Please some help from the palmophiles before I file a lawsuit!

[Phoenikakias]

I have observed two days ago damages on leaves of one of my palms, which leads me by circumstantial evidence to the conclusion that a neighbour of mine has sprayed herbicide on public place right outside my property and this has affected my nearest and most exposed palm. So I need to consult all of you whether those signs of necrosis on leaflets is indication of phytotoxicity through herbicide.

Right behind the affected palm you may see the wall and the fencing wire with climbing plants. After this wall there is the public place where the application of herbicide must have taken place.

[Jeff Searle]

Proof.......

[Phoenikakias]

Another clump of palms next to the affected one seem OK but the wall behind them is higher and thus the palms are more protected.

I checked ground outside my property and observed dead oxalis weed while other herbs and weeds seem healthy. Naturally oxalis dies back during our dry and warm season but it is yet to early for its natural decline (I know that for sure because I have also oxalis growing in my property also on sites with no irrigation)

Edited March 31, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

More pics of this public place. It is on a higher elevation than the garden in my property on this spot.

[Phoenikakias]

This is the general view of the site right outside my property near the point my palm grows insude the garden (right after the corner).

On the left side of this downsloping road is my garden, and neighbour's garden is on the right side.

He maintains a lawn in his garden, in which oxalis is very invasive, so either he/she sprayed his garden without elementary precaustion measures and wind carried herbicide over my palm or (even worse) he sparayed also on the public place right outside my property to prevent oxalis from seeding, because seeds could be well be transported by wind back to his/her garden.

[Phoenikakias]

So my next question is, which herbide kills primarily oxalis but not other weeds (like wild cereals) and affects also palms? Is there any chance that my palm survives, meaning is this the final damage or should I wait for further decline and even death? If this palm is doomed, I will have to prepare for a lawsuit demanding legal and equitable remedy, meaning that I should give parts both of this palm and dead oxalis for toxicology test through a public authority (but I have to pay for this test).

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Why don't you save your money and energy. Gary Wood, the owner of south coast nursery used to spray his live palms in pots to kill the weeds. Whatever is affecting your palms is unlikely to be weed killer.

[spockvr6]

Why don't you save your money and energy. Gary Wood, the owner of south coast nursery used to spray his live palms in pots to kill the weeds. Whatever is affecting your palms is unlikely to be weed killer.

I have used Roundup around palms so many times Ive lost count........

[Phoenikakias]

Why don't you save your money and energy. Gary Wood, the owner of south coast nursery used to spray his live palms in pots to kill the weeds. Whatever is affecting your palms is unlikely to be weed killer.

Why don't you save your money and energy. Gary Wood, the owner of south coast nursery used to spray his live palms in pots to kill the weeds. Whatever is affecting your palms is unlikely to be weed killer.

I have used Roundup around palms so many times Ive lost count........

Maybe I have not made myself clear enough. Because of the difference of elevation between this spot of my garden (lower) and the road outside (higher) and because of of the wire and not a massive wall serving as fence (so that top part of affected palm reches level of road), herbicide came to contact not only with the soil around the palm but also with crown-foliage of the palm. I do not recall anyone claiming that he sprays palms with herbicide...

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Why don't you save your money and energy. Gary Wood, the owner of south coast nursery used to spray his live palms in pots to kill the weeds. Whatever is affecting your palms is unlikely to be weed killer.

Why don't you save your money and energy. Gary Wood, the owner of south coast nursery used to spray his live palms in pots to kill the weeds. Whatever is affecting your palms is unlikely to be weed killer.

I have used Roundup around palms so many times Ive lost count........

Maybe I have not made myself clear enough. Because of the difference of elevation between this spot of my garden (lower) and the road outside (higher) and because of of the wire and not a massive wall serving as fence (so that top part of affected palm reches level of road), herbicide came to contact not only with the soil around the palm but also with crown-foliage of the palm. I do not recall anyone claiming that he sprays palms with herbicide...

I don't think herbicide coming into contact with foliage on a phoenix palm is going to hurt the palm. As I've said before, Gary Wood sprayed the round up directly into the pots, plenty of it came in contact with palm foliage. Herbicide is really only effective on weeds, it doesn't work very well to kill palms. It might be able to hurt tender seedlings or tender tropical types of palms, but not tough drought tolerant mediterranean palms.

Take a couple of days to cool off and then talk to your neighbor and ask him/her to be careful when spraying round up. IMHO this isn't something worth suing over. Trust me, I have some nasty neighbors, and I avoid confrontation since I have to live next to them. One of my neighbors hated my passion vines on the fence and sprayed round up. Wasn't worth the hassle of suing or even getting angry, I just decided to grow the vine somewhere else.

[Mandrew968]

Axel, I think you are crazy when you write things like 'round up doesn't kill palm foliage'... I don't REALLY think you are crazy, but when you write things like this, it is hard for me to vouch for you...

[Phoenikakias]

Axel, I think you are crazy when you write things like 'round up doesn't kill palm foliage'... I don't REALLY think you are crazy, but when you write things like this, it is hard for me to vouch for you...

Naa, Axel is very intelligent and has realized my passion with palms. I think he tries to cool me off before I do something illegal, you know an eye for an eye (and a plant for a plant). But my general education is a good obstacle to self-justice, though I admit emotions are pressing...

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, I think you are crazy when you write things like 'round up doesn't kill palm foliage'... I don't REALLY think you are crazy, but when you write things like this, it is hard for me to vouch for you...

Andrew, you must not have used herbicides much. I've used round up on mediterranean palms and on things like brambles and other things. I've learned the hard way as to how ineffective herbicides are on things other than common weeds and common grasses. I can't even kill the crab grass in my driveway with the stuff. So when I say what I say, it's because I have first hand experience with the stuff. I've even tried using the hard core stuff labeled for heavy duty, not much better results. Other things for which roundup doesn't work includes sweet pea vines (I've soaked the leaves in roundup solution, that's how bad I wanted to get rid of it, but even that doesn't work.)

Edit: just in case you didn't know, herbicides were designed so that they harm primarily common weeds and not other plants because they're supposed to be able to be used with many crops. Hence the difficulty in killing things other than common weeds. Quoting Wikipedia:

Herbicides, also commonly known as weedkillers, are pesticides used to kill unwanted plants.^[1] Selective herbicides kill specific targets, while leaving the desired crop relatively unharmed.

[kahili]

I don't think that Roundup is considered a selective herbicide. It kills a lot of things, including crab grass (thank god!) But I don't think some drift of it will kill a larger palm. I have sprayed around my palms and am sure that I have gotten some on the leaves and no damage. Maybe if I specifically sprayed the palm leaves with good coverage, it might do some damage-but I haven't done that yet...

Phoenikakias-was it windy when he sprayed (if he did spray)? Have you fertilized those palms lately?

[Moose]

If this is herbicide damage, it does not appear enough was contacted to cause the demise of your palm. I appreciate your passion, but I don't believe you have an actionable case. Not familiar with the Greek judicial system, but universally you need to have incurred monetary damages. Plus there is an issue of intent.

Perhaps civilly discussing it with your neighbor and educating them about the proper usage of herbicides would be more beneficial to your palm in the future.

[MattyB]

I don't think your Phoenix got sprayed. The grass isn't even dead yet, that means he just sprayed a few days, maybe a week, ago. If he just sprayed a contact herbicide all over the place why aren't any of the vines dead? If he used a soil drench/total vegetation killer the grass would be long dead before you saw anything on your palms due to run-off or subsurface seepage. Something else is going on with your palm. Probably root rot or something affecting the roots.

[Peter Pacific]

Why don't you just talk to your neighbor. The brown tips on your palm could be the amount of water, or lack of, that you're giving it.

Good luck.

Peter

[SeaDouble]

My R. glauca gets that way if I overwater.

Does not look like herbicide damage to me.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SeaDouble

[Phoenikakias]

I don't think that Roundup is considered a selective herbicide. It kills a lot of things, including crab grass (thank god!) But I don't think some drift of it will kill a larger palm. I have sprayed around my palms and am sure that I have gotten some on the leaves and no damage. Maybe if I specifically sprayed the palm leaves with good coverage, it might do some damage-but I haven't done that yet...

Phoenikakias-was it windy when he sprayed (if he did spray)? Have you fertilized those palms lately?

Yes it was windy indeed and I have not fertilized plants for one year.

[kahili]

Well, like the others have said-you would have seen a lot more damage to more tender plants than a palm leave , also quicker on the more tender plant leaves and there doesn't seem to be any damage-and there would be if he were spraying in the wind. So what has the watering situation been like the past few wks? Have the palms dried out some? Wind does tend to dry plants out more and this palm could have been on the edge of dryness already

[Phoenikakias]

I don't think your Phoenix got sprayed. The grass isn't even dead yet, that means he just sprayed a few days, maybe a week, ago. If he just sprayed a contact herbicide all over the place why aren't any of the vines dead? If he used a soil drench/total vegetation killer the grass would be long dead before you saw anything on your palms due to run-off or subsurface seepage. Something else is going on with your palm. Probably root rot or something affecting the roots.

Matt, I know it is hard to believe it unless you have experienced in the past similiar thing; same herbicide in same quantity over same plants may have different effects each time is applied in my climate distinguished through very extreme weather events. I give Axel insofar right about the ineffectiveness of herbicides on mediterranean plants. Some extremely hot or extremely dry or extremely cool days during time or short after application may suffice to stop or slow down metabolism of such plants to an extent that herbicide remains ineffective...

Edited March 31, 2014 by Phoenikakias

[Phoenikakias]

Well, like the others have said-you would have seen a lot more damage to more tender plants than a palm leave , also quicker on the more tender plant leaves and there doesn't seem to be any damage-and there would be if he were spraying in the wind. So what has the watering situation been like the past few wks? Have the palms dried out some? Wind does tend to dry plants out more and this palm could have been on the edge of dryness already

Hmm, drippin system is already in action, from same line get watered also the other healthy palms next to the damaged one (all of the genus Phoenix and even from the same seed batch and in the same soil)! Normally lack of adequate soli moisture causes a shrinking of leaves and leaflets prior to necrosis. Nothing even close happens here!

[MattyB]

So, what about talking with your neighbor and expressing your concerns and see what he's doing so maybe you guys can solve this?

[Sabal Steve]

Axel, I think you are crazy when you write things like 'round up doesn't kill palm foliage'... I don't REALLY think you are crazy, but when you write things like this, it is hard for me to vouch for you...

Naa, Axel is very intelligent and has realized my passion with palms. I think he tries to cool me off before I do something illegal, you know an eye for an eye (and a plant for a plant). But my general education is a good obstacle to self-justice, though I admit emotions are pressing...

I'll admit that I'm not in tune with the Greek legal system. But I think it would be hard to prove that any of this was done w malice.

[_Keith]

There are many herbicides other than Roundup each with its own characteristics. Dimension® (dithiopyr), Pendulum® (pendimethalin), and Barricade® (prodiamine), and Trimec (2, 4-D (5.67%) MCPP (2.67%) dicamba (0.63%)) are all commonly used on Oxalis. Lumping effects under any lable of "herbicide" is a big mistake. You need to find out precisely what was used. Some of this stuff is relatively harmless and some is really bad, just all depends on what plant you are referring to regarding the effects. I learned a hard lesson with a product called "Image" years ago.

Also, sometimes it is not mobility in the soil that extends the kill, and is not drift at the time of application. It is subsequent volatlization. This is really a bad issue with 2,4-D. People think it move in the soil, or it is initial application overspray, when what really happens is the volitization that occurs in the early morning hours the next day as the heat rapidly increases. Actually it can happen days or weeks later, up to a month later. The fumes rise and drift to cause damage long after the initial application.

[Phoenikakias]

There are many herbicides other than Roundup each with its own characteristics. Dimension® (dithiopyr), Pendulum® (pendimethalin), and Barricade® (prodiamine), and Trimec (2, 4-D (5.67%) MCPP (2.67%) dicamba (0.63%)) are all commonly used on Oxalis. Lumping effects under any lable of "herbicide" is a big mistake. You need to find out precisely what was used. Some of this stuff is relatively harmless and some is really bad, just all depends on what plant you are referring to regarding the effects. I learned a hard lesson with a product called "Image" years ago.

Also, sometimes it is not mobility in the soil that extends the kill, and is not drift at the time of application. It is subsequent volatlization. This is really a bad issue with 2,4-D. People think it move in the soil, or it is initial application overspray, when what really happens is the volitization that occurs in the early morning hours the next day as the heat rapidly increases. Actually it can happen days or weeks later, up to a month later. The fumes rise and drift to cause damage long after the initial application.

Yes Keith, I am well aware of this sneaky action of fumes. The most terrible herbicide with such action is the cross-bow, it seems to last for many years (not only months) additionally...

[Phoenikakias]

I am grateful to all of you for your replies. Since to your trained eyes phytotoxicity appears to be dubious, I think I have one more reason for a toxicologic test.

[Moose]

We may have located the missing Agent Orange

[Sabal Steve]

We may have located the missing Agent Orange

How's the surf out there!

[Phoenikakias]

Moose, you should have attached also a file with Wagner's music

[Gonzer]

The Oxalis definitely shows signs of 2,4D poisoning or some other broadleaf herbicide. The Malva in the foreground, even though a broadleaf, is a somewhat tougher kill as is the Hedera which needs repeated applications. The grasses remain unaffected.

The damage to your palms though is not the result of over-spray as the patterning on the leaves is too uniform. Internal problems my friend.

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

Suing over some small palms is a self-defeating endeavor. You will spend more money than you stand to gain. Causation will be difficult to prove without the hiring of experts to testify that the death of the palm was directly caused by the neighbor's herbicide. That will cost thousands. Waste of time, energy, and your local court's already underfunded resources.

Usually in US or Anglo-based civil court (I don't pretend to know anything about the Greek system), the plaintiff doesn't have to prove malicious intent. They have to prove causation and damage. That the Defendant owed a duty of care to the plaintiff, that the Defendant breached that duty, and in doing so was the cause of some damage (physical or economic). Meeting the required finding of causation is your problem. It would be costly and unnecessarily time consuming attempting to prove causation. Not worth it.

Edited April 1, 2014 by Cocoa Beach Jason

[Mandrew968]

Axel, I think you are crazy when you write things like 'round up doesn't kill palm foliage'... I don't REALLY think you are crazy, but when you write things like this, it is hard for me to vouch for you...

Andrew, you must not have used herbicides much. I've used round up on mediterranean palms and on things like brambles and other things. I've learned the hard way as to how ineffective herbicides are on things other than common weeds and common grasses. I can't even kill the crab grass in my driveway with the stuff. So when I say what I say, it's because I have first hand experience with the stuff. I've even tried using the hard core stuff labeled for heavy duty, not much better results. Other things for which roundup doesn't work includes sweet pea vines (I've soaked the leaves in roundup solution, that's how bad I wanted to get rid of it, but even that doesn't work.)

Edit: just in case you didn't know, herbicides were designed so that they harm primarily common weeds and not other plants because they're supposed to be able to be used with many crops. Hence the difficulty in killing things other than common weeds. Quoting Wikipedia:

Herbicides, also commonly known as weedkillers, are pesticides used to kill unwanted plants.^[1] Selective herbicides kill specific targets, while leaving the desired crop relatively unharmed.

I am familiar with both the root sufix and the many forms it lends itself to, as well as round-up. Like Matty said, it can take over a week to see what round up can do, but it sure does kill a whole lot of weeds, grass and any green leaves it can come in contact with--that includes palm leaves. I know relatively little about Mediterranean anything, Axel, but I feel we are friends and so I can mess with you a little

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, I think you are crazy when you write things like 'round up doesn't kill palm foliage'... I don't REALLY think you are crazy, but when you write things like this, it is hard for me to vouch for you...

Andrew, you must not have used herbicides much. I've used round up on mediterranean palms and on things like brambles and other things. I've learned the hard way as to how ineffective herbicides are on things other than common weeds and common grasses. I can't even kill the crab grass in my driveway with the stuff. So when I say what I say, it's because I have first hand experience with the stuff. I've even tried using the hard core stuff labeled for heavy duty, not much better results. Other things for which roundup doesn't work includes sweet pea vines (I've soaked the leaves in roundup solution, that's how bad I wanted to get rid of it, but even that doesn't work.)

Edit: just in case you didn't know, herbicides were designed so that they harm primarily common weeds and not other plants because they're supposed to be able to be used with many crops. Hence the difficulty in killing things other than common weeds. Quoting Wikipedia:

Herbicides, also commonly known as weedkillers, are pesticides used to kill unwanted plants.^[1] Selective herbicides kill specific targets, while leaving the desired crop relatively unharmed.

I am familiar with both the root sufix and the many forms it lends itself to, as well as round-up. Like Matty said, it can take over a week to see what round up can do, but it sure does kill a whole lot of weeds, grass and any green leaves it can come in contact with--that includes palm leaves. I know relatively little about Mediterranean anything, Axel, but I feel we are friends and so I can mess with you a little

Andrew, no worries. My top priority is for Konstantinos to have a good time palm gardening and not sweat a few brown tips on just a few of his many if not hundreds of palms. The tradeoff between fun/funds and hell/loss of funds isn't one I'd make, no matter if I had the facts straight on the herbicides. My own personal experience has been a total failure with herbicides. The plants they work on are plants I can easily pull myself. The nasty stuff like poison oak, brambles, crab grass from hell and sweet pea vines are totally immune to all herbicides I've ever tried. Knowing how tough phoenix are, I can't imagine they'd flinch with a little vapor and meandering sprays. Watching Gary Wood spraying all of his potted palms with round up was also an eye opener. I am sure there are some more potent nasty herbicides out there, but I don't have access to them at the regular box stores or the local nurseries.

[Dypsisdean]

Axel - a thought to consider - and one I have unfortunately witnessed.

Re: Gary Wood and Round Up:

To illustrate - Take a few potted palms and spray half of them as he did. Then grow them for a couple of years and compare the growth between the two.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel - a thought to consider - and one I have unfortunately witnessed.

Re: Gary Wood and Round Up:

To illustrate - Take a few potted palms and spray half of them as he did. Then grow them for a couple of years and compare the growth between the two.

Dean, I don't plan on conducting this experiment anytime soon. I've never sprayed any potted plants with roundup and I don't plan to do so anytime soon.

[_Keith]

Axel - a thought to consider - and one I have unfortunately witnessed.

Re: Gary Wood and Round Up:

To illustrate - Take a few potted palms and spray half of them as he did. Then grow them for a couple of years and compare the growth between the two.

Dean, I don't know the answer. What was the difference in growth between the two?

[Sabal Steve]

Axel - a thought to consider - and one I have unfortunately witnessed.

Re: Gary Wood and Round Up:

To illustrate - Take a few potted palms and spray half of them as he did. Then grow them for a couple of years and compare the growth between the two.

Dean, I don't know the answer. What was the difference in growth between the two?

Lol:)

[Mandrew968]

Axel - a thought to consider - and one I have unfortunately witnessed.

Re: Gary Wood and Round Up:

To illustrate - Take a few potted palms and spray half of them as he did. Then grow them for a couple of years and compare the growth between the two.

Dean, I don't know the answer. What was the difference in growth between the two?

Keith, I would guess he is speaking to the lack of beneficial advantages for spraying your potted palms with round up--I mean, how could the sprayed palms do better with an herbicide, than without it??

[Sabal Steve]

Axel - a thought to consider - and one I have unfortunately witnessed.

Re: Gary Wood and Round Up:

To illustrate - Take a few potted palms and spray half of them as he did. Then grow them for a couple of years and compare the growth between the two.

Dean, I don't know the answer. What was the difference in growth between the two?

Keith, I would guess he is speaking to the lack of beneficial advantages for spraying your potted palms with round up--I mean, how could the sprayed palms do better with an herbicide, than without it??

I think that it's safe to assume that Keith was joking.