Well drained soil. What exactly does that mean?

[HorsesnPalms]

Okay so this maybe a really stupid question. But when someone says make sure its well drained soil. What exactly does that mean.

Does it mean when you pour water in it should immediately run right through in a pot? What about palms in the ground?

Let's take the Chambeyronia macrocarpa hookeri for example.

I was told a potted Chambeyronia hookeri should have a fair amount of drainage. I have one in a 20 gallon pot. Now its getting some brown leaves and drooping a bit and doesn't look like it should. It was on my lanai and I don't water it a lot, just when it looks like it needs it. Yesterday I put it out under a canopy and we got a ship load of rain. Its of course very wet now. Which is making me concerned.

Next example Dypsis Album.. this thing looked like a million bucks it was growing like a weed. In a 5 gallon pot. Now all of its leaves are turning brown and it looks well like crap. I put it outside under the same canopy and of course it got soaked too.

So I want to be sure that I fully understand the well drained soil instructions. How long should it take for water to run all the way through? Right now the Chambeyronia doesn't run all the way through unless you continually put water on it.

What should the ratio of lets say perlite, sand and soil be for those requiring good drainage? I don't want to kill off these palms that I am so proud of.

Any other suggestions of ideas are always welcomed.

[Silas_Sancona]

HorsesnPalms,

While others here may have different opinions on ideal soil mix ratios, the basic goal is to provide both adequate moisture, and air at the root zone. A heavy soil mix can stay too wet and can greatly reduce the amount air that can circulate through it which can lead to root rot/ crown rot issues, etc. I myself use a chunky mix for 90% of my palms, as well as most of my other specimen plants, especially the stuff I am experimenting with which comes from drier areas.

Last spring, I experimented with a soil mix high in Calcined Clay, AKA Turface Allsport ( looks like earth colored kitty litter. Used a lot for Baseball fields) when I stepped up my own Chambeyronia mac. and a small Kentiopsis oliviformis. Both were in a soil mix heavy in Peat and sand and I had noticed that the mix stayed wet for too long, especially during the winter. I also used this same mix for several Plumeria seedlings id stepped up at the same time. By October, Id noticed roots starting to push out of the pot on both palms. The Plumeria also filled this mix quite fast and a Calliandra I stepped up filled in so well that It is hard to keep watered. So, in that instance, my soil formula may have worked too well.

Another test came when I transferred a Cyphophoenix elegans id picked up. The soil it was in also stayed wet and when I lifted it, some of the roots were starting to rot. After placing it in a lighter mix, its doing well.

The one thing I noticed in switching gears on the soil mix was when I water, there is less issues with the soil shrinking away from the sides of the pots, and the mix itself retains moisture longer.. but not enough that the soil stays soaking wet. There is also a lot of space for good air circulation. Succulents I keep on the Lanai here can go up to 3 weeks between soakings. Plants Id left in the Peat-based stuff has a tendency to either stay too wet, or dry out super fast and then takes forever to re-soak. Plants out in the yard have a similar problem in the high -peat soil mixes. Water tends to run down the sides of the pots if I allow them to dry for too long.


As far as the palms go, I tend to water the stuff in pots twice a week, filling each to the brim a couple times until there is a lot of water running through each pot. Sometimes I will come back and fill it a third time just to be sure. If we get a good rain, i'll back off unless the soil is still dry about 3 inches down into the pot. A nursery id obtained several Cactus starters from uses the "Popcicle stick/ Tongue depresser" method on their plants. Their basic philosophy revolves around sticking the tongue depresser into the soil and waiting an hour or so. If, when it is pulled out, it is still wet, the plants can go another day or so before needing to be watered.

Again, for me, my basic soil formula follows this rule:

50% Turface
30% Pearlite or Pumice (quite hard to find here in FL. Experimenting with Growstones ( Looks a lot like pumice but is made from recycled glass. I use the small sized material)
20% potting soil.. or a good organic compost. (Have come across stuff labeled "compost/ organic potting soil that was basically heavy top soil. Nasty stuff)

While I have used it, I had a lot of bad experiences with a soil mix high in sand or peat moss. I also adjust the % of each component as needed for each plant. ( i.e. Chamaedorea microspadix enjoys a soil higher in organic material, Echinopsis candicans wants a soil mix with no less than 70% Pumice/Turface in it.) Still, the soil in each is light and drains off well. Works real good for striking cuttings/ cactus offsets also. Jury is still out on how well palm seedlings develop in this mix though.

Hope this helps and good luck.

-Nathan-

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Interesting topic, well drained to me means the water drains readily. But water retention and aeration are two attributes you can readily adjust with perlite and vermiculite no matter what you use as the base substrate. You just have to adjust the amounts of perlite and vermiculite depending on what your substrate is.

Most potting mixes are often way too light, and have a tendency to shrink away from the wall of the pot when too dry. That comes mostly from using peat moss, which I would advise against under all circumstances. This makes it almost impossible to re-wet, especially since peat moss repels water when dry but can seriously retain water and cause rot when wet. Since I target most of my palms to be ultimately planted in my garden, I do a 50-50 mix between my native sandy loam soil and organic compost. This sometimes drains too fast but it doesn't shrink. If it's a specially rare palm and I don't want to take any chances, i will add a chunk of perlite and vermiculite to the mix to increase both water retention and aeration.

[HorsesnPalms]

  On 5/30/2014 at 2:56 AM, Silas_Sancona said:

HorsesnPalms,

While others here may have different opinions on ideal soil mix ratios, the basic goal is to provide both adequate moisture, and air at the root zone. A heavy soil mix can stay too wet and can greatly reduce the amount air that can circulate through it which can lead to root rot/ crown rot issues, etc. I myself use a chunky mix for 90% of my palms, as well as most of my other specimen plants, especially the stuff I am experimenting with which comes from drier areas.

Last spring, I experimented with a soil mix high in Calcined Clay, AKA Turface Allsport ( looks like earth colored kitty litter. Used a lot for Baseball fields) when I stepped up my own Chambeyronia mac. and a small Kentiopsis oliviformis. Both were in a soil mix heavy in Peat and sand and I had noticed that the mix stayed wet for too long, especially during the winter. I also used this same mix for several Plumeria seedlings id stepped up at the same time. By October, Id noticed roots starting to push out of the pot on both palms. The Plumeria also filled this mix quite fast and a Calliandra I stepped up filled in so well that It is hard to keep watered. So, in that instance, my soil formula may have worked too well.

Another test came when I transferred a Cyphophoenix elegans id picked up. The soil it was in also stayed wet and when I lifted it, some of the roots were starting to rot. After placing it in a lighter mix, its doing well.

The one thing I noticed in switching gears on the soil mix was when I water, there is less issues with the soil shrinking away from the sides of the pots, and the mix itself retains moisture longer.. but not enough that the soil stays soaking wet. There is also a lot of space for good air circulation. Succulents I keep on the Lanai here can go up to 3 weeks between soakings. Plants Id left in the Peat-based stuff has a tendency to either stay too wet, or dry out super fast and then takes forever to re-soak. Plants out in the yard have a similar problem in the high -peat soil mixes. Water tends to run down the sides of the pots if I allow them to dry for too long.

As far as the palms go, I tend to water the stuff in pots twice a week, filling each to the brim a couple times until there is a lot of water running through each pot. Sometimes I will come back and fill it a third time just to be sure. If we get a good rain, i'll back off unless the soil is still dry about 3 inches down into the pot. A nursery id obtained several Cactus starters from uses the "Popcicle stick/ Tongue depresser" method on their plants. Their basic philosophy revolves around sticking the tongue depresser into the soil and waiting an hour or so. If, when it is pulled out, it is still wet, the plants can go another day or so before needing to be watered.

Again, for me, my basic soil formula follows this rule:

50% Turface

30% Pearlite or Pumice (quite hard to find here in FL. Experimenting with Growstones ( Looks a lot like pumice but is made from recycled glass. I use the small sized material)

20% potting soil.. or a good organic compost. (Have come across stuff labeled "compost/ organic potting soil that was basically heavy top soil. Nasty stuff)

While I have used it, I had a lot of bad experiences with a soil mix high in sand or peat moss. I also adjust the % of each component as needed for each plant. ( i.e. Chamaedorea microspadix enjoys a soil higher in organic material, Echinopsis candicans wants a soil mix with no less than 70% Pumice/Turface in it.) Still, the soil in each is light and drains off well. Works real good for striking cuttings/ cactus offsets also. Jury is still out on how well palm seedlings develop in this mix though.

Hope this helps and good luck.

-Nathan-

Hi Nathan! I truly appreciate your reply. I haven't ever heard of Turface before. I guess since I don't hang out on the baseball field. But did a Google search and saw how cool it was. I also found that big bonsai suppliers use it in their plants. I saw that you can buy it at a John Deere Landscape store, so I am headed there tomorrow.

I have also had a lot of seedlings just up and die. I am thinking that this will probably do good for them too. I also have a lot of plumeria seedlings. So definitely going to repot those and use your suggestion. Thank you so much!

  On 5/30/2014 at 6:26 AM, Brahea Axel said:

Interesting topic, well drained to me means the water drains readily. But water retention and aeration are two attributes you can readily adjust with perlite and vermiculite no matter what you use as the base substrate. You just have to adjust the amounts of perlite and vermiculite depending on what your substrate is.

Most potting mixes are often way too light, and have a tendency to shrink away from the wall of the pot when too dry. That comes mostly from using peat moss, which I would advise against under all circumstances. This makes it almost impossible to re-wet, especially since peat moss repels water when dry but can seriously retain water and cause rot when wet. Since I target most of my palms to be ultimately planted in my garden, I do a 50-50 mix between my native sandy loam soil and organic compost. This sometimes drains too fast but it doesn't shrink. If it's a specially rare palm and I don't want to take any chances, i will add a chunk of perlite and vermiculite to the mix to increase both water retention and aeration.

Thank you very much for your input! I did start off in the very beginning with a mix of peat moss and soil. They did okay, but do agree that re-wetting it, is very difficult. I certainly have a lot of rare palms and when some started looking unhappy I had to start looking for a change.

[MattyB]

Chambeyronia like lots of water and can grow in clay soil. Don't be afraid to water yours more.

[Sabal Steve]

I've bought plants before in finely chopped mulch. This drains great, but over time, it will decompose and stay much more moist I assume. Has anyone used this as a medium for potted palms or in ground ones?

[Silas_Sancona]

Steve,

Have picked up stuff in a similar medium and had similar end results. Wouldn't plant stuff directly into a soil with a lot of wood mulch in it. Just my opinion though. I have heard that adding some fine grade fir or pine bark works well to add extra organic matter to mixes for plants which like it. Use a lot of chunky Coconut pieces for Orchids I keep in Baskets.

HorsesnPalms: No problem and you're welcome. Follow Matty B's pointer regarding Chambeyronia. Always gain good info from his posts.

-Nathan-

[Tropicdoc]

I thought vermiculite stays too wet. It is cheaper than perlite though

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

  On 6/2/2014 at 2:32 AM, Tropicdoc said:

I thought vermiculite stays too wet. It is cheaper than perlite though

Vermiculite is for water retention, perlite is for aeration, you can't substitute one for the other even though perlite also retains a little water. I use vermiculite for those palms that don't mind heavier mixes and need the extra water retention. A perfect example are sabal. I would not use vermiculite on brahea for example.

[earthworm73]

  On 6/2/2014 at 5:16 AM, Brahea Axel said:

 

Vermiculite is for water retention, perlite is for aeration, you can't substitute one for the other even though perlite also retains a little water. I use vermiculite for those palms that don't mind heavier mixes and need the extra water retention. A perfect example are sabal. I would not use vermiculite on brahea for example.

Expand  

What do you guys think of using 50% compost/peat based potting "soil" and 50% Turface in a pot for sabals and needle palm? Right now I have some needle palms and sabals in fabric pots with 80% compost/peat mix and 20% perlite. The needles came with crappy looking roots (dark tan-ish and not very extensive). One even has a strap leaf that is starting to turn slightly dark and curling inward. I know it's from the roots (shock). Wondering if I should replace the medium with the one mentioned above.

[_Keith]

Wet or dry, just about every plant is said to like "well drained soil."   Other than a manufactured greenhouse soil, which covers most mixes. I think it is a myth.   Really, you got a bog, or normal soil, or a desert.  Unless water sits for days, you are likely good, unless it is a desert plant, and even then things surprise you.  Shoot me now for saying it.   Relax.  It lives or it doesn't.

[Kim]

Potted palms are different from palms in the ground.  It can really make a difference in a pot if the soil is too heavy or dries out too quickly.  In dry California, I would not use much peat in pots.  Once dry, it resists wetting again. Palms in bags need to be planted in the ground, imho. They must dry out so  quickly = tough on the roots.  In a greenhouse, sure, they can be all right, but not outdoors.  Too dry = dead.  Too wet = dead.  Happy medium = survivor.

[foxtail]

I always have the same question!!!! Another thing that confuse me a lot is:

Soil requirements: " Tolerate clay soil in a well drained position " 

Edited March 16, 2016 by foxtail