Coconut dwarf vs tall growth rate

[Gecrabill]

I have two coconut palms growing in my backyard about 18ft apart. One of them has great new and fast growth, straight skinny trunk but each frond scar is small. The other has a wider trunk, slight curve and larger leaf scars on the trunk, but seems the fronds come less often and grow slower. If I take some pictures, any Coconut ID experts out there? Do the tall or maypan variety grow fronds slower, but since the scars are bigger, grow trunk quicker than dwarf malayan?

[Zeeth]

Some pictures would greatly help us to ID your variety for you. I've spent a few years finding info about the different coconut varieties, but Florida has a lot of hybrids so it can be difficult sometimes.

[IHB1979]

Not sure if this is correct but found this on the interwebs, can anyone confirm?

Why is the term "dwarf" used in discussions about Green Malayans?

Contrary to popular belief, the term dwarf does not refer to the overall, mature size that one of these trees will achieve or a slower growth rate but rather to the size at which the tree will start to produce fruit (coconuts).

A Green Malayan will begin to fruit at approximately 2’-3’ of grey wood where as the Maypan will not produce until it reaches approximately 6’-8’ gw.

[Zeeth]

Not sure if this is correct but found this on the interwebs, can anyone confirm?

Why is the term "dwarf" used in discussions about Green Malayans?

Contrary to popular belief, the term dwarf does not refer to the overall, mature size that one of these trees will achieve or a slower growth rate but rather to the size at which the tree will start to produce fruit (coconuts).

A Green Malayan will begin to fruit at approximately 2’-3’ of grey wood where as the Maypan will not produce until it reaches approximately 6’-8’ gw.

Ehh, it's not entirely true. Pure Malayans do eventually grow pretty tall, but they take much longer to get there than tall types. Here's a post that I made a while back from information that I got from Dave Romney's book "Growing Coconuts in South Florida":

After reading through the Dave Romney book on coconuts (he is regarded as a coconut expert in these parts), I think I might be able to answer your question at least somewhat. One problem is that the named varieties here are different from the names elsewhere, and we only have a few varieties here so it's only difficult because it's a little muddied up by hybridization. The Malayan dwarves here originated from a few trees brought to Jamaica after hurricanes in 1944 and 1951 hit the island, they imported dwarves to test hurricane resistance. Although dwarves are self pollinating, seeds from maypan and Jamaica tall palms have been used to grow "malayan" coconuts by unknowledgeable nurseries, so many "dwarves" here are some type of Fn (n being some number greater than or equal to 1) maypan or mayjam, exhibiting a variety of characteristics intermediate between the two. Pure Malayans are ideally grown from someone who knows the origins of the coconut, and the pure ones look much like the ones in Australia, with a slim trunk and short (but not as short as a fiji dwarf) trunk. They have no bowl at the base also and medium length leaves. This is in contrast to a fiji dwarf, which has a thick trunk and some bowl with short leaves. Spicata are easy to tell, with the nuts all growing on one branchlet. There are two types of tall type here, Panama (or Pacific) and Jamaica (or Atlantic). The Jamaica tall has late germinating (50% sprouting by 14-16 weeks), elongated fruits with 18% of the weight of the seed being the water inside. The Panama tall has early germinating (50% sprouting by 10-12 weeks) large oblate fruit, with 33% of the weight due to water. The Panama tall is somewhat faster, producing a trunk on average of 33 feet by 30 years, with the Jamaica tall producing a trunk of 30 feet in the same amount of time. Both tall types in Florida are attributed to having either green or bronze/green petiole color, though Jeff in Costa Rica has posted some that have golden petioles, and my Panama tall from Dave Romney also has golden petioles. Both produce a bole with long leaves and a thick trunk, though Jamaica tall curves more, which is attributed to being more top heavy when it first develops trunk, so wind coupled with soggy soil can cause the palm to fall somewhat and develop the lean. Neither are self pollinating, so any coconuts from a tall will have one parent being a different palm, so nuts collected from these ideally should be hand pollinated or at least grown right next to another of the same type (as the two at Kopsick grow). I've heard that Panama tall grows a more umbrella shaped crown, while Jamaica tall has leaves extending all the way down, but I've seen Panama talls have leaves extending all the way down so I think this characteristic can be variable in the Panama tall. I don't think it's variable in the Jamaica tall. There is a semi-tall coconut called the king coconut which has many characteristics of the tall types, including a bowl at the base and a thick trunk, but is self fertile and has orange nuts and petioles. Those are the only coconuts common in cultivation in Florida.

[mnorell]

Not sure if this is correct but found this on the interwebs, can anyone confirm?

Why is the term "dwarf" used in discussions about Green Malayans?

Contrary to popular belief, the term dwarf does not refer to the overall, mature size that one of these trees will achieve or a slower growth rate but rather to the size at which the tree will start to produce fruit (coconuts).

A Green Malayan will begin to fruit at approximately 2’-3’ of grey wood where as the Maypan will not produce until it reaches approximately 6’-8’ gw.

Ehh, it's not entirely true. Pure Malayans do eventually grow pretty tall, but they take much longer to get there than tall types. Here's a post that I made a while back from information that I got from Dave Romney's book "Growing Coconuts in South Florida":

After reading through the Dave Romney book on coconuts (he is regarded as a coconut expert in these parts), I think I might be able to answer your question at least somewhat. One problem is that the named varieties here are different from the names elsewhere, and we only have a few varieties here so it's only difficult because it's a little muddied up by hybridization. The Malayan dwarves here originated from a few trees brought to Jamaica after hurricanes in 1944 and 1951 hit the island, they imported dwarves to test hurricane resistance. Although dwarves are self pollinating, seeds from maypan and Jamaica tall palms have been used to grow "malayan" coconuts by unknowledgeable nurseries, so many "dwarves" here are some type of Fn (n being some number greater than or equal to 1) maypan or mayjam, exhibiting a variety of characteristics intermediate between the two. Pure Malayans are ideally grown from someone who knows the origins of the coconut, and the pure ones look much like the ones in Australia, with a slim trunk and short (but not as short as a fiji dwarf) trunk. They have no bowl at the base also and medium length leaves. This is in contrast to a fiji dwarf, which has a thick trunk and some bowl with short leaves. Spicata are easy to tell, with the nuts all growing on one branchlet. There are two types of tall type here, Panama (or Pacific) and Jamaica (or Atlantic). The Jamaica tall has late germinating (50% sprouting by 14-16 weeks), elongated fruits with 18% of the weight of the seed being the water inside. The Panama tall has early germinating (50% sprouting by 10-12 weeks) large oblate fruit, with 33% of the weight due to water. The Panama tall is somewhat faster, producing a trunk on average of 33 feet by 30 years, with the Jamaica tall producing a trunk of 30 feet in the same amount of time. Both tall types in Florida are attributed to having either green or bronze/green petiole color, though Jeff in Costa Rica has posted some that have golden petioles, and my Panama tall from Dave Romney also has golden petioles. Both produce a bole with long leaves and a thick trunk, though Jamaica tall curves more, which is attributed to being more top heavy when it first develops trunk, so wind coupled with soggy soil can cause the palm to fall somewhat and develop the lean. Neither are self pollinating, so any coconuts from a tall will have one parent being a different palm, so nuts collected from these ideally should be hand pollinated or at least grown right next to another of the same type (as the two at Kopsick grow). I've heard that Panama tall grows a more umbrella shaped crown, while Jamaica tall has leaves extending all the way down, but I've seen Panama talls have leaves extending all the way down so I think this characteristic can be variable in the Panama tall. I don't think it's variable in the Jamaica tall. There is a semi-tall coconut called the king coconut which has many characteristics of the tall types, including a bowl at the base and a thick trunk, but is self fertile and has orange nuts and petioles. Those are the only coconuts common in cultivation in Florida.

Keith, that's a great rundown. Here in the Keys it's very confusing as we have so many and with varying characteristics. There are old survivor Jamaicans (or primarily that) around, and I'm assuming these have acquired resistance, or hybridized successfully to be resistant to, LY over the generations with the disease present in the environment), but also Panama/Pacific Talls and of course every other thing you can imagine with petiole colors all over the map, round or long fruit (this is the first I knew that a Jamaican can be distinguished by its long fruit). We have some beautiful coconuts around here with caramel-colored fruit, generally almost round to a tiny bit elongate, and many trees with magnificent, fat boles and leaning, curving trunks. I am still very much learning this and it is quite a conundrum I'm in trying to figure it all out. But I can say that I have in my landscape about ten Maypans (confirmed by Carol Romney that the nursery from which I got them is reliable as to what they're selling...and they are indeed lacking boles); and I also have purchased from Dave and Carol Romney a Fiji Dwarf ('Niu Leka'), Panama/Pacific Tall and a yellow-petioled hybrid (between Fiji Dwarf and, if I remember correctly, the Malay Gold). The Panama Tall is the fastest growing thing I can imagine, faster than the Maypans (and they still put on almost 2 ft of trunk per year), and the Fiji Dwarf is unbelievably slow (though it gets no irrigation). The yellow hybrid is moderately slow, I would say, faster than Fiji Dwarf, though. Other seedlings from the area and from my own trees are now in the ground and grow at all sorts of differing speeds...so all I can confirm is that it is not an easy thing to lay out!

It has also been postulated, and I think there may be truth to it, that the lack of a bole in a coconut may also give the plant a structural weakness and its probable demise in a hurricane. I personally love the big bole, leaning trunk and absolutely huge leaves of the Jamaicans and Panamas and I would have planted Panamas for the most part if I had known the Maypans have no bole at the base. I seek out this big-bole, leaning/big-crown character-set in the parent trees of local fruit that I plant here. The Romneys told me their Panama/Pacific Talls have never succumbed to LY on their properties in Homestead. So I have two of those here to add to the genetics of my own landscape.

Anyone wanting further info should pick up the phone and call Dave Romney or his daughter Carol (who runs the farm now), they are extraordinarily kind and friendly people with loads and loads of knowledge. Their nursery is beautiful, and set--of course--in a wonderful coconut grove, and they have varieties for sale that cannot be found elsewhere. Dave saved the Jamaican coconut industry when LY decimated the island, and that is no mean feat!

[Arturo Boston]

I’m growing Jamaican tall and a niu leka Fiji dwarf.  And they are going at the same rate.    I live in Puerto Rico and they are growing super fast in clay soil.    

Edited February 15, 2024 by Arturo Boston

[Bkue]

I have a few in central Florida. One came from Lowe’s as a dwarf. The other as a seed from a tall in captiva. Squirrels got a few but one is Going strong. The tall is much faster.