FULL SUN SEEDLINGS or not?

[Breadfruit Bill]

I'm already starting to see some radicals popping out of the seeds in the Aquarium Germinator...    :laugh:    :laugh:

Fish Tank Incubator thread   :cool:  (shameless plug for my prior thread)

Does anyone have experience with these particular species?  I know all these plants are some of the slowest growing palms on earth, so I'm looking for any practical (or even not so practical ) advice to help them on their way to becoming full grown!  Should these seedlings be put in full sun immediately of wait for a few years?  What have you done with these species?

Coccothrinax azul

Coccothrinax moaensis

Psuedophoenix ekmanii

Psuedophoenix vinifera

Thrinax ekmaniana

Zombia antillarum

[Jeff Searle]

Bill,

   You really need to treat these like most one-two leaf seedlings, in that you still will have to keep them in some shade. They will look and grow better. Not in deep shade, but just some relief, especially through our hot summers.

Jeff

[MattyB]

I can tell you from experience that Pseudophoenix ekmanii will burn in sun as a young plant.  Very surprising to me.

[SubTropicRay]

My Coccothrinax azul, moaensis, gracilis, ekmanii, alexandrii, miraguama var. roseocarpa, pauciramosa, scoparia and camagueyana saplings have been baking their proverbial palm-brains out since I've had them.  The same is true for my juvie Zombias grown from seed.  These two genera (at least) are forgiving from a young age when it comes to full sun exposure.  Many of these have no shade to speak in their native habitats.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Ray,

Do you have a photo you could post of those guys?

Bill

[Really full garden]

I have my Zombias,Coccothrinax ,Pseudophoenix seedlings where they get full sun for five hours.I have no doubts that they can take full sun all day.I over pot all seedlings in this group.They spend the first year or so growing an extensive root system.I plant them out in the garden as soon as they are big enough not to be stepped on by my dogs.

                                 Scott

[Carlo Morici]

Most but not all will tolerate full sun since an early age. All of them prefere some shading during the hottest months. In habitat, seedlings of most species live among generally low grasses that give some protection. Some get filtered shade by surrounding shrubs.

Thrinacinae from high-elevation or wetter areas prefere some more shade during the early years. I think the genus Pseudophoenix also enjoys some light shading when young. Even P.ekmanii, as Matty wrote. Maybe P.sargentii, often from sandy beaches, can take more sun as a seedling.

On the other hand Thrinacinae from dry, hot areas need full sun since their birth, at least during the cooler months, in the subtropics or in the cooler tropics. This is the case of your Hemithrinax ekmaniana.

As a thumb rule, try to give them full sun as much as you think they can take, especially in the cooler months. You will get stronger plants, slower at first, but healthier on the long term. "Full sun" does not mean baking pot and roots above + 50 C. Small plants are often kept in small pots and they can oveheat. Some minor shading should be used during waves of hot weather, even some straw thrown over the potted plants.

Carlo

[SubTropicRay]

William,

I will try to post some photos tomorrow.

Did you acquire a Hemithrinax (Thrinax) ekmaniana?  If you did, you are one of only a handful in the US with one.

Ray

[Breadfruit Bill]

Thanks everyone!

(Carlo Morici @ Mar. 12 2007,19:39)

QUOTE

In habitat, seedlings of most species...

Sometimes I forget, but there is always someone here who re-grounds me...

Nature is the best teacher and a watchful eye of how our prized palms transact with their habitat can give us insight to what makes a palm most successful!

Sometimes, all the books in world can not fully paint the picture of actually being in habitat!  Thanks for the info!

(Ray @ Tampa,Mar. 12 2007,20:06)

QUOTE

Did you acquire a Hemithrinax (Thrinax) ekmaniana?

None such luck Ray... I purchased these seeds from RPS.  So far they have done nothing...   but I will be patient.  They were pretty dried up when they arrived...  I'm sure germination will be very irratic if at all.     I will certainly keep ya'll posted!

[mike453]

(PiousPalms @ Mar. 12 2007,23:34)

QUOTE

(Ray @ Tampa,Mar. 12 2007,20:06)

QUOTE

Did you acquire a Hemithrinax (Thrinax) ekmaniana?

None such luck Ray... I purchased these seeds from RPS.  So far they have done nothing...   but I will be patient.  They were pretty dried up when they arrived...  I'm sure germination will be very irratic if at all.     I will certainly keep ya'll posted!

Hello William,

Please keep us posted on these, I think I started mine about 2 weeks before you did. I will let you know when mine start to germinate, so you can be ready!

                              Mike

[chris.oz]

Adding to the chorus,  I would not put ANY palm seedlings in full sun.  50% to 70% shade cloth is ideal IMO.

Just check out the professional palm growers.  They use shdae cloth pretty much until palms get their character leaves.

[Trópico]

Make sure to acclimatize by gradually exposing to sun; full sun after deep shade = sunburns.

[Carlo Morici]

Yes, be careful. My experience is chiefly based in the Canary Islands, which are oceanic islands, quintessentially coastal. Seedling growth in climates that get hotter can need more shade.

Here temperature and humidity are rather stable even though sunlight is as intense as anywhere at 28 N. We too have hot spells above 34 C, with humidity below 40% , but it is once or twice a year and they last 2-4 days, not weeks or months as in other places.

Carlo

[SubTropicRay]

I had no idea Hemithrinax ekmaniana seed was available substantial quantities.  Please keep us informed on germination rates.

Carlo,  I have three C. torrida seedlings from the batch of seeds you sent.  I will keep you informed on their progress.

Ray

[Carlo Morici]

Coccothrinax torrida needs very strong light. Some seedlings died for overshading in Cuba (!), during "winter". I have "fulsunned" my seedlings since they sprouted (in September) and I will soon give some little shading.

I am glad you have three. I have just five, our of 33 seeds I have sown. Keep an eye - postgerminators may still appear.

[chris.oz]

(Carlo Morici @ Mar. 13 2007,08:30)

QUOTE

Yes, be careful. My experience is chiefly based in the Canary Islands, which are oceanic islands, quintessentially coastal. Seedling growth in climates that get hotter can need more shade.

Here temperature and humidity are rather stable even though sunlight is as intense as anywhere at 28 N. We too have hot spells above 34 C, with humidity below 40% , but it is once or twice a year and they last 2-4 days, not weeks or months as in other places.

Carlo

The trick is to find the right combination of air movement,  humidity and prevent small seedling pots from drying out in the sun.      Small pots can dry out and if they do,  the medium often becomes very hard to re-wet.

I have a limited growing area,  and want to use small pots,  but if in the full sun the small pots have to be watered every day.   We have water restrictions,  so can only water 2 days per week,  hence shade cloth is the only solution.

Most palms can actually take a lot of shade. They slow down.     In another thread Clayton reveals how he uses the shade to slow the growth to enable him to keep a flow of palms coming to saleable size over a period of time,  from a single  batch of seeds.

[Ken Johnson]

Have any of you ever planted seed directly in the ground? It works great. If you plan well and chose the right spot, they will sprout, grow up and never look back. I have done thousands this way!

[Breadfruit Bill]

(Ken Johnson @ Mar. 13 2007,18:23)

QUOTE

Have any of you ever planted seed directly in the ground? It works great. If you plan well and chose the right spot, they will sprout, grow up and never look back. I have done thousands this way!

I would absolutely love to Ken!  Only problem is I don't own any land, other than what is under my townhouse!     For now I will be a container micro farmer!  Maybe someday I'll have a yard to fill up with beautiful palms!

(No that is not a que for ya'll to offer space in your yards!  Feeling like I've been around enough to know how you guys think!  ::  )

[Ken Johnson]

It could be time for the mystery palm seed planter to strike around town.

Ever read the posts about palms that just sprout up, seemingly out of no where?

Are you following my hint?

There is a great "urban myth" about palm seed being droped from an airplane in Hawaii!

[Breadfruit Bill]

Hmmm....  Ortanique's seed give away....   Hmmmm......

[Ken Johnson]

A seed place just behind a sign may make it! Try to drop it right next to the post.

[mike453]

(mike453 @ Mar. 12 2007,23:44)

QUOTE

(PiousPalms @ Mar. 12 2007,23:34)

QUOTE

(Ray @ Tampa,Mar. 12 2007,20:06)

QUOTE

Did you acquire a Hemithrinax (Thrinax) ekmaniana?

None such luck Ray... I purchased these seeds from RPS.  So far they have done nothing...   but I will be patient.  They were pretty dried up when they arrived...  I'm sure germination will be very irratic if at all.     I will certainly keep ya'll posted!

Hello William,

Please keep us posted on these, I think I started mine about 2 weeks before you did. I will let you know when mine start to germinate, so you can be ready!

                              Mike

These seeds are germinating!

I dug two of them out today, both hat small roots coming out  It looks like the germination rate will be good. 52 days at 90F

                          Mike

[Breadfruit Bill]

Mike, thanks for the pic!  Those Hemithrinax seeds are only a couple millimeters across...  I'm sure getting a good photo wasn't all that simple!  Mine were sewn on 2-24-07...  Now I'm getting anxious!!!  As soon as I got your news I ran to check the germinator to find I had spouts of P. vinifera and P. ekmanii!!!  Guess I'm gonna have to get those VHO grow lights now...   :cool:

Keep us posted on the progress! Lets see some leaves!!!

Psuedophoenix vinifera

Psuedophoenix ekmanii

[mike453]

Hello William,

I will post another picture when the leaves start to emerge! The picture was not easy to take, since I did not want to leave the seed out of the germination mix for long. I don't even think these guys are 1/8 inch in diameter. I only got ten of these seeds since I did not want to spend that much money, only to find out they weren't going to grow. Now I wish I would have gotten 100, I'm thinking of placing another order before they run out.

                   Regards, Mike

[Kris]

Dear Guys  

nice topic you have started and iam closely watching & also

learning a lot from your discussions !  

and those stills are indeed terrefic man..

thanks & love,

Kris  

[mike453]

William and other interested parties,

I had a couple of these Hemi's break ground today.

Not much to look at, but I am happy. I know there are more germinated under the soil due to my excavations. Here is a picture of the "larger" one, the piece of osmocote is .114 inches in diameter (2.9mm) for size reference. I think I will be leaving them alone now  untill they are big enough to transplant

            Regards, Mike

(No it's not a root, I dug down to make sure)

[Zac in NC]

Wow, this is a cool thread. Congrats Mike.

Zac

[Breadfruit Bill]

Mike,

What did you use for medium?  baggie technique?  How'd you do it?

B

[mike453]

Hello william,

I used a finer grained mix than I usually do, since these seeds were so small.  25% ea. of perlite, ground sphagnum moss, Canadian sphagnum peat and vermiculite. 4/10 up today and they are turning a very light green. I hope all 10 come up, that would be great

I think you will begin to see germination in a couple weeks, these seeds appear to be very viable!  I posted the above pic so you will know what you are dealing with, tiny little white "hairs" that with my eyes are quite hard to see  

I am looking forward to seeing pics of yours when they come up.

           All the best, Mike

Oh I forgot, I used a 1 quart sealed tupperware type container for the 10 seeds.

[Breadfruit Bill]

I don't think anyone would get bored with our palm info here...  and if they do get bored, that's their problem!   ::   Maybe someone out there is trying these seeds but is too shy to talk on the forum!  I will make your info public!   :cool:

Hello william,

I thought I would give you some statistics on my germination without boring everyone on the list  

The seeds started germinating at 52 days, first sprout to emerge was at 62 days. The last one to come up, number 9 of 10 seeds was today. (72 days) I have one seed that has done nothing, I am soaking it in rooting hormone and will re-sow it and see. Not realy a remote germinator, the seed puts down about a 1-1/2 to 2 inch root first and then the sprout emerges from the top of the root about 1/16" from the seed. The roots are feathery and fragile so be carefull with them. If you are starting these in perlite you may have a hard time seeing the emergence as they stay white for a few days even with lighting. The sprouts are only about .020" diameter when they emerge, I used a 10X jewelers loupe to see them. I hope this info helps with your success, it will be nice to have more of these palms in cultivation to ensure their survival. Oh and these guys don't mind the heat, they have been up to 105 F without any problems at all. Most are 1-1/2" tall and are splitting now, they kind of look like a snakes tounge.

       Best wishes and good luck,

                        Mike

--------------

Zone 5B Toledo, OH

I grow palms..... and have high utility bills to prove it.  

Subsequently...  Last night I took a look in my fish tank germinator...  I counted seven little white hairs that had broken ground and were on their way to turning green!   :laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:   VERY exciting!  I will try to take a picture to post tonight...  Dang, these things are the smallest sprouts I have ever seen!!!

[Kris]

Dear William & Dear Mike  

william great work of bringing that info to public,thats a very

generous attitude you got man ! and mike that ifo is indeed

terrefic !

i want either of you to either rewrite this text in my thread on

materials needed for germination.since it will be of emence help for all who want to try the art of germination.

i hope you guys will not disappoint me_Please !

all info vital to seed germination kindly fill in that thread folks..

lots of people should be benifited by your expertise &

knowledge.this is a humble request friends.

thanks & Love,

Kris  

[mike453]

Hi William,

It is good to hear that your Thrinax seeds are germinating. Even faster than mine did, I guess I am going to have to build a fish tank incubator. It seems that your set-up is working well. I have a couple 29 gallons I am not using. Maybe it's time to retire the oven incubator and start using it for cooking. I know my girlfriend would appreciate it  I would like to see some pics. of your seedlings.

How are your P ekmanii seeds doing? I have started a second batch, but these seeds are giving me heck, the P vinifera and P sargentii are doing well though. Maybe I will try another seed source (if I can find one) I know, good luck on that one

Kris, I think that You, William, Clayton and others have done a great job with giving germination instructions. I use the baggie method or a tupperware type container at 90 degrees F (32.2 C) I beleive that germination techniques can really vary due to conditions in ones particular location. Humidity, temperature fluctuation, elevation and moisture required are all factors. There is enough information on this board to be very successful germinating any type of palm seed, I think the info just has to be fine tuned for ones particular situation. I wish all the info on this board regarding germination was in one place for easy access to our members.

                      Regards, Mike

[SubTropicRay]

Mike,

I just ordered some H. ekmaniana seed from RPS myself.  Hopefully, they're still viable by the time they get here.  How long did it take to receive them from the time you ordered?  What is the viablility period for Hemithrinax seed?  What type of potting mix did you use to germinate these?

Thanks in advance,

Ray

[mike453]

(Ray, Tampa @ Apr. 03 2007,14:03)

QUOTE

 What type of potting mix did you use to germinate these?

Hello Ray,

See post 29 for the mix I used. I think william is using a different mix than I did, and his have started to come up also. No idea how long these will remain viable, but if I were to guess, I would say you will have no problems. It takes a week from the time seeds are shipped from RPS for them to be delivered to me, they say that they ship within 7 days. Sometimes they take longer. Usually I get very good service from them, I have only had a couple problems over several years.

               Regards, Mike

[Breadfruit Bill]

Just to chime in here...  I placed my order 6 days before funds were withdrawn from my account on 2-5-07...  I recieved my seeds on 2-23-07.  

I was very impressed with speed on this order.  

I ordered from RPS one other time (about 2400 seeds) and they took almost 3 months from order date to arrival.  I got less than diserable germination rates from that order...  As I recall my seeds sat in customs for almost one month... certainly no fault of Toby's.

Good Luck with those seeds Ray, did you order 100?

Keep us informed of your progress!

[Breadfruit Bill]

Mike you were right!  These Hemi's are hard as all to find on a white medium!  I found an extra one when I started taking pictures tonight!  So far, at 39 days into germination, The following have germinated and grown above soil (yes, not digging around in the soil to check germination status is extreeeemly difficult)

Satakentia liukiuensis...  0/100  (I can't seem to ever get fresh seed on this one)

Coccothrinax sp. "Azul"...  3/104

Coccothrinax moaensis...  0/101 (keep your fingers crossed boys)

Psuedophoenix ekmanii...  7/100

Psuedophoenix sargentii... 2/34

Psuedophoenix vinifera...  22/100

Thrinax ekmaniana...  8/116

I thought I had good humidity this week and was keeping a fairly constant 75% without watering...  When I opened the hood to the tank I discovered that my humidity gauge had rusted itself in a 75% position...  GRRRRR...  Here I was thinking I was keeping accurate readings of the condition and my instraments failed on me!  I broke it free and lubricated it with some PB Blaster, carefully cleaned it, tested it, and returned it to the grow tank.  Oh well so much for precision!  Afterwards I measured about 50% humidty in the tank, not too bad.  But I decided it need some more so I changed the water in the resivoir a second time and watered for 15 minutes...  Humidity increased immediately to 80%, that should be good for now!  BLah BLah BLah!!!  Here's some photos!

Coccothrinax sp. "Azul"  (all you name guys please ignore the tag in the pot, I'll change it when these guys get potted up)

Psuedophoenix ekamnii

Pseudophoenix sargentii

[Breadfruit Bill]

Psuedophoenix vinifera

Thrinax ekmaniana (Man these little teeny tinys were hard to get a decent photo of!)

[SubTropicRay]

I only ordered 20 seeds so success may be a long shot.  

Mike, your Tupperware container for germination is totally enclosed?  Sorry If I am a bit confused here.

Thanks again for the input gents.

[mike453]

Hi Ray,

Yes I left the top sealed, they seem to like the high humidity. Only after they had germinated I removed the top and I placed the container in a 1 gallon ziploc bag and left the top open. They are all in seperate pots now, and doing well. The temperature is generally 90-95 with high humidity and they seem to like it. I only ordered 10 seeds and have 9 healthy seedlings so that should give you at least 18 right?

                  regards, Mike

[SubTropicRay]

Thanks Mike.  I'm looking forward to receiving my seeds.