It's On,heading down on Sunday to photograph,document and collect any seed at the Urbenville location.Anyone can come along and join us(me,Andy,Daryl and Wal) on this mini Aussie Ratpack adventure.Having breaky at Canungra around 7.30-8.00.To get there will take 1.5-2 hours,through Beaudesert and Rathdowney to the Mt Barney and Woodenbong area and then on to Urbenville in northern N.S.W...allow half to three quarters day trip plus stop for lunch as well.....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

I suspect cold in NSW that far inland is driven by radiative freezes. In that context, keep in mind that valleys are colder than hillsides, and out in the open is colder than under canopy. The highest elevation valley with the least canopy will have the coldest tolerant specimens.

It's On,heading down on Sunday to photograph,document and collect any seed at the Urbenville location.Anyone can come along and join us(me,Andy,Daryl and Wal) on this mini Aussie Ratpack adventure.Having breaky at Canungra around 7.30-8.00.To get there will take 1.5-2 hours,through Beaudesert and Rathdowney to the Mt Barney and Woodenbong area and then on to Urbenville in northern N.S.W...allow half to three quarters day trip plus stop for lunch as well.....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

Mike - I'd be happy to put in some cash for a slab of Tooheys New if I could receive some seeds in return

Well hotdog! Can't wait to see what yall come up with. Great advice Axel.

Best of luck!!!!

Inge Hoffmann reported collecting the seed for her one tree that survived the 1990 Northern California freeze not far from the Atherton tableland, if I recall correctly. That surviving tree is the source for David Feix's collections. In discussing the 1990 freeze she estimated that her location reached lower than the 24F measured at the nearby Oakland Airport, which is nearly surrounded by San Francisco Bay.

The A. cunninghamiana population she found is very, very far north of the general range of A. cunninghamiana, yet it keys out to that species. I do wish I had recorded my discussion with her about the exact location. She recently died, and the other woman she was with on that trip to Atherton Tableland had died by the time Inge told me about the collection.

Ray Laub of Palm Patch nursery and now of the Big Island grew the seedlings from Inge's tree, which we at East West Trees bought, shifted, and later sold as 15-gallon plants. Ray's two-to-four-leaf seedlings endured the 2007 freeze at his location in a canyon in Los Altos Hills, California (Sunset zone 16), better than seedlings of the general Southern California-grown kings/bangalows/piccabeens. He estimated his lowest temperature at 22F but the seedlings probably saw no lower than 25F in their protected spot. Among the other plants that were damaged 50-80% at his location were Trachycarpus latisectus and T. martianus.

In the hope of getting an isolated source of seed, we have planted "Inge's Hardy" seedlings from 15-gallon cans at one of our yards that sees regular annual frosts but has no nearby A. cunninghamiana.

A note on California nomenclature: "king palm" is a literal translation of "archon" and "phoenix". It's inaccurate to apply to a single species in the genus, but common names for plants are just plain inaccurate anyway. People here call A. alexandrae "Alexander palm" even though it's named for Alexandra. Can't change the track of the common-name train once it's on its way down the track.

I always wondered why so many palms had Phoenix in the name!

In Greek the word Phoenix is synonym to Palm. The word Palm itself does not exist in Greek and it could lead to misconception, since the nearest similiar word means the hand palm.

I always assumed it had to do with the mythical bird because the Phoenix genus occurs in such inhospitable environments.

It's On,heading down on Sunday to photograph,document and collect any seed at the Urbenville location.Anyone can come along and join us(me,Andy,Daryl and Wal) on this mini Aussie Ratpack adventure.Having breaky at Canungra around 7.30-8.00.To get there will take 1.5-2 hours,through Beaudesert and Rathdowney to the Mt Barney and Woodenbong area and then on to Urbenville in northern N.S.W...allow half to three quarters day trip plus stop for lunch as well.....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

Mike - I'd be happy to put in some cash for a slab of Tooheys New if I could receive some seeds in return

Josh, we're talking about strains of bangalow palms that can better handle subtropical and warm temperate freezes, I think England's Winters would be a pretty far stretch, that degree of hardiness isn't within the gene pool of the species.

It's On,heading down on Sunday to photograph,document and collect any seed at the Urbenville location.Anyone can come along and join us(me,Andy,Daryl and Wal) on this mini Aussie Ratpack adventure.Having breaky at Canungra around 7.30-8.00.To get there will take 1.5-2 hours,through Beaudesert and Rathdowney to the Mt Barney and Woodenbong area and then on to Urbenville in northern N.S.W...allow half to three quarters day trip plus stop for lunch as well.....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

Go further inland, and higher altitude, then find a frost hollow with bangalows!

I don't know enough to contribute here, but it all kind of reminds me of the Syagrus romanzoffiana "litoralis" myth discussions.

Inge Hoffmann reported collecting the seed for her one tree that survived the 1990 Northern California freeze not far from the Atherton tableland, if I recall correctly. That surviving tree is the source for David Feix's collections. In discussing the 1990 freeze she estimated that her location reached lower than the 24F measured at the nearby Oakland Airport, which is nearly surrounded by San Francisco Bay.

The A. cunninghamiana population she found is very, very far north of the general range of A. cunninghamiana, yet it keys out to that species. I do wish I had recorded my discussion with her about the exact location. She recently died, and the other woman she was with on that trip to Atherton Tableland had died by the time Inge told me about the collection.

Ray Laub of Palm Patch nursery and now of the Big Island grew the seedlings from Inge's tree, which we at East West Trees bought, shifted, and later sold as 15-gallon plants. Ray's two-to-four-leaf seedlings endured the 2007 freeze at his location in a canyon in Los Altos Hills, California (Sunset zone 16), better than seedlings of the general Southern California-grown kings/bangalows/piccabeens. He estimated his lowest temperature at 22F but the seedlings probably saw no lower than 25F in their protected spot. Among the other plants that were damaged 50-80% at his location were Trachycarpus latisectus and T. martianus.

In the hope of getting an isolated source of seed, we have planted "Inge's Hardy" seedlings from 15-gallon cans at one of our yards that sees regular annual frosts but has no nearby A. cunninghamiana.

A note on California nomenclature: "king palm" is a literal translation of "archon" and "phoenix". It's inaccurate to apply to a single species in the genus, but common names for plants are just plain inaccurate anyway. People here call A. alexandrae "Alexander palm" even though it's named for Alexandra. Can't change the track of the common-name train once it's on its way down the track.

I always wondered why so many palms had Phoenix in the name!

In Greek the word Phoenix is synonym to Palm. The word Palm itself does not exist in Greek and it could lead to misconception, since the nearest similiar word means the hand palm.

I always assumed it had to do with the mythical bird because the Phoenix genus occurs in such inhospitable environments.

Actually the oldest known origin of the word Phoenix is mycenean (a proto-greek language) and first meaning was purple-red, a color reserved exclusively for the garments of kings and members of royal families. So a further evolution of meanings may iclude the insinuation of a royal, noble or even divine origin or property. In fact the name Principes given by Linnaeus to palms is on the same line...

It's On,heading down on Sunday to photograph,document and collect any seed at the Urbenville location.Anyone can come along and join us(me,Andy,Daryl and Wal) on this mini Aussie Ratpack adventure.Having breaky at Canungra around 7.30-8.00.To get there will take 1.5-2 hours,through Beaudesert and Rathdowney to the Mt Barney and Woodenbong area and then on to Urbenville in northern N.S.W...allow half to three quarters day trip plus stop for lunch as well.....cheers Mike Green (Newcal)

Hey Mike, thats very good news...

Now you will, of course, disregard all these clamouring foreigners and send a nice little package of seed to me and Troy down here in the dirty south, that way we can test it thoroughly in our optimum (or premium) cold conditions!

Seriously though, that would be a very interesting thing for us far souther's. I've found my Maleny collected Bangalows to be hardier than Illawarra's by a country mile, so these guys may have great potential.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Inge Hoffmann reported collecting the seed for her one tree that survived the 1990 Northern California freeze not far from the Atherton tableland, if I recall correctly. That surviving tree is the source for David Feix's collections. In discussing the 1990 freeze she estimated that her location reached lower than the 24F measured at the nearby Oakland Airport, which is nearly surrounded by San Francisco Bay.

The A. cunninghamiana population she found is very, very far north of the general range of A. cunninghamiana, yet it keys out to that species. I do wish I had recorded my discussion with her about the exact location. She recently died, and the other woman she was with on that trip to Atherton Tableland had died by the time Inge told me about the collection.

Ray Laub of Palm Patch nursery and now of the Big Island grew the seedlings from Inge's tree, which we at East West Trees bought, shifted, and later sold as 15-gallon plants. Ray's two-to-four-leaf seedlings endured the 2007 freeze at his location in a canyon in Los Altos Hills, California (Sunset zone 16), better than seedlings of the general Southern California-grown kings/bangalows/piccabeens. He estimated his lowest temperature at 22F but the seedlings probably saw no lower than 25F in their protected spot. Among the other plants that were damaged 50-80% at his location were Trachycarpus latisectus and T. martianus.

In the hope of getting an isolated source of seed, we have planted "Inge's Hardy" seedlings from 15-gallon cans at one of our yards that sees regular annual frosts but has no nearby A. cunninghamiana.

A note on California nomenclature: "king palm" is a literal translation of "archon" and "phoenix". It's inaccurate to apply to a single species in the genus, but common names for plants are just plain inaccurate anyway. People here call A. alexandrae "Alexander palm" even though it's named for Alexandra. Can't change the track of the common-name train once it's on its way down the track.

Jason,

I suspect that the north Qld strain that Inge collected would be the Eungella Range variety that Tyrone mentioned earlier, which as far as I know is the most northern outpost of this species.

Eungella is about 500km south of the Atherton Tablelands, but in the context of Qld distances this is not very much, and it's a lot further north than the general distribution.

I remember collecting some seed from the Eungella population at a place called Pease Lookout, which is from memory above 1000m altitude. Unfortunately the seed was old and only 2 germinated.

These two have grown painfully slowly, which is unusual for Bangalows, and probably a result of the very old seed, but have thick leathery leaves, which is promising for cold resistance.

I might go through that way again later in the year and try for some more seeds, though the timing will be wrong again I suspect.

Cheers,

Jonathan

Jonathan, what you have written is new to me! You mean that a seedling from an old seed grows slower than one from a fresh seed? I knew that an old seed may or may not germinate or may geminate after a longer time, but this information of yours is entirely new to me. Could you provide more details and examples please?

Only from personal observation, that I've found sometimes that very old dry palm seed can produce weak or slow growing seedlings.

I dont have any explanation for this beyond the obvious assumption that a dried up, stressed embryo may not respond with the speed and vigour of a fresh, or mature embryo.

I've often found that in any given batch of seeds there are a few that either germinate late and are weak, or germinate and rot.

This may come down to pure genetics, or perhaps the condition of the embryo is a factor - I dont know.

This does not seem to apply to Parajubaeas - they will germinate happily and vigourously for years on end!

Cheers,

Jonathan

On Growing on the Edge Forum they simply don't believe in provenance. They consider that cold tolerance is a species-wide thing. I remember a long and complex argument which ensued about that several years ago, although it was in relation to Dicksonia antartica rather than palms..

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but it is an interesting idea that cold-hardiness might be uniform across a whole species, rather than varying according to the location of an individual plant..

Josh, we're talking about strains of bangalow palms that can better handle subtropical and warm temperate freezes, I think England's Winters would be a pretty far stretch, that degree of hardiness isn't within the gene pool of the species.

I know Axel, but I can dream can't I?

Seriously though, there are some practically frost-free spots in Central London which might support a Bangalow and I'm certainly up for a challenge.

lolz.. pick ya bean

Frost free places in London? I lived there 1996-2004 and we got some pretty good snows. I think in 2003 or 2004 we had snow that stuck in Central London for days.

I think you'll need to protect somehow...Kings are marginal in Northern California which is a lot warmer in the winter...

On Growing on the Edge Forum they simply don't believe in provenance. They consider that cold tolerance is a species-wide thing. I remember a long and complex argument which ensued about that several years ago, although it was in relation to Dicksonia antartica rather than palms..

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but it is an interesting idea that cold-hardiness might be uniform across a whole species, rather than varying according to the location of an individual plant..

They're right and they're wrong. There are cultivars of many palm species that exhibit more cold hardiness than others. The cold tolerance potential exists in the entire species independent of provenance but provenance will already have allowed enough selection to express the right genes. If that selection has not occurred in a batch of seeds, it would take a horticulturist many years of selection over multiple generations to get the same genetic expression as in a natural range extension to higher elevation or higher latitude. Try looking at sabal minor for example.

On Growing on the Edge Forum they simply don't believe in provenance. They consider that cold tolerance is a species-wide thing. I remember a long and complex argument which ensued about that several years ago, although it was in relation to Dicksonia antartica rather than palms..

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, but it is an interesting idea that cold-hardiness might be uniform across a whole species, rather than varying according to the location of an individual plant..

I recall that discussion!

I would be very interested to know if the bangalow palms growing near the Bar Mountain picnic area on the Border Ranges are genetically the same as those growing at over 1000m lower elevation at nearby Tyalgum, Eungella, or Murwillumbah. Is it the same gene pool, just happened to get carried to high elevation by birds? Or is it a different genetic line? I 'found' a seedling in my shoe after visiting Bar Mountain once a few years ago. I planted it at my in-laws place at the foot of the Mackellar range. To me it does look different from the local bangalows, but maybe it's imagination.

Haven't we already demonstrated the differences in the selections with illawara? That palm screams in terms of growth when compared to the regular California king palm. Rings are about 2-3 x the size of rings on regular kings. They are also much, much more frost tender, 30-32F fries the fronds whereas regular kings don't see any leaf damage until at least 28F or lower.

I think the issue is that most of the folks on "Growing on the Edge" forum are in fact in climates that don't support any native palms. For them, hardiness means at least 4-5 standard deviations from the norm for a species in order to survive. I don't think that's reasonable to find that degree of mutation within a species as a function lof locale. But for us within the palm belt where there are freezes, we're looking for maybe a half to a full standard deviation at most. We're talking about having a palm survive 12 hours at -5C instead of 10 hours at -3C. We're also talking about lack of cosmetic damage during light freezes. We are not talking about surviving a dutch or English freeze where it's -2C during the day at -12C at night for several days in a row. By the time a species has mutated enough to adapt to something like that, the palm will have such distinct morphology that it will be considered a distinct species.

it looks maybe something like this:

Regular king palm: damage free in warm 9b, some cosmetic damage in cold 9b, survive with major damage in warm 9a.

Illawara: damage free in cool 10a, some cosmetic damage in warm 9b, survives with major damage in cold 9b.

"Special new King palm" cosmetic damage free in cold 9b, survives with major damage in cold 9a.

Only from personal observation, that I've found sometimes that very old dry palm seed can produce weak or slow growing seedlings.

I dont have any explanation for this beyond the obvious assumption that a dried up, stressed embryo may not respond with the speed and vigour of a fresh, or mature embryo.

I've often found that in any given batch of seeds there are a few that either germinate late and are weak, or germinate and rot.

This may come down to pure genetics, or perhaps the condition of the embryo is a factor - I dont know.

This does not seem to apply to Parajubaeas - they will germinate happily and vigourously for years on end!

Cheers,

Jonathan

I agree with this. I believe the slow growth is due to the old "food" left in the seed. If part of it rots then there is less for the new embryo to take nourishment from, so it slows way down until it has developed leaves and roots of it's own and can get what it needs. By the time it has done that the other better seedlings have got 2 or 3 times the size of the stunted one.

In regards to the Eungella range palms I was talking about, I was talking about A alexandrae there. I never found any Bangalows. The parks and wildlife had mislabeled some alexandrae as Bangalows up there, but I believe that Jonathan did find the real deal up there at 1000m altitude. As for extra cold tolerance, I could be wrong but I think the Bangalows at Mt Tambourine further south but at lower altitude would have similar cold tolerance as the Eungella ones. My Mt Tambourine Bangalows have proven to be fast robust things and they'll become the canopy palm for my Albany property with their feet in the lake.

This hasn't been mentioned yet, but an A alexandrae X cunninghamiana would likely have hybrid vigour and extra frost tolerance for those in King Palm challenged areas????????

By the way, It is not just cold hardy forms of Archo cunninghamiana we are researching this weekend, no sir, legend has it that the actual physical forms vary, leaf crown action I'm talkin' about here. There will be a full report ensuing, stay tuned.

Haven't we already demonstrated the differences in the selections with illawara? That palm screams in terms of growth when compared to the regular California king palm. Rings are about 2-3 x the size of rings on regular kings. They are also much, much more frost tender, 30-32F fries the fronds whereas regular kings don't see any leaf damage until at least 28F or lower.

Hi Axel, the difference is the Illawarra region is 100kms+ from Sydney. By contrast the examples I'm talking about above are about 3-4kms away on a map, but 1000m difference in elevation. Is this far enough to be considered a different provenance?

Absolutely it is. Altitude can form an environmental disjunction as easily as distance.

Eungella is a classic example. There are no alexandrae's to be spotted on the drive up the mountain, then a huge population in the forest on the plateau.

Further up the mountain is an isolated pocket of high altitude Bangalows.

In my opinion both these forms are likely to have been isolated long enough to be genetically different to their lowland brethren.

A palm from sea level 5km's away from a population at 1000m is unlikely to have adaptations to the colder temps required in a palm growing at altitude. It just seems logical to me.

Phil - I certainly remember the discussion about Dicksonia on Growing on the Edge...I still cant believe how convinced those guys were by their own strange theory of 'genetic memory' or some such nonsense.

It didn't seem to matter how much contrary evidence I dug up and produced, they just stuck to their guns - good fun - but ultimately boring, I haven't bothered going back to that forum!

A final point on provenance: if you dont believe in it as a factor contributing to cold hardiness or other adaptations, you should read up about the different varieties of potatoes grown on the terrace slopes of the Andes.

Basically they have, or had, a gradation of varieties suited to a huge range of different altitudes with increasing frost hardiness as you went uphill.

If it works for potatoes, then why not palms, or tree ferns? Put that in your pipe GotE!!

Cheers,

Jonathan

I think the issue is that most of the folks on "Growing on the Edge" forum are in fact in climates that don't support any native palms. For them, hardiness means at least 4-5 standard deviations from the norm for a species in order to survive. I don't think that's reasonable to find that degree of mutation within a species as a function lof locale. But for us within the palm belt where there are freezes, we're looking for maybe a half to a full standard deviation at most. We're talking about having a palm survive 12 hours at -5C instead of 10 hours at -3C. We're also talking about lack of cosmetic damage during light freezes. We are not talking about surviving a dutch or English freeze where it's -2C during the day at -12C at night for several days in a row. By the time a species has mutated enough to adapt to something like that, the palm will have such distinct morphology that it will be considered a distinct species.

Thats very well put Axel, and would explain why I was having such a hard time getting through to those guys about the tree ferns.

To them a dead Dicksonia is a dead Dicksonia, whether its from sea level or the mountains is of no consequence, because nowhere in Tasmania gets cold enough for long enough for those ferns to require European style hardiness.

However they will grow in England in a sheltered micro climate, which is where the selection of provenance could extend the range of gardens which might keep them happy alive.

It's still an interesting discussion, but I'll shut up about it now!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Absolutely it is. Altitude can form an environmental disjunction as easily as distance.

Eungella is a classic example. There are no alexandrae's to be spotted on the drive up the mountain, then a huge population in the forest on the plateau.

Further up the mountain is an isolated pocket of high altitude Bangalows.

In my opinion both these forms are likely to have been isolated long enough to be genetically different to their lowland brethren.

A palm from sea level 5km's away from a population at 1000m is unlikely to have adaptations to the colder temps required in a palm growing at altitude. It just seems logical to me.

Phil - I certainly remember the discussion about Dicksonia on Growing on the Edge...I still cant believe how convinced those guys were by their own strange theory of 'genetic memory' or some such nonsense.

It didn't seem to matter how much contrary evidence I dug up and produced, they just stuck to their guns - good fun - but ultimately boring, I haven't bothered going back to that forum!

A final point on provenance: if you dont believe in it as a factor contributing to cold hardiness or other adaptations, you should read up about the different varieties of potatoes grown on the terrace slopes of the Andes.

Basically they have, or had, a gradation of varieties suited to a huge range of different altitudes with increasing frost hardiness as you went uphill.

If it works for potatoes, then why not palms, or tree ferns? Put that in your pipe GotE!!

Cheers,

Jonathan

No need to travel so far, you have only to consider that first cultivation of wheat has been recorded by archaeologists initially in the Middle East about 8000 years BC and in the British Islands over 5000 years later. Only a naive person would believe that this original cereal grain would have also thrived directly in the UK. Same with rice cultivation in SE Asia regarding the widespread from southern (sub)tropical China to Korea and Japan.

Edited January 17, 201412 yr by Phoenikakias

Absolutely it is. Altitude can form an environmental disjunction as easily as distance.

Eungella is a classic example. There are no alexandrae's to be spotted on the drive up the mountain, then a huge population in the forest on the plateau.

Further up the mountain is an isolated pocket of high altitude Bangalows.

In my opinion both these forms are likely to have been isolated long enough to be genetically different to their lowland brethren.

A palm from sea level 5km's away from a population at 1000m is unlikely to have adaptations to the colder temps required in a palm growing at altitude. It just seems logical to me.

Jonathan

Yes it seems logical. However is it safe to assume the altitude difference equates with genetic seperation in this instance? What are the vectors of palm seed dispersal? Anyone can see it would be easy for seed from the Mountain top to get downhill, but is there some natural mechansim for seed dispersal from the huge population beneath back up to the hill tops? There are over 3 million people in the nearby greater Brisbane/Gold Coast area, can we count out the possibility of human intervention?

I posted the picture of the mountain-collected palm on another thread. It does look to me like it could be an alexandrae some idiot planted up there, or taken as seed by birds. In which case alexandrae has established in the most heat-deprived bangalow habitat I know of. Which almost restarts the GOTE argument....

The genetic seperation seems more logical in a more remote area such as your Eungella example (or again in the clear human intervention of Andean potatoes). What colour were the flowers in that population?

They weren't flowering while I was there, from memory, or at least I didn't pay enough attention!

In the case of the Banga you posted in the other thread, the vectors of dispersal would be birds I imagine, probably fruit pigeons mostly, and long distance dispersal certainly could not be ruled out.

But it's just possible that you've discovered a localised population with a distinct morphology, like the white flowered Nikau's Rich mentioned in the other thread (I've got some seedlings of those, will be interesting to see if they stay true to type). Dont forget that until 20 years ago Archontophoenix was considered to consist of just 2 species.

It's far more likely however that you've taken a photo of a normal Bangalow with immature flowers...I'm going to post a picture in the other thread that illustrates this possibility.

Or maybe you've found a new species: Archontophoenix bennzii.

Actually, come to think of it, theres no way we're gonna name it after a Kiwi, so I think A. jonathaniana sounds better, a modest name!

Cheers,

Jonathan

Alberto has bangalows from seeds my bro-in-law sent from Urbenville. I wonder if they have shown any extra cold tolerance?

I have regular "brazilian" king palms that are called "palmeira-real" in Brazil (royal palm). Difficult to say something about the origin of this kings/bangalows.

I also obtained seeds from "Burringbar" in Australia and also palms originated from Urbenville, collected by Benn´s brother in law who lives in that town . Since all this palms were planted there was not a freeze that wiped out any of my kings. The cosmetic damage of all this palms is similar every year. But last winter is probably killing one of the (3) older Burrinbar palms. Future will tell if a really low frost will kill ALL the king strains in my garden......or not!

Absolutely it is. Altitude can form an environmental disjunction as easily as distance.

Eungella is a classic example. There are no alexandrae's to be spotted on the drive up the mountain, then a huge population in the forest on the plateau.

Further up the mountain is an isolated pocket of high altitude Bangalows.

In my opinion both these forms are likely to have been isolated long enough to be genetically different to their lowland brethren.

A palm from sea level 5km's away from a population at 1000m is unlikely to have adaptations to the colder temps required in a palm growing at altitude. It just seems logical to me.

Jonathan

The genetic seperation seems more logical in a more remote area such as your Eungella example (or again in the clear human intervention of Andean potatoes). What colour were the flowers in that population?

When I was up there I only saw white flowers, but I was definitely in alexandrae territory. I had my eyes pealed for purple flowers but saw none. I never went further onto the Bangalow area that Jonathan mentioned though. I remember Daryl saying that the alexandraes and cunninghamiana's flower at different times and so natural crosses would be very unlikely. This is interesting because in cultivation in the right climate both species will flower and fruit all year round.

Even at lower elevation (Finch Hatton) it got cold at night in winter. I was definitely in alexandrae territory there and I hazard a guess that the morning at daybreak was 1 or 2C. It was seriously "freezing" for being in the tropics. The day got back up into the 20's pretty quickly though.

The Eungella alexandraes appear to be a fast robust grower

I am growing six archontophoenix cunninghamiana/banglows here in Gainesville, located in northern Florida (MUCH colder than the tropical climates at the southern extremes of Florida).

I do not have have any of "Inge's Hardy King Palm" growing here, but I know that it (the offpsring) can be purchased at thepalmbroker.com. (Correct me if I am mistaken about the website name) My bagalows/king palms are all from seed taken from a tree in (I think) Vista, California which allegedly tolerated a great deal of cold. The parent tree was bought in a random garden centre in San Diego County in the 1980s. Mine were planted a couple of years ago as 15 gallon size tree, i.e. about my height when planted. They have suffered no damage really, although there is one of the six which appears to be weaker than the others.

If I recall correct, they tolerated a night in the low twenties Fahrenheit about a year ago, i.e. about -6 celcius? ???? They suffered no damage at all, although I believe I had wrapped a blanket around them that night. They had also experienced two nights at 26 degrees fahrenheit last year and one recent night of 26.8 Fahrenheit during our "arctic vortex". Again, there is still no damage to speak of, although they are under a tall pine canopy and the "weak" one is now showing brown edging on its new spear which, for the most part, is green. I am not sure what I should be doing about this. Last year after a freeze, the weak one had this same brown edging on its new spear, but it simply grew out.

I am excited about Wal's trip into the cunninghamiana forests! Please bring back seed from the most promising specimens. It will be great to see what you find. I am definitely "staying tuned."

I forgot to mention that my bangalows/king palms (archontophoenix cunninghamiana) will invariably be experiencing 18 degrees Fahrenheit (-8 degrees celcius) at some point within the next couple of years, and I will not be providing any supplemental heat to them. I will keep you posted on that experiment. The 18 degree low may only last for an hour or a few minutes, and the temperature may jump up to the low 70s (20 C) the following afternoon (typical for our afternoons in winter), but I can guarantee that 18 degrees is coming at some point.

By the way, I know someone who experimented with archontophoenix alexandrae here in Gainesville, but they were not sufficiently cold-tolerant for our occasional extreme overnight lows temperatures. I doubt that archontophoenix alexandrae is as cold-tolerant as archontophoenix cunninghamiana, but there seems to be variation from one cunninghamiana to another also. I agree with posters that archontophoenix alexandrae is more attractive.

Apparently Wal, Daryl, Newcal, Andy and Mike have just returned from their excursion to Urbenville, NSW in search of bangalows/king palms. It was just posted this morning on a new palmtalk thread. The thread is entitled "UNLEASHED IN URBENVILLE" and will surely pop up if you google it. Sorry, I don't know how to embed the link into this message.

Here it is...

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/40262-unleashed-in-urbenville/

I have visited Eungella on a number of occasions and studied the Archontophoenix that occur there. They are well and truly intermingled throughout the rainforest and they DO flower at the same time so there must be some sort of genetic block that stops them from hybridizing unlike down in southern Queensland where Alexandras and Piccabeens seem to hybridise readily........ I recall one trip after a very cold winter on the mountain I examined young exposed specimens of both species. The young Alexandras were burnt from frost whilst the Piccabeens didn't seem to have any damage. Down in the Pioneer Valley around Finch Hatton Gorge it can get cold in winter but 1 or 2 degrees C is extreme and very rare, generally it is much warmer than that..................What is interesting is that despite the huge numbers of Piccabeen seeds that would wash down the creeks into the valley below every wet season there seems not to be any growing at the lower (tropical) altitude, I certainly have not seen any growing and it would appear to be exclusively Alexandra country.

Andrew, I don't know why they wouldn't flower at the same time there?...in cultivation here both species flower and fruit continuously...but we do get hybrids...maybe the insects up at Eungella are fussier?

Daryl it is something that has fascinated me for a long time and no doubt you have turned over every Piccabeen/Bangalow leaf in the rainforest there looking for that hint of grey on it just like I have........I had considered differing flowering periods but last time I was up there they were flowering side by side. Would be interesting if someone did some work to see why they don't hybridise in that location. Last time I spoke to Grant Larkin he was telling me that he was removing his Alexandras from his Sunshine Coast property due to the fact that they were hybridising with Piccabeens......very fascinating stuff I reckon.

Edited January 21, 201412 yr by Tropicgardener

We get a lot of native bees that love my Archontophoenix flowers here...I also get a lot of seedlings of alexandrae, maxima and cunninghamiana volunteering throughout the garden...maybe some are hybrids, but hard to tell at such an early age...I see a lot of Alabangs around the 'burbs though.

Or Bangalex

I have visited Eungella on a number of occasions and studied the Archontophoenix that occur there. They are well and truly intermingled throughout the rainforest and they DO flower at the same time so there must be some sort of genetic block that stops them from hybridizing unlike down in southern Queensland where Alexandras and Piccabeens seem to hybridise readily........ I recall one trip after a very cold winter on the mountain I examined young exposed specimens of both species. The young Alexandras were burnt from frost whilst the Piccabeens didn't seem to have any damage. Down in the Pioneer Valley around Finch Hatton Gorge it can get cold in winter but 1 or 2 degrees C is extreme and very rare, generally it is much warmer than that..................What is interesting is that despite the huge numbers of Piccabeen seeds that would wash down the creeks into the valley below every wet season there seems not to be any growing at the lower (tropical) altitude, I certainly have not seen any growing and it would appear to be exclusively Alexandra country.

The 1 and 2 degrees celcius was not noted on any thermometer, but it felt way colder than a normal Perth winters morning. It was the winter of 2007 that saw many damaged C renda and P pacifica in Mission Beach that year. In fact it was so cold in Mission Beach that we needed to run the reverse cycle heating. It was kind of weird to walk down to the coconut lined beach rugged up like it was a Perth winter. We were ripped off that year. No heat in the tropics until we hit Cairns. In fact we felt cold in Cooktown, so it was freakish cold weather that year.