what if you listened to Dr. D and dug your holes 10 feet deep ?......

[trioderob]

one time I was at Dr. D's garden and he talked to me about digging a hole 10 foot deep before planting a palm.

now this statement was related to California soil I assume.

some of you guys are friends with him and may have gone into this subject in more detail

lets extrapolate

1) did he do that himself in the garden ?

2) has anyone tried this at great expense ( digging costs, machinery rental etc....)

3) what was the amended back-fill ?

for those who don't know what the heck i talk about here its the idea that the soil in southern cal is crap.

if you dig a HUGE hole and back-fill it with great soil - the palm will thrive and grow like a rocket.

the roots don't have to break thru hard pan, the soil has worms and nutrients - it retains moisture......

Edited January 23, 2014 by trioderob

[richnorm]

How many palms have roots that deep?

[DoomsDave]

I assume you mean Dr. Darian?

10 feet is way excessive, but Dr. D (if that's who you mean) didn't do anything half-way . . .

I only dug down about 2-3 feet, and I didn't remove and replace; doing that is folly in many cases. I only added a lot of organics, which looked like a lot till they rotted down to 1/20 their original bulk. But they improved the soil, as did the original digging to add them.

Some of us have brought in large amounts of extra soil, and I'll let them talk about that if they choose.

Not all California soil is crap by any means. I got lucky, at my place, all things considered.

[trioderob]

now if the palms roots have an option to try to go sideways it hardpan and rocks

or

they can travel down into 10 foot of perfect rich organic loose soil

what do they do ?

what would you do ?

[Mandrew968]

_{Triode, 10 feet deep, but how wide are we digging? And for the notion that Cali soil is crap--why exactly? Is it a ph issue or is it a lack of drainage? I find it hard to imagine all of SoCal has bad soil--not all of South Florida has poor soil.}

[Kim]

I once saw a couple of holes he had prepared for some marginal palms. They were not more than 4 feet deep, if that, and he had installed heating cables at the bottom.

Only Dr. D. could answer #1 and #3.

Mardy is known for lots of experimentation and sometimes just a bit of over-emphasis or magnification in statements.

[Xerarch]

I have a lot of experience with commercial landscape management and digging a hole too deep can lead to some long term problems. The main problem is that once you loosen up all that soil it will settle with time, so you plant that palm (or any other tree) at ground level and it looks great. After a few years the soil will settle and your whole tree is now sitting below grade. Or, even worse, the soil settles unevenly and now the tree will be crooked, I have seen this happen many times. Most professionals will recommend that that you don't dig the hole any deeper than the root ball. Roots grow a lot wider than they do deep anyway, dig a wide hole, not a deep hole.

[sonoranfans]

one time I was at Dr. D's garden and he talked to me about digging a hole 10 foot deep before planting a palm.

now this statement was related to California soil I assume.

some of you guys are friends with him and may have gone into this subject in more detail

lets extrapolate

1) did he do that himself in the garden ?

2) has anyone tried this at great expense ( digging costs, machinery rental etc....)

3) what was the amended back-fill ?

for those who don't know what the heck i talk about here its the idea that the soil in southern cal is crap.

if you dig a HUGE hole and back-fill it with great soil - the palm will thrive and grow like a rocket.

the roots don't have to break thru hard pan, the soil has worms and nutrients - it retains moisture......

LOL I will not dispute Marty Darian when it comes to growing palms.... LMAO! He is apparently digging deep to allow for better drainage and to a lesser extent free room for root growth. I dig deep holes and assure drainage myself and have for years. Hearing that Marty Darian uses this method only reinforces my belief in it. Nah my sandy soil doesn't need 10' depth, it would cave in anyway. But good drainage and a big root system seems like a great approach.

[trioderob]

I once saw a couple of holes he had prepared for some marginal palms. They were not more than 4 feet deep, if that, and he had installed heating cables at the bottom.

Only Dr. D. could answer #1 and #3.

Mardy is known for lots of experimentation and sometimes just a bit of over-emphasis or magnification in statements.

he may have magnified the statement..................

[Funkthulhu]

I always thought the rule of thumb was twice as deep as the root ball and 3 to 5 times as wide.

Depending on the size of the tree and a big root ball, that could possibly be 10 feet deep or more!

[DoomsDave]

Ah, Kim, such an elegant understatement!

[LJG]

I have talked to Doc hundreds of times and never once has he said dig holes 10 feet deep to me. Not once. Pretty sure you are taking something he said out of context.

[LJG]

_{Triode, 10 feet deep, but how wide are we digging? And for the notion that Cali soil is crap--why exactly? Is it a ph issue or is it a lack of drainage? I find it hard to imagine all of SoCal has bad soil--not all of South Florida has poor soil.}

Docs lot sits on the top of a hill basically. Hardly any soil when he started. When he talks about 10 feet he is referring to his yard where it was solid granite mostly and he blasted holes that big to create planting areas. He started this some 40 years ago. One story he tells before tight blasting restrictions is he blew a tire all the way into the old Vista mayors house back in the day. They used tires over blast sites back then I guess.

[Gtlevine]

Most of his stuff is pot planted. Doc exagerates everything. I dig holes just big enough to jam in the root ball, no amending or anything else.

[trioderob]

not only did he tell me this I also read it on this forum where someone else quoted him too - same story.

dang - who was it ???

anyway - what would happen if you tried it - much faster growth or no difference at all ?????????

[Palmdude]

10'! That seems like overkill! Make sense though if he was creating planting areas in granite though but then again I'm like Shultz I know nothing! NOTHING!

[_Keith]

I remember a few years back, Kris in India putting some planting holes pic on here where he was going that deep. Pretty impressive stuff.

Site dependent really, For instance, no need here, with our high water table and clay soils it would be a waste of time. Root don't go deep as they would just rot. Here the rule is maybe a few inches below the rootball, and as wide and ugly as you care to dig.

[_Keith]

Here you go, check this out for a planting hole. In Kris case he was able to dig through the heavy clay to better draining soils.

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/4793-how-far-can-you-go/

[DoomsDave]

Kris has the benefit of helpers, with strong backs, and lots of patience.

We need to do a PRA to Chennai, one of these days . . .

[sonoranfans]

I remember a few years back, Kris in India putting some planting holes pic on here where he was going that deep. Pretty impressive stuff.

Site dependent really, For instance, no need here, with our high water table and clay soils it would be a waste of time. Root don't go deep as they would just rot. Here the rule is maybe a few inches below the rootball, and as wide and ugly as you care to dig.

I remember being on a horticultural site and the advice was that with many palms(but not all) roots will only grow as deep as the dry cycle. the soil must dry out some time. Of course if it never wets, the roots will not grow there either. I think its all a matter of soil and drainage, but bigger root systems mean more root membrane area to feed. I also remember some people saying that palms don't grow deep roots, that I found to be untrue. I dug out some cold fatalities in high drainage soil and found plenty of roots at 4' depth in a 4' bizzie that was killed at 21F x2 in Arizona. Some species like borassus can grow deeper roots than that. I dug out a 3' tall beccariophoenix alfredii and found a dozen roots at the 3' depth going deeper yet into the soil, but the hole I dug was only 15" deep when it was put in. In summation, its probably all about species, and the drainage and the wet/dry cycle. If you are digging in rock or clay and it doesn't drain, you will probably have shallow roots in that palm.

[DoomsDave]

"Doc exaggerates everything"

[richnorm]

Most of his stuff is pot planted

Now that is interesting. Would love to meet the Doc, don't suppose will ever get the chance though.

[David in Berkeley]

Digging plant pits 10 foot deep is ridiculous on the face of it, as anyone who does landscaping for a living can tell you. Just the eventual settlement over time is the main reason against doing it, as would be limited air exchange at excessive depths. UC planting recommendations recommend pits at same depth as toot ball, but significantly wider if dealing with marginal soil situations. Then again, planting out at smaller sizes and ideal season for best soil rooting growth can minimize need for excessively large plant pits altogether. Mulching with compost over native soils generally gives better results than amending a huge plant pit.