Bees: Noticed any reduction in numbers?

[chris.oz]

Recently my Butia ??? flowered and I remembered someone saying that the Butia flower was very attractive to bees.

So far I have not seen a bee on the flowers. Then I remembered that colony collapse disorder is big news in other countries.

So, 3 questions, and probably these are for the old timers on palmtalk,

• Have you noticed bees active on your palm flowers?
• Have you noticed a reduction in bee activity,
• Have you noticed a reduction in seed set?

Having asked these questions, I realise that some palms actually are pollinated by other specific insect vectors and yet others

by wind blown pollen.

[Walter John]

It's been too hot for bees in my opinion. Sheesh, flying foxes are falling dead out of trees from the heat up here.

But, we all should keep an eye on the bee situation, good points, thoughtful post.

[chris.oz]

Thats OK Wal, palms love the heat. More palms less bats, its all good.

[Steve the palmreader]

Here in SW FL. there seems to more rogue bee hives taking over homes ( walls, eves ect. ) than ever ! Bee removal companies are staying busy as a bee

[richnorm]

Seems half our street has a hive now and have noticed really good fruit set. I got my first flowers on Pritchardia minor last year and the bees went crazy for it with the result that it is loaded with fruit now. Tasted some of the copious nectar myself which was pretty good. Got my first Euterpe flowers coming too so fingers crossed...

[stygiana]

Yes, I noticed on many occasions intense bees activity when palms are flowering (which is the case of many of them here, right now).

And I noticed that in my neighbourhood, many citrus are sprayed (not in my property of course) with systemic insecticides when they are in blossom, so the result is that we see dozens of dead of agonizing bees on the ground.

And actually, when it happens, I observed reduced seed set, or poorer germination of the seedlings for which I clearly remembered that they came from fruits which were the ones of a blossom which happened during such event.

That's bad!

Where I work, there are no bees at all (intense farming all around). In that case, it's almost better like that because of the clients / visitors. Some species there produce almost 100 % of viable seeds and don't seem to require bees (I don't mean they do not require pollinators, but apparently no bees), but others species which normally fruit and set viable seeds elsewhere in the Canaries only produce drupes with empty seeds, or no fruit at all...

I'd like to write more on that subject, and provide more of my experience and observations, but because of the new ToS, I am concerned that I might be in trouble for what I would write...

[_Keith]

http://www.vicbeekeepers.com.au/what-is-wrong-with-our-bees-.html

[Tyrone]

Bees have been OK over in my area. Had some Foxy Lady infloresences, and some Dypsis leptocheilos and the bees were up there doing there thing. Seed set is a little hard to tell cos the leptocheilos must have been practicing and threw the whole infloresence off. Foxy lady's don't hold much seed anyway, but the infloresences are holding. Was down on the south coast looking at a flowering Butia a few weeks ago and yes, the bees do seem to love them.

Maybe the bee numbers are down locally. If the council or agriculture have been using strong pesticides it may have knocked the bee population down. Those timer set Mortien cans you can buy now that release a spray every 15 minutes i reckon could destroy a bee population if everyone used them. I think they're really irresponsible as they knock all the insects down, including beneficials like bees.

[Phoenikakias]

Does anyone here believe in (global) conspiracy theories? My situation is very subtle, since I used to apply on my palms (thanks to rpw and paysandisia plus the outrageous cost of biological treatment) neonicotinoids. Therefore I am gonna state merely facts and avoid drawing any conclusions. Neonicotinoids have been banned in EU for two years last summer, but many States have voted against plus 4 more have abstained (and people aware of the political ballance and dependance inside the EE can guess that in this context not voting whatever equals rather disapproval of the planned measures). I treat my palms three years long and nevertheless last summer, when a Brahea and an Arenga in my garden were in bloom, I got waken one morning by an intense noise. At first I thought it occured a leak in the main water pipe lines, but guess what was actually the reason for this noise; thousands of bees on palm flowers! Honey producers in southwestern Peloponnese some years ago have been complaining that hives have been dying mysteriously; they have hidden microcameras around the beehives, and guess what; they have discovered that a person was deliberately spraying hives with a strong veterinarian poison (Sebacil). This person was a Bulgarian, has been convicted by a Greek court in absentia during 2013 but he has disappeared...

[chris.oz]

In my case the lack of bees is probably a local issue. Just no hives nearby, or maybe it only takes one stray to come and see the Butia and call its sisters in to

feed on the butia flowers........... I dont know. But thinking about it I havent seen bees in my garden for a long time. Lets wait and see.

[LJG]

I have never read one scientific article linking Neonicotinoids to CCD. And a lot of smart people have tried to link the two but just couldn't. I am not saying it isn't a cause, just saying no one has proven it to be such.

[stygiana]

I have never read one scientific article linking Neonicotinoids to CCD. And a lot of smart people have tried to link the two but just couldn't. I am not saying it isn't a cause, just saying no one has proven it to be such.

Gennaro Di Priscoa, Valeria Cavaliereb, Desiderato Annosciac, Paola Varricchioa, Emilio Caprioa, Francesco Nazzic, Giuseppe Gargiulob, and Francesco Pennacchioa (2013)

"Neonicotinoid clothianidin adversely affects insect immunity and promotes replication of a viral pathogen in honey bees" in Procedings of the National Academy of Science of the United States of America:

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/46/18466

Penelope R. Whitehorn, Stephanie O’Connor, Felix L. Wackers, Dave Goulson (2012) "Neonicotinoid Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production"

in Science:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351

Andrea Tapparo , Daniele Marton , Chiara Giorio , Alessandro Zanella , Lidia Soldà , Matteo Marzaro, Linda Vivan and Vincenzo Girolami (2012) "Assessment of the Environmental Exposure of Honeybees to Particulate Matter Containing Neonicotinoid Insecticides Coming from Corn Coated Seeds" in Environmental Science Technology:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es2035152

Yang, E. C., Y. C. Chuang, Y. L. Chen, and L. H. Chang (2008) “Abnormal foraging behavior induced by sublethal dosage of imidacloprid in the honey bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae).“ in Journal of Economic Entomology 101:1743–1748

And there's much much more...

[_Keith]

He didn't say there weren't any, he said he never read one. Rofl.

[LJG]

I have never read one scientific article linking Neonicotinoids to CCD. And a lot of smart people have tried to link the two but just couldn't. I am not saying it isn't a cause, just saying no one has proven it to be such.

Gennaro Di Priscoa, Valeria Cavaliereb, Desiderato Annosciac, Paola Varricchioa, Emilio Caprioa, Francesco Nazzic, Giuseppe Gargiulob, and Francesco Pennacchioa (2013)

"Neonicotinoid clothianidin adversely affects insect immunity and promotes replication of a viral pathogen in honey bees" in Procedings of the National Academy of Science of the United States of America:

http://www.pnas.org/content/110/46/18466

Penelope R. Whitehorn, Stephanie OConnor, Felix L. Wackers, Dave Goulson (2012) "Neonicotinoid Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production"

in Science:

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351

Andrea Tapparo , Daniele Marton , Chiara Giorio , Alessandro Zanella , Lidia Soldà , Matteo Marzaro, Linda Vivan and Vincenzo Girolami (2012) "Assessment of the Environmental Exposure of Honeybees to Particulate Matter Containing Neonicotinoid Insecticides Coming from Corn Coated Seeds" in Environmental Science Technology:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es2035152

Yang, E. C., Y. C. Chuang, Y. L. Chen, and L. H. Chang (2008) Abnormal foraging behavior induced by sublethal dosage of imidacloprid in the honey bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae). in Journal of Economic Entomology 101:17431748

And there's much much more...

My futuristic typing machine is also plugged into the Inter Webs. And my Google Machine is functional too.

Let me go ahead and simplify my request. Show me one scientific paper or article that has any backing at all that says "Neonicotinoids are the cause of CCD". Smoking causes cancer. Fact. Obesity leads to heart disease. Fact. Neonicotinoids caused CCD? Show me where it has been reported. It would be big news I am sure so it should be easy to find.

Now am I shocked that chemicals that are designed to kill insects could affect bees? Of course not. However, as of right now many factors are being studied. Pathogens, parasites, management stressors and environmental stressors are still all being looked at as the cause of CCD. Heck, some studies link cell phone use to CCD. Maybe it turns out that there are several accomplices that share responsibility for CCD. But too many people like to target neonicotinoids as the main culprit and run with it as THE cause when no one has proven it such. Also as long as there is no conclusive and reproducible data to make that determination, the USDA or EPA will not ban neonicotinoids. If someday a direct link between bee colony losses and exposure to a specific chemical are found, I am pretty sure they will be banned. Let's just hope we don't take the approach the French did and ban something only to introduce an even greater toxin. They banned Imidacloprid and went to fipronil.

The very first report you simply Googled and pasted here (most likely didn't read) states:

"A stronger impact of pathogens in honey bees exposed to neonicotinoid insecticides has been reported, but the causal link between insecticide exposure and the possible immune alteration of honey bees remains elusive"

Look, I am not some put my head in the sand kind of guy when it comes to this stuff. I have spent a lot of time researching this. I am not some pro-pesticide company guy. I know pesticides are bad (but a necessary evil) and would love a world without. I try to limit as much as I can as I too have a family I look to protect. I always buy organic and fruits grown without pesticide use for example. So let me finish by stating what I did in my first post. "I am not saying it isn't a cause, just saying no one has proven it to be such."

[LJG]

He didn't say there weren't any, he said he never read one. Rofl.

Really Keith? That is your response? ...and ROFL? What, are you 10?

[LilikoiLee]

Bees in Hawaii are also dying out. Our worst current problem is a banana moth whose larvae burrow into the crownshaft and eat out the new growth killing the palm. We've been fortunate that it hasn't effected our palms but know that other people on the Big Island are having to fight them. Hopefully they'll chime in on the topic.

Lee

[stygiana]

What I like in this forum is the friendly atmosphere.

And I am very sad no to be in the "friendly mood" tonight... I am truly shocked by how rude LJG has been with such a chummy guy as Keith (I think Keith was only teasing and testing one's sense of humor).

So I won't lose more time with sterile arguments and won't even answer the sarcastic assumptions LJG wrote about myself. For someone who claims he just believes in 100% proved direct links, such gratuitous, wanton fancying is weird, isn't it?

LJG, I won't debate with you, which is a shame in forum, a place for exchange (and even stormy discussion, as long as it stays respectful), but I have here factual documents and I am not your punching ball.

I only reply for the members of this forum who are interested in this subject, so they could rely on facts and not stay on such a confusing post as n°14.

Here is a key article on direct links between neonicotinoids and CCD with which you can't really play with words:

http://stream.loe.org/images/120406/Lu%20final%20proof.pdf

Can't be more clear.

And the doses employed are surely less than what I often observe here in the Canaries (and saw in so many other countries) where bare-skin, unprotected farmers put up to 20 times (I do not exaggerate) the dose (well, they actually often do not use measure) and, once this done, add even some more "to make sure it will really be efficient". I let you imagine the result "in the real world". I witness myself dozens (or more) of dead bees several days after nearby orchards have been sprayed with neonicotinoids (I can tell when they have been sprayed from the unmistakable smell in the air).

I also suggest you to read, if are logged in, the article mentioned above (post n°12) in Science (for those who don't know this great review, it is probably the most prestigious and above all reliable paper in scientific studies and worth a subscription). http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351.abstract

No "direct link" mentioned there as LJG would say, but I think it's however quite useful in the understanding of the CCD issues and origins.

I stop now, each word I write can be food for arguments and persnickety most-little-fault-finding.

Well, once again, just before I quit:

http://stream.loe.org/images/120406/Lu%20final%20proof.pdf

[LJG]

What I like in this forum is the friendly atmosphere.

And I am very sad no to be in the "friendly mood" tonight... I am truly shocked by how rude LJG has been with such a chummy guy as Keith (I think Keith was only teasing and testing one's sense of humor).

So I won't lose more time with sterile arguments and won't even answer the sarcastic assumptions LJG wrote about myself. For someone who claims he just believes in 100% proved direct links, such gratuitous, wanton fancying is weird, isn't it?

LJG, I won't debate with you, which is a shame in forum, a place for exchange (and even stormy discussion, as long as it stays respectful), but I have here factual documents and I am not your punching ball.

I only reply for the members of this forum who are interested in this subject, so they could rely on facts and not stay on such a confusing post as n°14.

Here is a key article on direct links between neonicotinoids and CCD with which you can't really play with words:

http://stream.loe.org/images/120406/Lu%20final%20proof.pdf

Can't be more clear.

And the doses employed are surely less than what I often observe here in the Canaries (and saw in so many other countries) where bare-skin, unprotected farmers put up to 20 times (I do not exaggerate) the dose (well, they actually often do not use measure) and, once this done, add even some more "to make sure it will really be efficient". I let you imagine the result "in the real world". I witness myself dozens (or more) of dead bees several days after nearby orchards have been sprayed with neonicotinoids (I can tell when they have been sprayed from the unmistakable smell in the air).

I also suggest you to read, if are logged in, the article mentioned above (post n°12) in Science (for those who don't know this great review, it is probably the most prestigious and above all reliable paper in scientific studies and worth a subscription). http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6079/351.abstract

No "direct link" mentioned there as LJG would say, but I think it's however quite useful in the understanding of the CCD issues and origins.

I stop now, each word I write can be food for arguments and persnickety most-little-fault-finding.

Well, once again, just before I quit:

http://stream.loe.org/images/120406/Lu%20final%20proof.pdf

I was never rude to you. I will simply chalk that up to English most likely not being your primary language. It is very unfortunate when people take things out of context. Like you took mine, perhaps I took Keith's. But from past history I went with my guy there.

People can read your reply and what I posted and make up their own decisions. One fact remains, Neonicotinoids have not been proven to be THE cause of CCD. You simply find articles on online without grasping that fact. I too can find a bunch telling a different story. I can find articles where studies have shown cell phones can cause CCD. I have read a bunch where pathogens are blamed. I have read ones where Neonicotinoids are to blame too. Lucky for the world of science people like you are not in the lead. CCD is far more complex and this is why studies are still being done.

[stygiana]

Other recent studies and validations are little by little confirming the more direct (death, loss of orientation, queen's fertility, etc) and indirect (rise of viral infections on exposed bees) links of neonicotinoide to CCD.

http://www.beesource.com/files/pone.0043562.pdf

http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol65-2012-273-280sgolastra.pdf

etc.

But CCD is probably not caused only by neonicotinoids. It is a complex phenomenon which will require more study. But what is every time more evident is the additional stress caused by neonicotinoids and their accentuate effect on CCD. Bad enough...

What is sad as usual is this sterile argument between two extreme and subjective positions: neonicotinoids are not the cause (on one side) and neonicotinoids are the real cause on the other side...

This one is very instructive concerning possible improvement thanks to new formulas and also on the fact "that many data are scattered and/or not publicly available. A better communication between industry, academia and government may help for a better risk assessment."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3338325/

[LJG]

Other recent studies and validations are little by little confirming the more direct (death, loss of orientation, queen's fertility, etc) and indirect (rise of viral infections on exposed bees) links of neonicotinoide to CCD.

http://www.beesource.com/files/pone.0043562.pdf

http://www.bulletinofinsectology.org/pdfarticles/vol65-2012-273-280sgolastra.pdf

etc.

But CCD is probably not caused only by neonicotinoids. It is a complex phenomenon which will require more study. But what is every time more evident is the additional stress caused by neonicotinoids and their accentuate effect on CCD. Bad enough...

What is sad as usual is this sterile argument between two extreme and subjective positions: neonicotinoids are not the cause (on one side) and neonicotinoids are the real cause on the other side...

This one is very instructive concerning possible improvement thanks to new formulas and also on the fact "that many data are scattered and/or not publicly available. A better communication between industry, academia and government may help for a better risk assessment."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3338325/

You went through that whole accusatory post above to only confirm what I stated in my post you had an issue with? And do not put me into the one extreme. My words exactly from my post above:

"Maybe it turns out that there are several accomplices that share responsibility for CCD. But too many people like to target neonicotinoids as the main culprit and run with it as THE cause when no one has proven it such."