IYO what is the most cold hardy crown shafted palm?

[Palmdude]

?

[Peter G]

Good question PalmDude.

I'm thinking Hedyscepe or R. Sapida.

[Darold Petty]

Do you mean frost resistance or amenable to cool growing conditions?

Rhopalostylis and Hedyscepe grow (slowly) in cool temperatures but are frost hardy to only 28 F. For resistance to frost exposure I would suggest Dypsis decipiens.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

IMO ...There is no comparison.

I have all three.

Rhopalostylis and Hedyscepe are in some what protected locations in my garden.

Rhopalostylis lost half of its leaves to the cold this winter at 23f-26f.

Hedyscepe in a much more protected location had a single leaf damaged..... but this thing is slower to recover.

Then there is Dypsis decipiens un protected in my front yard.

My Dypsis decipiens had some light burn where the cold rolled down the valleys of my roof and hit the leaf.... but its hardly noticable.

I'd say that once established, d. Decipiens is not only the most cold hardy. Its frost resistance is on par with Queen palms.

Rhopalostylis and Hedyscepe are much less cold hardy... by at least 3 to 5 degrees. And about the same cool hardy ie... takes chilly soil.

IMO

Jeff

[Palmdude]

Thanks guys! I have a nice Decipiens but I'll be one of the lucky ones in Florida if the humidity doesn't croak it might plant it at the top of a steep slope with a bunch of perlite and expanded clay pellets so it doesn't sit in moist soil and get stem rot.

[Tropicdoc]

Expanded clay pellets? Never heard of them.

[Phoenikakias]

I think Palmdude means something like Ceramis for hydro-culture...

[palmsOrl]

In my experience, the most cold hardy crownshaft palm is Acthontophoenix cunninghamiana. Specifically the more cold hardy eco-types, like the one I have. I am aware that there are technically more cold hardy varieties, but as far as species that will thrive and survive long term in Florida, I believe the aforementioned palm is the best choice.

Also, I have mentioned before, that technically the two well known species of hardy Chamaedorea (hardy to zone 8b) are the clear winner. I saw large clumps thriving at the Atlanta Botanical Garden in 2006 and Atlanta is not a zone 8b! I wonder how they look right now?

[stevethegator]

In my experience, the most cold hardy crownshaft palm is Acthontophoenix cunninghamiana. Specifically the more cold hardy eco-types, like the one I have. I am aware that there are technically more cold hardy varieties, but as far as species that will thrive and survive long term in Florida, I believe the aforementioned palm is the best choice.

Also, I have mentioned before, that technically the two well known species of hardy Chamaedorea (hardy to zone 8b) are the clear winner. I saw large clumps thriving at the Atlanta Botanical Garden in 2006 and Atlanta is not a zone 8b! I wonder how they look right now?

I agree about a. Cunninghamiana, at least in the humid southeast. The hardiest types have a chance to survive (with damage in the bad winters) in 8b if well sited. Plus, it would take only minimal protection to get one through 15F if the individual palm is hardy to around 20F, and they grow so fast that if it dies, plant a new one and enjoy until the next bad winter shows up a decade later.

Atlanta certainly isn't zone 8, but the Atlanta Botancal gardens probably is. It's in midtown which has a huge urban heat island due to the skyscrapers, and those C. microspadix clumps are planted right up against the wall of the conservatory under pretty dense canopy.

It got down to anywhere between 5-7F around town this winter, but I doubt those chamaedoreas saw much below 10. My potted radicalis (unprotected on my patio) froze solid and was dead before it even thawed out all the way!

I need to head to the gardens soon and see how all their stuff fared. They have a couple large washies and many palmettos and butia. I also need to drive up to buckhead and see how the grove of fruiting Butia outside the Brazilian steakhouse did as I'm sure none were protected and they are all completely exposed

[Tropicdoc]

Wow, a big vote for a hardy king! I have two kings that I just got. I will grow them in pots for a while. There is no way I will have a large king, but maybe I can get one to say 10 feet or so.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

LOL....

Acthontophoenix cunninghamiana is at the the least hardy palm I grow. It barely survives my garden.

Jeff

[palmsOrl]

In my experience, the most cold hardy crownshaft palm is Acthontophoenix cunninghamiana. Specifically the more cold hardy eco-types, like the one I have. I am aware that there are technically more cold hardy varieties, but as far as species that will thrive and survive long term in Florida, I believe the aforementioned palm is the best choice.

Also, I have mentioned before, that technically the two well known species of hardy Chamaedorea (hardy to zone 8b) are the clear winner. I saw large clumps thriving at the Atlanta Botanical Garden in 2006 and Atlanta is not a zone 8b! I wonder how they look right now?

I agree about a. Cunninghamiana, at least in the humid southeast. The hardiest types have a chance to survive (with damage in the bad winters) in 8b if well sited. Plus, it would take only minimal protection to get one through 15F if the individual palm is hardy to around 20F, and they grow so fast that if it dies, plant a new one and enjoy until the next bad winter shows up a decade later.

Atlanta certainly isn't zone 8, but the Atlanta Botancal gardens probably is. It's in midtown which has a huge urban heat island due to the skyscrapers, and those C. microspadix clumps are planted right up against the wall of the conservatory under pretty dense canopy.

It got down to anywhere between 5-7F around town this winter, but I doubt those chamaedoreas saw much below 10. My potted radicalis (unprotected on my patio) froze solid and was dead before it even thawed out all the way!

I need to head to the gardens soon and see how all their stuff fared. They have a couple large washies and many palmettos and butia. I also need to drive up to buckhead and see how the grove of fruiting Butia outside the Brazilian steakhouse did as I'm sure none were protected and they are all completely exposed

I would bet Metro Atlanta is a solid 8a, with some 8b microclimates. This year, of course, was a lot colder than average but I doubt the average year gets below 10F in the city. What do you think Steve? I recall seeing 10 ft Washingtonia robusta/filabusta used by the city as landscaping on the margins of overpasses near dowtown there in 2006, but I am sure those are gone now.

[Palmdude]

I've been thinking about grabbing a few Cunninghamiana for a while now, might as well give em a go. I like the fast aspect of them too, I thought the same thing, they die plant some more!

[Palmdude]

Expanded clay pellets? Never heard of them.

Konstantinos is correct, they're used for hydroponics and they don't hold water, just gives the roots something to hold onto. I use them in my cycad and orchid mixes. More or less what I'll use to plant the Decipiens for superior drainage

[stevethegator]

In my experience, the most cold hardy crownshaft palm is Acthontophoenix cunninghamiana. Specifically the more cold hardy eco-types, like the one I have. I am aware that there are technically more cold hardy varieties, but as far as species that will thrive and survive long term in Florida, I believe the aforementioned palm is the best choice.

Also, I have mentioned before, that technically the two well known species of hardy Chamaedorea (hardy to zone 8b) are the clear winner. I saw large clumps thriving at the Atlanta Botanical Garden in 2006 and Atlanta is not a zone 8b! I wonder how they look right now?

I agree about a. Cunninghamiana, at least in the humid southeast. The hardiest types have a chance to survive (with damage in the bad winters) in 8b if well sited. Plus, it would take only minimal protection to get one through 15F if the individual palm is hardy to around 20F, and they grow so fast that if it dies, plant a new one and enjoy until the next bad winter shows up a decade later.

Atlanta certainly isn't zone 8, but the Atlanta Botancal gardens probably is. It's in midtown which has a huge urban heat island due to the skyscrapers, and those C. microspadix clumps are planted right up against the wall of the conservatory under pretty dense canopy.

It got down to anywhere between 5-7F around town this winter, but I doubt those chamaedoreas saw much below 10. My potted radicalis (unprotected on my patio) froze solid and was dead before it even thawed out all the way!

I need to head to the gardens soon and see how all their stuff fared. They have a couple large washies and many palmettos and butia. I also need to drive up to buckhead and see how the grove of fruiting Butia outside the Brazilian steakhouse did as I'm sure none were protected and they are all completely exposed

I would bet Metro Atlanta is a solid 8a, with some 8b microclimates. This year, of course, was a lot colder than average but I doubt the average year gets below 10F in the city. What do you think Steve? I recall seeing 10 ft Washingtonia robusta/filabusta used by the city as landscaping on the margins of overpasses near dowtown there in 2006, but I am sure those are gone now.

No washies here other than at the botanical garden!

Id say you're correct about the averages never going below 10F, at least in the city itself. I live a couple miles east of the big buildings and it is colder up here than down there.

I've only lived here for 3 winters, the first winter was warm and had a low around 17, last winter was also pretty mild with another low in the high teens and only light snow flurries a couple times. It seemed that had been the norm since the previous cold even in 2010, when it only got down to 12 or so but had a lot of frozen precip.

This winter it got down to 6 F on my patio, then we had several inches of the "snowpocalypse" and then an ice storm two weeks later. Coldest in the past 20 years but not unprecedented. The all time record low is -8F!

[Palmdude]

-8! Good Gawd y'all!

[Cikas]

Do you mean frost resistance or amenable to cool growing conditions?

Rhopalostylis and Hedyscepe grow (slowly) in cool temperatures but are frost hardy to only 28 F. For resistance to frost exposure I would suggest Dypsis decipiens.

Rhopalostylis is cold hardy to 24F.

[Sabal Steve]

You may have already seen this related thread?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/39571-could-dypsis-decipiens-be-the-only-crownshafted-palm-for-zone-9a/?hl=crownshafted

[Palmdude]

Thanks Steve it always comes down to D. Decipiens. I have a nice one but apparently Florida's humidity is a death sentence. We shall see! It's still in a pot and has done very well so far for years in Florida but I guess the ground is a different story?

Edited March 22, 2014 by Palmdude

[Sabal Steve]

Thanks Steve it always comes down to D. Decipiens. I have a nice one but apparently Florida's humidity is a death sentence. We shall see! It's still in a pot and has done very well so far for years in Florida but I guess the ground is a different story?

But alas, we have a similar struggle here - The Coconut... The clothes at walmart are a better fit than a coco in cali...

[stevethegator]

-8! Good Gawd y'all!

Haha yeah when it gets that cold again Atlanta is going to have way more to worry about than palms

[stevethegator]

Thanks Steve it always comes down to D. Decipiens. I have a nice one but apparently Florida's humidity is a death sentence. We shall see! It's still in a pot and has done very well so far for years in Florida but I guess the ground is a different story?

There are a few specimens of Brahea armata in Florida which supposedly hate humidity so maybe you'll get lucky!

[Palmdude]

Oh thanks for the encouragement Steve

[palmsOrl]

In my experience, the most cold hardy crownshaft palm is Acthontophoenix cunninghamiana. Specifically the more cold hardy eco-types, like the one I have. I am aware that there are technically more cold hardy varieties, but as far as species that will thrive and survive long term in Florida, I believe the aforementioned palm is the best choice.

Also, I have mentioned before, that technically the two well known species of hardy Chamaedorea (hardy to zone 8b) are the clear winner. I saw large clumps thriving at the Atlanta Botanical Garden in 2006 and Atlanta is not a zone 8b! I wonder how they look right now?

I agree about a. Cunninghamiana, at least in the humid southeast. The hardiest types have a chance to survive (with damage in the bad winters) in 8b if well sited. Plus, it would take only minimal protection to get one through 15F if the individual palm is hardy to around 20F, and they grow so fast that if it dies, plant a new one and enjoy until the next bad winter shows up a decade later.

Atlanta certainly isn't zone 8, but the Atlanta Botancal gardens probably is. It's in midtown which has a huge urban heat island due to the skyscrapers, and those C. microspadix clumps are planted right up against the wall of the conservatory under pretty dense canopy.

It got down to anywhere between 5-7F around town this winter, but I doubt those chamaedoreas saw much below 10. My potted radicalis (unprotected on my patio) froze solid and was dead before it even thawed out all the way!

I need to head to the gardens soon and see how all their stuff fared. They have a couple large washies and many palmettos and butia. I also need to drive up to buckhead and see how the grove of fruiting Butia outside the Brazilian steakhouse did as I'm sure none were protected and they are all completely exposed

I would bet Metro Atlanta is a solid 8a, with some 8b microclimates. This year, of course, was a lot colder than average but I doubt the average year gets below 10F in the city. What do you think Steve? I recall seeing 10 ft Washingtonia robusta/filabusta used by the city as landscaping on the margins of overpasses near dowtown there in 2006, but I am sure those are gone now.

No washies here other than at the botanical garden!

Id say you're correct about the averages never going below 10F, at least in the city itself. I live a couple miles east of the big buildings and it is colder up here than down there.

I've only lived here for 3 winters, the first winter was warm and had a low around 17, last winter was also pretty mild with another low in the high teens and only light snow flurries a couple times. It seemed that had been the norm since the previous cold even in 2010, when it only got down to 12 or so but had a lot of frozen precip.

This winter it got down to 6 F on my patio, then we had several inches of the "snowpocalypse" and then an ice storm two weeks later. Coldest in the past 20 years but not unprecedented. The all time record low is -8F!

I figured the ones I saw planted there in 2006 are gone. A large Washingtonia could survive a string of mild winters there. A large Washingtonia filifera could probably survive quite a while between winters such as the past one. Considering -2F has been officially recorded in FL (unofficial readings in FL at least several degrees lower), I would have thought Atlanta would have been to at least -12 to -15F in recorded city history.

[sonoranfans]

I've been thinking about grabbing a few Cunninghamiana for a while now, might as well give em a go. I like the fast aspect of them too, I thought the same thing, they die plant some more!

Rob,

north port looks to be a pretty warm area, at least 9B. There should be plenty of crownshafts you can grow. Walt in the Orlando area has much colder winters than you and he has several cunninghamianas and alexandre. I am north of you by at least an hour and possibly a tad further inland and I grow more than a dozen crownshafted species. Are you preparing for a giant polar vortex in the future or something? By the way, cunninghamiana is a shade lover and is the least attractive of all the archontophoenix, in my opinion. I grow alexandre, myolensis, maxima, and purpurea. You should also be able to grow dypsis leptocheilos, dypsis pembana, and foxtails which are also grown in central florida with good success. There are many possibilities of crownshafted palms for a north port garden it would seem.

[Ken Johnson]

Kentiopsis have real nice crown shaft color.....just sayin.

[sonoranfans]

Kentiopsis have real nice crown shaft color.....just sayin.

yeah I can vouch for that! I like them best of all my crownshafts, and my all my friends think they are the most attractive ringed trunks and crownshafts in my yard. they are also the most cold hardy crownshafts I have based on a small 3 gallon size in the ground that came through with no damage to the growing point in the winter of 2010 when my slightly larger foxy ladies, foxtails, royals etc bit the dust after spear pull. that year, the most cold hardy order for small palms was

kentiopsis O.> tribear hybrid > dypsis pembana >> foxy lady, foxtail, royal, ptychosperma elegans

my archonto Alexandre were well covered with frost cloth....

[palmsOrl]

If I lived in North Port, I would have Royals, Cocos, Veitchia, Ptychosperma, Archontophoenix, etc., knowing that most would get a bit of damage each winter. Heck, I have all of those in the ground here in Orlando. I agree with you Tom, that while Arch. cunn. is beautiful, it is the least beautiful of the Archontophoenix and also by far the most cold hardy. I have all of the Archontophoenix species in my yard, most newly planted. The cunninghamiana has been in the ground for 11 years, is now nearly 25 feet tall and was well less than 50% damaged by 2010.

My Foxy Lady bit the dust from the '09-'10 winter as if it was a Cyrtostachys. Just fried and gone.

On the subject of palm beauty, I would say that in a very general sense, palm beauty decreases with increasing cold hardiness. So there is an inverse relationship between the two. This is certainly debatable. Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, an admirer of scruffy fan palms may disagree with this

Edited March 22, 2014 by palmsOrl

[sonoranfans]

If I lived in North Port, I would have Royals, Cocos, Veitchia, Ptychosperma, Archontophoenix, etc., knowing that most would get a bit of damage each winter. Heck, I have all of those in the ground here in Orlando. I agree with you Tom, that while Arch. cunn. is beautiful, it is the least beautiful of the Archontophoenix and also by far the most cold hardy. I have all of the Archontophoenix species in my yard, most newly planted. The cunninghamiana has been in the ground for 11 years, is now nearly 25 feet tall and was well less than 50% damaged by 2010.

My Foxy Lady bit the dust from the '09-'10 winter as if it was a Cyrtostachys. Just fried and gone.

On the subject of palm beauty, I would say that in a very general sense, palm beauty decreases with increasing cold hardiness. So there is an inverse relationship between the two. This is certainly debatable. Since beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, an admirer of scruffy fan palms may disagree with this

LOL! that is funny WIlliam, "scruffy" fan palms.... Count me in! I am an admirer of my "scruffy" copernicia fallaensis and baileyana and other teriffic fans! If I had to choose between any of my crownshafted palms and either of those.... Id keep my magnificent "scruffy" fan palms! I also would part with most of my crownshafts rather than my borassus aethiopum, brahea clara, or bizzies. But really the crownshafts are part of a inspiring jungle look while my massive fans have a different effect entirely as individuals in size and leaflet coloration. I think a garden without balance in either fans or feathers is less interesting as each creates a different texture. the Hawaiian gardens I have seen are more awesome with coryphas or tahinas(someday big ones!). There is a feather palm that I really want, sataketia liukiuensis. To me, they are so much more beautiful than any cocos or any of my crownshafted palms. I am hoping to catch a ken Johnson trip up the coast this year sometime. I would put that palm right there with my copenicias in beauty in the eye of this beholder... Satakenias are the most beautiful feather palm that can be grown in florida IMO.

[palmsOrl]

I definitely agree with you Tom. The fan palm species you named are absolutely stunning. But none of those are cold hardy fan palms (Brahea clara is though I guess). I didn't mean that all fan palms are scruffy and unattractive. Just that most (not all) hardy palms are scruffy fan palms and that generally the hardy palms are not as beautiful as the more cold tender ones (palmate or pinnate).

[steve99]

Do you mean frost resistance or amenable to cool growing conditions?

Rhopalostylis and Hedyscepe grow (slowly) in cool temperatures but are frost hardy to only 28 F. For resistance to frost exposure I would suggest Dypsis decipiens.

Rhopalostylis is cold hardy to 24F.

+1 Rhopalostylis sapida

[steve99]

Do you mean frost resistance or amenable to cool growing conditions?

Rhopalostylis and Hedyscepe grow (slowly) in cool temperatures but are frost hardy to only 28 F. For resistance to frost exposure I would suggest Dypsis decipiens.

Rhopalostylis is cold hardy to 24F.

+1 Rhopalostylis sapida

[Phoenikakias]

All this talk about frost hardiness is somewhat with out real value if we do not mention also duration of zero and below that temps (in Celsius scale). has any one, who argues for example that Rhopalostylis sapida is hardy down to 24F, ever tested his specimen totally unprotected to a snow storm lasting for two whole days, during which temps never rise above 0 C but easily fall to -2 C? IMO in such case there is absolutely no hardy crownshafted sp!

[palmsOrl]

In the case you mention, I bet only the aforementioned crownshafted Chamaedoreas would survive. A quick drop to 24F, followed by a sunny 60F day is hugely different from one of those days long cold spells where overcast keeps even the days cold (and possibly with snow/ice). An Archontophoenix cunn. and Rhopalostylis could in many cases survive the former but unlikely the latter.

[Phoenikakias]

In the case you mention, I bet only the aforementioned crownshafted Chamaedoreas would survive. A quick drop to 24F, followed by a sunny 60F day is hugely different from one of those days long cold spells where overcast keeps even the days cold (and possibly with snow/ice). An Archontophoenix cunn. and Rhopalostylis could in many cases survive the former but unlikely the latter.

This exactly happened in real life.

[Palmdude]

Thanks for all the great info folks

No cocos in North Port. 2010 killed them all. Foxtails and adonidias yes but in favorable micro climates. My foxtails and Adonidias croaked in 2010, which was like a polar vortex, it went down to 19 degrees and the puddles were frozen in the street

Coldest winter in about 30 years so that is still fresh on my mind. I'm growing Adonidias and Foxtsils by seed now among other things

I do have a few Kentiopsis O's and they survived 2010 in Punta Gorda which was probably 10 degrees warmer than North Port in 2010, they sailed through almost unscathed. I do also have a lot more canopy that I was lacking in 2010 and plated a viburnum hedge along the northern property line to block the north wind so I'm in a better position now but still worry about another 2010, I really hope it's st least another 30 years before we see that again!

Edited March 24, 2014 by Palmdude

[Palmdude]

Sonorafans if you make it down this way I have a small Satakentia I might not have room for hint hint!

I just ripped out a large clump of umbrella palms (not a palm) and planted a seven footer outside my front window some of the fronds got a bit beat up hanging out the back of my truck driving across the state but other than that it looks great! I hope it grows as fast as they did for the gentleman I got it from, he had very fast growth in two years

Edited March 24, 2014 by Palmdude

[palm tree man]

I would vote for Dypsis Decipiens overall. A. Cunninghamia is readily available however and fast growing, so you could get a nice size palm before another twenty year bout with bad weather hits. I have read in one thread that Kentiopsis Olivaformis outperformed A. Cunninghamia in one members garden during a cold event. I might need to search for the thread.

[palm tree man]

Everyone needs a good mixture of species. There are so many great fan palms that look so tropical that they really just add to and sometimes help protect feather leafed species. Goodnight everyone.

[sarasota alex]

Rob, the overnight winter lows in North Port, are comparable or at times slightly higher to those in the Old Myakka area of Sarasota. Both Faith Bishock and Catherine Presley (Creekside) grow dozens of crownshafted species with great success. The advantage that North Port has over those areas or anywhere in Sarasota is that it seems to have significantly higher winter highs (by a few degrees when the highs are below 70). This past winter temps never dipped below 36 in my yard but we had a few multi-day sub-68 stretches and a couple of days with highs below 60. As a result my coconut lost half of it's folliage which may not have happened in North Port this year.

On the other hand the summer night temps are higher in North Port, which would make it even more difficult to grow a Dypsis decipiens than it would in Sarasota.