Is Florida Royal Palm cold-hardier than Cuban Royal Palm?

[Sandy Loam]

I understand that Roystonea Regia and Roystonea Elata are the same species of palm, and that the Florida Royal Palm is supposed to be the same genetically as the Cuban Royal Palm. However, I am also told that the royal palms sold in most Florida nurseries are actually the Cuban royal palm, even though they may be marked as "Florida Royal Palm" by the nursery. I cannot verify this fact, but this is what I have been told.

If indeed the royal palms sold in nurseries are Cuban royal palms, perhaps the zone 9B hardiness associated with those palms is inaccurate with respect to Florida-native royals since they are not commonly in cultivation. Does anyone know if seed from the wild royals in the Fackahatchee Strand State Park or in Collier-Seminole State Park (southern Collier County) has ever been germinated for a cold-hardiness comparison with Cuban Royal Palms? Just as there can be variation within a single species (e.g. syagrus romanzoffiana santa catarina vs. normal syagrus romanzoffiana), I would be interested to know if the same variation exists within roystonea regia.

Here is a photo of the more slender Florida variety of Roystonia Regia in its natural habitat at Fackahatchee Strand State Park: http://www.johnmoranphoto.com/flora_014.html

Here are other Florida royal palms growing in their natural habitat in nearby Collier-Seminole State Park, Florida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roystonea_regia.jpg

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[tjwalters]

As far as I know (Kew), R. elata is a synonym for R. regia.

Oh, sorry. Apparently I'm having a reading comprehension issue this evening. Maybe it's the snow.

[_Keith]

Either way growing in Gainesville is a death sentence, as it is where I live as well.

[Sandy Loam]

I wasn't really thinking about planting one in Gainesville because I know that it won't work so far north. I was more interested in knowing if there is any data out there about the differences between the Florida royal and Cuban royal, despite the fact that they are classified as the same species.

[stevethegator]

I understand that Roystonea Regia and Roystonea Elata are the same species of palm, and that the Florida Royal Palm is supposed to be the same genetically as the Cuban Royal Palm. However, I am also told that the royal palms sold in most Florida nurseries are actually the Cuban royal palm, even though they may be marked as "Florida Royal Palm" by the nursery. I cannot verify this fact, but this is what I have been told.

If indeed the royal palms sold in nurseries are Cuban royal palms, perhaps the zone 9B hardiness associated with those palms is inaccurate with respect to Florida-native royals since they are not commonly in cultivation. Does anyone know if seed from the wild royals in the Fackahatchee Strand State Park or in Collier-Seminole State Park (southern Collier County) has ever been germinated for a cold-hardiness comparison with Cuban Royal Palms? Just as there can be variation within a single species (e.g. syagrus romanzoffiana santa catarina vs. normal syagrus romanzoffiana), I would be interested to know if the same variation exists within roystonea regia.

Here is a photo of the more slender Florida variety of Roystonia Regia in its natural habitat at Fackahatchee Strand State Park: http://www.johnmoranphoto.com/flora_014.html

Here are other Florida royal palms growing in their natural habitat in nearby Collier-Seminole State Park, Florida: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Roystonea_regia.jpg

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

I would think var. elata (the Florida variety) is actually less cold-hardy than the Cuban variety. Most Florida royals grow in very sheltered microclimates in cypress swamps or deep hammocks, surrounded by water and protected completely from wind by the surrounding vegetation. Whereas the Cuban royals often grow in monotypic stands in exposed locations on mountainsides, even at elevation.

Cuban royals are also much "beefier," and potentially their larger volume adds to their hardiness (takes longer for the plant tissue to cool to damaging temps, they hold way more water, etc.).

I found this thread that clearly shows the palms in habitat were damaged in the 2010 winter:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/23771-fakahatchee-strand-in-the-everglades/

I never saw any cultivated specimens damaged that year in South Florida, despite freezing temps that killed coconuts and damaged adonidia, hyophorbe, etc.

However, Bartram reported royals growing in north central Florida which must have seen some cold even if the climate was milder back then. Overall I'm not sure how much the different provenances matter in comparison to individual genetics/variation. I'm not even sure that the Cuban/Florida populations are different at all. I have hiked through fakahatchee a few times and while you do see the thinner "Florida" types, you also see large "Cuban" looking types as well.

[stevethegator]

Here are some pictures to illustrate what im talking about. This first set are general photos I found on google images.

Royals in in the Fakahatchee strand when they put the logging road in, sometime in the early 1900s.

Second picture is a more modern aerial view of the 'strand, all of those white sticks are royal trunks.

Third picture is Roystonea regia on a mountain side in Cuba, again the white sticks are all the palm trunks

[palmsOrl]

Interesting Steve. I was just going to mention that I read it suggested in a book years ago that "Roystonea elata" is more cold sensitive than Roystonea regia. I thought this to be counter-intuitive. But you may have a point about the differing habitats. Still, does it get colder where Cuban royals grow in habitat in Cuba than in Florida? Despite the favorable microclimates, I bet the ones in FL have a couple nights of 35-40F yearly (lower in years with severe cold waves). A quick drop to 35-40F (sans frost) would not damage a mature royal of any species that I'm aware of. Does it get this cold with regularity in Cuban habitat? The difference in trunk thickness may be related to the much greater water availability to specimens in the Everglades vs. Cuba.

It is fascinating to see palms cold damaged in habitat on the linked thread. I missed that one years ago. Bet those palms saw upper 20s in that freeze, easily, on par with temps in downtown Orlando that time. Truthfully, I imagine if Cuban royals had been planted in the vicinity the damage would be similar, but that's just speculation. Are there any legitimate sources of FL native royal seed? I would be happy to do a side-by-side comparison with my Cuban and Puerto Rican royals.

[stevethegator]

Here are some pictures from one of my hikes in Fakahatchee, in December 2011. Not the best shots but the inside of the strand is surprisingly hard to photograph

My buddy walking underneath some tall Florida royals along an old tram route, he's around 6' tall for scale (the Sabal that looks so huge is in the foreground)

Smaller royals along the road/parking area, these looked more "Cuban"

This is what these palms grow in and around, a rather deep slough that covers100 square miles or so. Epiphytes are Guzmania monostachia, Asplenium fern, and various orchid species. Trees are pond apple and pop ash (Annona glabra and Fraxinus caroliniana).

To illustrate how far into the swamp we were, here's a picture of one of the extremely rare ghost orchids we came across (not in flower).

[palmsOrl]

The editor would not allow me to make changes, but I wanted to add this in reference to Cuban royals not being damaged in S. FL after the 2009-2010 winter:

The rural regions of the glades can get a lot colder than urban areas of S. FL (where most Cuban royals would be observed) which are basically all near the coast. It gets colder in inland areas down there (Collier, Lee, Monroe) on the coldest nights than it does in urban areas such as Tampa and Orlando nowadays. I am sure protected wet forest areas of the glades such as the Fakahatchee freeze less often than exposed, drier sites, but more frequently than places like Miami, Ft. Lauderdale and Naples.

[stevethegator]

Interesting Steve. I was just going to mention that I read it suggested in a book years ago that "Roystonea elata" is more cold sensitive than Roystonea regia. I thought this to be counter-intuitive. But you may have a point about the differing habitats. Still, does it get colder where Cuban royals grow in habitat in Cuba than in Florida? Despite the favorable microclimates, I bet the ones in FL have a couple nights of 35-40F yearly (lower in years with severe cold waves). A quick drop to 35-40F (sans frost) would not damage a mature royal of any species that I'm aware of. Does it get this cold with regularity in Cuban habitat? The difference in trunk thickness may be related to the much greater water availability to specimens in the Everglades vs. Cuba.

It is fascinating to see palms cold damaged in habitat on the linked thread. I missed that one years ago. Bet those palms saw upper 20s in that freeze, easily, on par with temps in downtown Orlando that time. Truthfully, I imagine if Cuban royals had been planted in the vicinity the damage would be similar, but that's just speculation. Are there any legitimate sources of FL native royal seed? I would be happy to do a side-by-side comparison with my Cuban and Puerto Rican royals.

Not sure how cold it gets in Cuba, but I know it can get into the mid 30s towards the west of the island and below freezing on the highest peaks in the Sierra Maestra on the eastern tip of the island at over 6000'. I'm also not sure to what altitue Roystonea grows in Cuba, if they grow at high elevation they may have seen frost at one point in time.

You're right, the Fakahatchee royals have to have seen upper 20s in 2010, it gets cold out there in east Collier. But maybe not since there is so much fairly deep water around there. I was knee deep during most of my hike throug the actual slough, and there were royals literally growing out of the water. Most were on drier land. Perhaps Cubans planted right next to the ones that were damaged would have shared the same fate. But if the Florida royals in Fakahatchee didn't see upper 20s because of the microclimate and were still that badly damaged...

I've always wondered about getting a pure batch of "Florida" seed. I don't know anyone who sells it. I'd be game to collect some if anyone knows how to get a permit. Problem is, alot of those palms are 50-100+ feet tall!

Edited February 13, 2014 by stevethegator

[palmsOrl]

Great pictures Steve, thanks for sharing. That is a truly unique habitat.

[stevethegator]

Looking more closely I think the group of palms in my second photo, second photo post is the same grouping as of the pictures in the other thread from 2010! (the one with the damage picutres)

[Eric in Orlando]

We have some FL royals grown from wild collected seed. They don't show any less or more hardiness than R. regia. In fact several Roystonea we are growing have had the same hardiness; borinquena, "eleata", regia, princeps and violacea. R. oleracea is more tender.

[stevethegator]

Good to know, thanks!

[Sandy Loam]

I have been to the Florida Royal Palm habitats in both the Fakahatchee Strand and Collier-Seminole State Park. The royals in Collier-Seminole look more like Cuban royals than the ones in Fakahatchee Strand, although that could have been my own skewed perception. It may be due to the fact that the Fakahatchee Strand royals are growing up to their knees in water where as the ones in Collier-Seminile where growing on dry land in a forest ------ at least the royals along the hiking trail in the forest were certainly not underwater. I can't speak for the rest of the park.

For those wishing to visit a Florida royal palm natural habitat, Collier-Seminole State Park is much more accessible than Fakahatchee Strand State Park, although there are a lot mosquitoes there, so go in January or February. Even in December when I was there one year, it was still hot and with plenty of mosquitoes. You will see little royal seedlings popping up everywhere in the forest among teenage royals and enormous royals with thick trunks as well.

The problem with accessing the Fakahatchee Strand is that the area where the royals begin to appear (at "royal palm hammock") is a 45-minute drive beyond the park entrance. It is a fairly short distance but you can only drive extremely slowly along the bumpy dirty road, unless you own an all-terrain vehicle. There were no other cars or people when I was there, but I would have had to drive into the water if another vehicle had needed to pass me. It's a narrow, one-land bumpy dirt road with water on either side. The royal palm hammock area is nice, but to get the full experience you have to hike up to your hips in water in the slough. Normally this is done in a hiking group where everyone has a long stick in front of them which they poke down in the water in front of them to gauge the terrain and to scare away any venomous snakes or alligators which might be lurking there. The experience is not for everyone.

[Sandy Loam]

Anyway, I got sidetracked, but what I was trying to say was that the native royal palms in the forest Collier-Seminole State Park looked much more like Cuban royals than the royals in habitat at Fakahatchee Strand State Park. The latter had a distinctly different look. I don't know whether that has to do with genetics or environmental circumstances, but they must be genetically similar because both parks are so close that they almost flow together back-to-back.

[stevethegator]

In the Ag. Reserves just west of the Palm Beach County metro areas along the eastern end of the Everglades you see royals popping up in every natural area, especially the cypress hammocks, windbreaks, etc. between the fields. These are likely just volunteers from the cultivated "Cuban" ones growing in nearby neighborhoods, but a lot of them have that Fakahatchee slender look you're talking about.

I think it may just be environment and individual genetics that causes the differences between the two, but I must say the ones growing in the swamp, even in Palm Beach County have a different look to them.

I also remember reading about when the Everglades royals were first discovered by the commercial developers on the Southeast coast. The developers brought a large number of palms out from the swamps into the cities, a famous example being at a horse track down near Miami. They would even use blimps to locate accessible stands of royals for digging.

Simultaneously, people like Edison began importing a bunch of royals from Cuba, as this was cheaper even back then. He had them planted along the streets in Ft. Myers. The early nurserymen then just used the seeds from these transplanted specimens to grow more, instead of going into the swamps or down to Cuba to collect seed.

Long story short, it's likely that what has been sold as "Cuban" royals in South Florida have some native Florida royal blood and vice versa. So, if the physical differences between the two are actually related to the populations being distinct variants from each other, this could explain why some of the cultivated/naturalized specimens I've seen share characteristics of both.

Or it could just be that we're crazy and there's no difference between the two at all! Haha

[Eric in Orlando]

I saw quite a few Royals naturalizing along the Loxahatchee River in Jonathan Dickinson State Park west of Jupiter. They were growing in the parts of the river were brackish, where you started seeing Mangroves mixed with Taxodium.

[Eric in Orlando]

And at the same time Royals were being dug out of the swamps for landscape use, wild Pseudophoenix sargentii were being dug and sold as "mini" or "dwarf" Royal PAlms.

[DoomsDave]

Collier state park has a great Royal Palm Hammock, plenty of parking, walk on in. Someone in a wheelchair should be able to make it in with a little push from a helper.

Didn't see any venomous snakes or gators though there were a few poison-tongued gossipy people there . . . .

The palms were magnificent. Get thee there if you can!

[stevethegator]

And at the same time Royals were being dug out of the swamps for landscape use, wild Pseudophoenix sargentii were being dug and sold as "mini" or "dwarf" Royal PAlms.

That's horrible. I wonder how widespread both species would be now if they hadn't faced collection pressure. What other islands did Pseudophoenix grow on other than Elliott Key?

Nice shots of the Loxahatchee river, it's crazy to see Roystonea literally growing out of the water like that. I've only canoed the western end of the river, from Riverbend Park to Tapper Nelson's. Its a beautiful place with lots of tall palms, bromeliads, and orchids.

That reminds me, there is a grove of royals in the woods near the canoe launch at Riverbend Park that look like the "Florida" type, I wonder if someone planted a few native ones there a long time ago. This location is west of the turnpike and in an area that saw lots of frost burn to many things in 2010, and is about as far north as I've ever seen Roystonea naturalize

[Moose]

We have some FL royals grown from wild collected seed. They don't show any less or more hardiness than R. regia. In fact several Roystonea we are growing have had the same hardiness; borinquena, "eleata", regia, princeps and violacea. R. oleracea is more tender.

Eric - I too have three "Florida" royals in my garden. I had to have the 'elata' because the regia were every where. Was miffed when Dr. Scott Zona reclassified 'elata' as regia. I approached him and he apologized but said the DNA was the same. We discussed why the "true elata" seemed to have a less robust trunk. Royals love water but they need their nutrients to be big fatties. Over time my royals developed big fat trunks due to the loving they got.

As far as the cold hardiness question, that would be difficult to determine in my opinion. My personal observations regarding the Fakahatchee Strand Royals is the are exposed to some very frigid weather by South Florida standards. I had a hunting camp about 9 miles north west of the Fakahatchee Strand for about 5 years. Many times when is was 45F in Miami, we had frost. I did not keep a log of temperature comparisons, but I may recall that my hunting camp was usually 10 degrees cooler then the temps reported at MIA. Conversely, in August and Sept. - the temps out in the Fakahatchee Strand area always seemed 10 degrees warmer then those reported at MIA. 100F with high humidity was not uncommon.

[Zeeth]

There is a group of royals in a park on Snead Island off Palmetto called Emerson point that were planted in 1910, so I wonder if that means they would have been of Florida or Cuban origin? They look like the Cuban type to my eyes, but for the last few years they've started to naturalize all throughout the forest in the area. The largest naturalized ones now have about 6-8 feet of trunk. They seem to be spread by birds, as a lot of them grow in groupings, which is what you would expect with birds eating seeds and pooping them out in one spot. I always wonder why it is that the parent palms have been there over 100 years but it's only in the last 10 or so that they've started spreading to the nearby forest.

One thing to note though. The 2010/2011 winters ended up killing about half of the original grouping. The rest are now doing fine but it shows how bad that winter really was. Interestingly though, none of the younger ones in the surrounding forest seemed to take much damage, if any.

[Eric in Orlando]

These were growing somewhere between the boat tour launch and Trapper John's. We took the boat tour to Trapper's and saw these along the way. There was also some big clumps of "wild Pandanus. Trapper John planted them to make the river look exotic.

[Eric in Orlando]

We have some FL royals grown from wild collected seed. They don't show any less or more hardiness than R. regia. In fact several Roystonea we are growing have had the same hardiness; borinquena, "eleata", regia, princeps and violacea. R. oleracea is more tender.

Eric - I too have three "Florida" royals in my garden. I had to have the 'elata' because the regia were every where. Was miffed when Dr. Scott Zona reclassified 'elata' as regia. I approached him and he apologized but said the DNA was the same. We discussed why the "true elata" seemed to have a less robust trunk. Royals love water but they need their nutrients to be big fatties. Over time my royals developed big fat trunks due to the loving they got.

As far as the cold hardiness question, that would be difficult to determine in my opinion. My personal observations regarding the Fakahatchee Strand Royals is the are exposed to some very frigid weather by South Florida standards. I had a hunting camp about 9 miles north west of the Fakahatchee Strand for about 5 years. Many times when is was 45F in Miami, we had frost. I did not keep a log of temperature comparisons, but I may recall that my hunting camp was usually 10 degrees cooler then the temps reported at MIA. Conversely, in August and Sept. - the temps out in the Fakahatchee Strand area always seemed 10 degrees warmer then those reported at MIA. 100F with high humidity was not uncommon.

We got the wild origin Florida Royals from Montgomery. We have several planted at the edge of the lake. They are growing in black wet muck. In summer they are often in standing water. These are beginning to develop very fat robust trunks, more so than others planted in the Garden.

[Eric in Orlando]

There is a group of royals in a park on Snead Island off Palmetto called Emerson point that were planted in 1910, so I wonder if that means they would have been of Florida or Cuban origin? They look like the Cuban type to my eyes, but for the last few years they've started to naturalize all throughout the forest in the area. The largest naturalized ones now have about 6-8 feet of trunk. They seem to be spread by birds, as a lot of them grow in groupings, which is what you would expect with birds eating seeds and pooping them out in one spot. I always wonder why it is that the parent palms have been there over 100 years but it's only in the last 10 or so that they've started spreading to the nearby forest.

One thing to note though. The 2010/2011 winters ended up killing about half of the original grouping. The rest are now doing fine but it shows how bad that winter really was. Interestingly though, none of the younger ones in the surrounding forest seemed to take much damage, if any.

Wow, they survived the 80s freezes but were killed in 2009-10 !

[Zeeth]

There is a group of royals in a park on Snead Island off Palmetto called Emerson point that were planted in 1910, so I wonder if that means they would have been of Florida or Cuban origin? They look like the Cuban type to my eyes, but for the last few years they've started to naturalize all throughout the forest in the area. The largest naturalized ones now have about 6-8 feet of trunk. They seem to be spread by birds, as a lot of them grow in groupings, which is what you would expect with birds eating seeds and pooping them out in one spot. I always wonder why it is that the parent palms have been there over 100 years but it's only in the last 10 or so that they've started spreading to the nearby forest.

One thing to note though. The 2010/2011 winters ended up killing about half of the original grouping. The rest are now doing fine but it shows how bad that winter really was. Interestingly though, none of the younger ones in the surrounding forest seemed to take much damage, if any.

Wow, they survived the 80s freezes but were killed in 2009-10 !

I think age was a big factor also. I don't know what the ultimate age of royals are, but I would think that after 100 years they won't be as quick to grow back leaves or as good at bringing nutrients up the trunk to replenish a lost crown.

[Moose]

We have some FL royals grown from wild collected seed. They don't show any less or more hardiness than R. regia. In fact several Roystonea we are growing have had the same hardiness; borinquena, "eleata", regia, princeps and violacea. R. oleracea is more tender.

Eric - I too have three "Florida" royals in my garden. I had to have the 'elata' because the regia were every where. Was miffed when Dr. Scott Zona reclassified 'elata' as regia. I approached him and he apologized but said the DNA was the same. We discussed why the "true elata" seemed to have a less robust trunk. Royals love water but they need their nutrients to be big fatties. Over time my royals developed big fat trunks due to the loving they got.

As far as the cold hardiness question, that would be difficult to determine in my opinion. My personal observations regarding the Fakahatchee Strand Royals is the are exposed to some very frigid weather by South Florida standards. I had a hunting camp about 9 miles north west of the Fakahatchee Strand for about 5 years. Many times when is was 45F in Miami, we had frost. I did not keep a log of temperature comparisons, but I may recall that my hunting camp was usually 10 degrees cooler then the temps reported at MIA. Conversely, in August and Sept. - the temps out in the Fakahatchee Strand area always seemed 10 degrees warmer then those reported at MIA. 100F with high humidity was not uncommon.

We got the wild origin Florida Royals from Montgomery. We have several planted at the edge of the lake. They are growing in black wet muck. In summer they are often in standing water. These are beginning to develop very fat robust trunks, more so than others planted in the Garden.

Ah, yah - mine came from Montgomery too. That's my story and I'm sticking too it.

[stevethegator]

There is a group of royals in a park on Snead Island off Palmetto called Emerson point that were planted in 1910, so I wonder if that means they would have been of Florida or Cuban origin? They look like the Cuban type to my eyes, but for the last few years they've started to naturalize all throughout the forest in the area. The largest naturalized ones now have about 6-8 feet of trunk. They seem to be spread by birds, as a lot of them grow in groupings, which is what you would expect with birds eating seeds and pooping them out in one spot. I always wonder why it is that the parent palms have been there over 100 years but it's only in the last 10 or so that they've started spreading to the nearby forest.

One thing to note though. The 2010/2011 winters ended up killing about half of the original grouping. The rest are now doing fine but it shows how bad that winter really was. Interestingly though, none of the younger ones in the surrounding forest seemed to take much damage, if any.

Wow, they survived the 80s freezes but were killed in 2009-10 !

I think age was a big factor also. I don't know what the ultimate age of royals are, but I would think that after 100 years they won't be as quick to grow back leaves or as good at bringing nutrients up the trunk to replenish a lost crown.

I know the royals you are talking about. My grandparents used to live right across the bridge in Tierra Verde, and I've been there twice, once when I was a young kid. I specifically remembered the palms and had my grandpa take me back in fall 2010. Most of the big royals along that avenue were being killed by woodpeckers, there were several active woodpecker holes all over them. Maybe this is what killed the rest? I also saw the naturalized royal seedlings you mentioned, so I take it back, that is the farthest north I've seen royals naturalizing!

Interestingly, the largest gumbo limbo I've ever seen is around there somewhere too, it's the size of a huge old live oak with similar spreading branches

Edited February 13, 2014 by stevethegator

[Zeeth]

There is a group of royals in a park on Snead Island off Palmetto called Emerson point that were planted in 1910, so I wonder if that means they would have been of Florida or Cuban origin? They look like the Cuban type to my eyes, but for the last few years they've started to naturalize all throughout the forest in the area. The largest naturalized ones now have about 6-8 feet of trunk. They seem to be spread by birds, as a lot of them grow in groupings, which is what you would expect with birds eating seeds and pooping them out in one spot. I always wonder why it is that the parent palms have been there over 100 years but it's only in the last 10 or so that they've started spreading to the nearby forest.

One thing to note though. The 2010/2011 winters ended up killing about half of the original grouping. The rest are now doing fine but it shows how bad that winter really was. Interestingly though, none of the younger ones in the surrounding forest seemed to take much damage, if any.

Wow, they survived the 80s freezes but were killed in 2009-10 !

I think age was a big factor also. I don't know what the ultimate age of royals are, but I would think that after 100 years they won't be as quick to grow back leaves or as good at bringing nutrients up the trunk to replenish a lost crown.

I know the royals you are talking about. My grandparents used to live right across the bridge in Tierra Verde, and I've been there twice, once when I was a young kid. I specifically remembered the palms and had my grandpa take me back in fall 2010. Most of the big royals along that avenue were being killed by woodpeckers, there were several active woodpecker holes all over them.maybe this is what killed them? I also saw all the naturalized royal seedling you mentioned, so I take it back, that is the farthest north I've seen royals naturalizing!

Interestingly, the largest gumbo limbo I've ever seen is around there somewhere too, it's the size of a huge old live oak with similar spreading branches

Well I saw the damage that the winters did to the palms and them dying right afterwards, so maybe the ones that died couldn't recover from the cold because of the woodpecker damage. There still are I think 4 big ones left though. There are at least 20 that I've counted naturalizing. I've seen them as small as strap leaf seedlings to the ones with 6-8 feet of trunk. There are probably quite a bit more than 20 though, because all the ones I have seen are next to the trails.

I know the gumbo limbo you're talking about. It's at the Desoto national memorial right across the Manatee river in Bradenton. It's actually a state champion in it's spread.

[Eric in Orlando]

I will check these out next time I am over there.

[palm tree man]

I have heard that they are all similar in cold hardiness but it would be interesting to find out which ones could consecutively survive in zone 9a/9b and if given a chance recover from defoliation or a bad cold event. Though this sounds very odd, one source stated that Roystonea borinquena was slightly more hardy. I have never grown it; it was just in my notes that I took on the species. To be honest, I have also heard the exact opposite though. They are probably all about equal that being said.

[Exosphere]

Actually there has been some luck with people planting Florida Royal Palms as far north as Jacksonville. 

So Gainesville, Florida isn’t a death sentence for them. Unless of course you’re talking about germination or caring for juvenile palms which aren’t fully developed to tolerate the cold snaps from the Arctic Blast, you should be able to plant larger specimens in the Gainesville area no problem.

Also, sorry for random reply after like 8 years. Just felt that needed to be said. LOL

[Blueman]

Trunk thickness isn't a reliable to different Fl royals from Cubans, as soil type & water availability throughout the year play a part.  

Along the western edge of the Fakahatchee I saw some royals which a different crownshaft.  Instead of the smooth tapering of cultivated royals where the crownshaft meets the grey wood, these had a swollen collar at the base of the crownshaft, and the crownshaft itself was more straight up and down, with little taper.  Does this have anything to do with FL vs Cuban royals?  

[sonoranfans]

16 minutes ago, Blueman said:

Trunk thickness isn't a reliable to different Fl royals from Cubans, as soil type & water availability throughout the year play a part.  

Along the western edge of the Fakahatchee I saw some royals which a different crownshaft.  Instead of the smooth tapering of cultivated royals where the crownshaft meets the grey wood, these had a swollen collar at the base of the crownshaft, and the crownshaft itself was more straight up and down, with little taper.  Does this have anything to do with FL vs Cuban royals?  

I dont know if anyone has shown there is a difference.  The point about trunk thickness and water/soil sure lines up with my two royals, same source.  I have one coke bottle shaped in sandy soil and the one next to the hose bib in mostly clay, it is fat all the way up.  Same source palms purchased and planted at the same time, one is coke bottle shaped with a fat upper trunk but 30% thinner lower trunk in the classic coke bottle shape.   I think the coke bottle shape is possibly entirely due to seasonal water/high draining soil while those that always get as much water as they want are not coke bottle shaped but cylinder shaped.   Is there a genetic difference?  I'll believe that with either a detailed genetic analysis or possibly a highly credible taxonomist opinion.  People lock on to morphological differences but there is a certain amount of morphological plasticity where individual species palms adapt to varying conditions.  The coke bottle bump looks to my eye like water being pushed up the trunk, the plant must do this or die.  Then seasonal rains and hot/cool weather can determine growth and water availability.  In a pinch of water supply, the palm will thin the trunk down low to push water up to the crown when it isnt getting a lot of water from the roots.  I know the summer rains do more for my yard than all the watering I can do and it happens when its warm but not in winter or spring.  So my coke bottle shaped one will see less water and drain fast in the dry season while my straight trunked one sits near a wet hose bib in soil that is about half clay.  

[OC2Texaspalmlvr]

12 hours ago, Exosphere said:

Also, sorry for random reply after like 8 years. Just felt that needed to be said. LOL

Welcome to PT and thanks for the insight 

T J