets too much winter sun.  It was a 5g plant when planted and now has about 8" of trunk (3 years after planting) so it's grown well, but it always looks like trash.  At one point I had said I'd give it till the end of this summer...   I guess I should just move it, but I'm not 100% convinced it will look good in a shadier spot either and I don't want to wait another three years for it to recover from a move.  But I can't just kill it! Can I?

Matt

[MattyB]

But I can't just kill it! Can I?

No, but you can eat it!

[Stan]

Same here with a Wodyetia. It wasnt that healthy when i bought it-who knew a year later they would be all over the place for sale?..I dug it up from a spot and replaced with three great looking King palms. And i'm not sold on foxtails now..in the ground they look like stunted queen palms.In  big containers they resemble compact Caryotas.And that's where it will stay.

[Gtlevine]

I made that call this year on a nice Dypsis Madagascariensis. It was the one casualty from the heavy cold and hail storms we had in March and April. I think the active winter growth made the shock and awe of the hail much more stressful. Anyway, the bottom leaves were dying one at a time until all I had left was a spear, once I saw some brown on the spear, I just pulled the plug. It was also easier since this was the new area I was planting my Ravenea grove, so I figured I might as well put it out of it's misery earlier rather than later.

Gary

[alex_7b]

A great many enthusiasts in cold areas will claim to have a palm living in their yard, that is actually dying a slow death!

Each year sees burned fronds and reduced recovery but still the claim is made that "I have such-and-such" palm in my yard for a couple of winters. Eventually, starch reserves are completely depleted, and the plant becomes mulch. There are people in every zone doing the same thing.

[Dypsisdean]

(Gtlevine @ Jul. 21 2006,13:17)

QUOTE

so I figured I might as well put it out of it's misery earlier rather than later.

Gary

Gary,

Don't forget the misery of the grower. As soon as you get a new vigorous growing palm in it's place, life is good again.

[Gtlevine]

(Dypsisdean @ Jul. 21 2006,13:51)

QUOTE

(Gtlevine @ Jul. 21 2006,13:17)

QUOTE

so I figured I might as well put it out of it's misery earlier rather than later.

Gary

Gary,

Don't forget the misery of the grower. As soon as you get a new vigorous growing palm in it's place, life is good again.

I feel real good Dean, just planted a Ravenea Monticola, Ravenea Monopana and Dypsis Kingali (unknown Ravenea).

Gary

[Dypsisdean]

(Gtlevine @ Jul. 21 2006,15:34)

QUOTE

I feel real good Dean, just planted a Ravenea Monticola, Ravenea Monopana and Dypsis Kingali (unknown Ravenea).

Gary

Gary,

Where did you get the crazy idea to try a R. monticola?  

[Daryl]

I am about to pull the plug on my Corypha utan. Ants nested in the crown and created a nice muddy mess, which then rotted out the spear, and travelled down to the bud. I have seen no growth whatsover in the last few months, so it is definitely a gonner. Come spring and it will be replaced, if I am still living here.

Daryl.

[Walter John]

better replace that beer while you're at it !

[paulgila]

an offering to the "palm god"?

[Kris]

the picture in post no.14  is very painful and moving to me.

but a word of caution : never plant any plant in that place without making some treatment to the soil. so that this problem does not recur.

in india we condition such problematic location by digging 3 feet  by 3 feet pit wide and 3 feet depth.And the old soil from the pit is removed and in its place we replace new soil which is bit sandy and porous in nature with anti_ant treatment/white ant treatment done before closing the ditch. the new ditch is allowed to air for 4 to 6 months so as useful bacterias breed in the soil and beneficial organic treatments should be done. only after that the ditch has to be closed and the new plant should be planted only after the rainy season.

One Man One tree

Love,

Kris.

[DoomsDave]

(Wal @ Jul. 21 2006,17:57)

QUOTE

better replace that beer while you're at it !

Hic!

In affirmation . . .

dave

[DoomsDave]

Dean!

Dude, you're asking one of those age-old questions, like what is love, etc.

It depends.

Generally, if a palm's tight in the ground, I'll let it live.  But, well.  

Had me a gorgeous Dictyosperma furferacea, and it looked great, but this winter really whapped it , and I sang to it, danced around it, prayed for it, played Mozart and the Sex Pistols to it, and it finally died, the spear pulled out, long after the other leaves had all browned out.  

On the other hand, I've had Hyophorbes do okay, then the spear pulls out, heartbroken, wait, and they grow again, like Lazarus.

The answer is . . .  

It depends!  (not the undergarments)

dave

[DoomsDave]

Doinked this back up to see if our newer members have any experiences in these lines.

dave

[DoomsDave]

At the risk . . .

doink!

[MattyB]

Well now that you mention it....I have a small seedling of Coccothrinax miraguama that didn't make a leaf all summer.  I suspected that the soil was retaining too much water so I bare rooted it and sure enough the root tips were starting to turn soggy and brown. EEEEKKKK!  So I made up a real light mix, repotted it and treated it weekly with Daconil.  So far nothing!  It's in suspended animation.  The existing strap leaves look green but no new growth.  It's only a tiny little thing and dosen't take up any room so I will not be pulling the plug.  It's gonna have to get busy dyin' or get busy livin'.  Story of my life.

[paulgila]

if a palm is not doing well i usually move it.if you're going to lose it anyway its worth the risk IMO.sometimes it works...

[Matt in SD]

I have a Dypsis soanieranae that had the new spear rot out more than a year ago.  Nothing has emerged in that time but I swear the stem has gotten thicker.  Also I fertilized it a little while ago, and the leaves greened up.  So it seems that the two leaves that are on the plant are definitely alive and "communicating" with live roots...but will it ever put a new spear out?

Does anyone know whether it's possible that the heart (growth point) can be destroyed but the existing leaves and roots can still be "alive"?  This would explain the "suspended animation" phenomenon that we've all seen.

On the topic of repotting sick stuff...I think you have to do it pretty early, at the first signs that a plant is unhappy.  The earliest signs are usually a slowing of growth (sometimes hard to notice), old leaves dying off faster than new leaves are produced, or new leaves emerging smaller than older leaves (without a change in light levels).  So far when I take palms that have near death and try to repot them into better soil, they've died every time.  But when I do it while they still look OK, but have just slowed their growth, they seem to appreciate it the move.

Matt

Matt

[Alberto]

(Matt in SD @ Jul. 21 2006,13:00)

QUOTE

 I have a Euterpe edulis that is in a spot where it gets too much winter sun.  It was a 5g plant when planted and now has about 8" of trunk (3 years after planting) so it's grown well, but it always looks like trash.  At one point I had said I'd give it till the end of this summer...   I guess I should just move it, but I'm not 100% convinced it will look good in a shadier spot either and I don't want to wait another three years for it to recover from a move.  But I can't just kill it! Can I?

Matt

Euterpes edulis grows in deep shade when young !!!    Maybe you can plant some fast growing canopy for the infancy of your palmito-juçara!

[Joe palma]

Euterpe edulis like a lot of water also. I have 5g plants that are constantly moist and in a good amout of shade and look great. I have others in more sun and less water and are more yellow w/ less vigorous growth.

I have had a Wodyetia in hospice since March(posted "Foxtail in decline"). No noticeable growth since then and it is down to the spear. It is solidly in the ground and is about a foot wide at the base (I know, I can't believe it is croaking on me!). It was the nicest one out of 6 of them. Marked by "BS, man about partially naked chicks" on 8/20/06 (that's August 20th, 2006) and showing no change (Dam!). Hate to see her go, but I think it is over. I probably will wait but I know the winter won't do a bit of good for it. It would be the second large one I will have lost.

As far as the spear pulling out, if it is from a freeze, I would not say it is a gonner. I had a Bizzie in a 25g container that had been in a freeze during transport from FL to CA. Looked bad. Got it for free from the guy who sold me the foxtails. After a month or so, the spear was pulled out. My yard helpers said it was lost. I had faith. Not sure how many months it took to produce the new spike but it did. It's a monster now!

Good thread!