Sabal uresana

[merrill]

Here is a formerly bright silvery S. uresana which is turning dull blue-green as it matures, as I understand they normally do in the U.S. Do they maintain their brilliant silvery color longer in the Mexican semi-desert? Does anyone have a photo of a taller Mexican S. uresana that has maintained its silvery color? Note the relatively dwarfed six foot human to the right of the base.

Merrill

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Merrill,

I have a Sabal uresana that was a beautiful silver/blue when it was young, less than 3' when planted.  It's being crowded out by other palms that have grown up around it and it doesn't get full sun now.  It has been very slow growing for me, slower than the other Sabals, and it's lost its blue sheen, but it's still more grey than the other Sabals.  I wished I had known how large they get or I would have given it more room.  Yours looks like a beauty.

In Northern Calif, Sabals virtually stop growing when the night temps. drop below 50F, as do most of my palms.  They speed up considerably during the summer months and usually grow about 5 new fronds a season, except for S. Riverside which grows faster and is the best Sabal for N. Calif. You don't see many Sabals in California because they are slow growing and they take up a lot of room.

Dick

[merrill]

Hi. Dick:

Do you have any experience with Sabal maritima? There were groves of as many as a hundred near the coast of Cuba.  They were, to my mind, the most attractive of all the Sabal.  Well proportioned, with a light gray, smooth, straight  trunk, very deep green foliage.  I overlooked it for most of my life, but am trying it now!

The growth of both my blue and off-green uresana has seemed to be a little slower than my other Sabal, but if one judged by mass or weight rather than height, they might come out even.

How does S. bermudana do in California?  It has been said to be identical to "Riverside"

Best Wshes, - merrill

[Zac in NC]

Merrill- Yes, they do keep their silvery color in the wild.....Well, one population we saw did.

First, the coastal form, not blue at all, at least not in San Carlos Sonora.

Then, the inland ones, into the mountains, east of the town of Ures.

Zac

[Zac in NC]

And a few more shots. Its so nice knowing how they grow in the wild and being able to post the pics.

Zac

[Alberto]

(merrill @ Feb. 17 2007,17:52)

QUOTE

Note the relatively dwarfed six foot human to the right of the base.

Merrill

I was thinking:´´What the hell is a ´dwarfed six foot human´´(something from another planet? )since I couldn´t see anything on the right of the palm ,when it slowly came up in my my mind ...Oooh yes six foot - meters, centimeters ,finally i understood this english sentence!

[iamjv]

Zac,

 Nice pics.  Love seeing them in the wild.   What month of the year were these pics taken in???  JV

[Al in Kona]

Zac, love those pics of the silver/blue Sabal uresana in habitat in Sonora, Mexico.  I've always admired that palm - probably my favorite of all the Sabals.  I'm just happy to have a very small one growing in the garden and it does have a nice glaucous leaf.  It is almost 1.5m (5') tall in this pic which I just took . . .

[merrill]

Hi, Alberto:

My apologies for my poor choice of words.  The dwarfed 6 ft human is difficult to see in the shadow, and is also dwarfed by the palm.  My non-english speaking students said they could understand me when I spoke to them, but not when I spoke to U. S. students.  My apologies again.  merrill

[Zac in NC]

JV- This was a trip I took with Richard back in July of this past year.

Al- Glad you liked them. I was apprehensive at first about taking a trip to Sonora. I wanted to head farther South, into Veracruz. I have a small seedling uresana from YuccaDo that I will plant out this Spring. Its about a 5 gallon pot, its filled it with roots but the plant is only about a foot tall. Hopefully it will  shoot up soon.

Zac

[tank]

Merrill,

If I remember correctly, your blue S. uresana is not in full sun (at least for most of the day) and is surrounded by some large laurel oaks.  I wonder if it would have more color in a more exposed location with less humidity.  Hope you're doing well.  Looked like it got a little chilly out your way this weekend.

I might just be my imagination, but "blue/grey" palms always look a little less blue under canopy.

[Morabeza]

Great pics Zac!

[merrill]

Hi, Tank:

Most of the trees are to the north of the uresana, and the cover hasn't changed much in the two years that saw the color change.   I would very much  like to hear from anyone in the US who has a S. uresana that hasn't faded as it matured.

I certainly agree that bright blue/gray palms are brighter in the sun.  Best Wishes,  merrill

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Merrill,

In answer to your questions: I am not familiar with S. maritima, but it sounds like a nice one. Do you have any pictures of it?

I have 8 different kinds of Sabals growing in Walnut Creek, all older than 30 years.  I once had 10 different kinds but two, after growing about 10' of woody trunk developed a bud rott and slowly died. Of the two that died, I think it was because they got crowded out by other plants. From my experience, I think Sabals need full sun and lots of air movement to thrive perhaps with the exception of S. minor which does well for me in part shade in a protected area.

I know there is a lot of confussion about what S. Riverside is, some think it's a hybrid, others just aren't sure, but it has been one of my  best preformers and has grown the fastest. S. causiarum has also done well, but it was damaged in the big freeze of 89/90, but it recovered nicely. S. uresana, we have discussed, and it's been slow, but maybe mine is not in an ideal location as it needs more sun.

I have four other Sabals, which I'm not sure what they are, but they all look different.  One is the "mystery" Sabal, which some have said keys out closer to S. etonia, but much more robust and hold many fronds. I have two of these and one has formed a trunk while the other is trunkless.  It's tough as nails and was not touched by the big freeze.

Even the best taxonomist will tell you that Sabals are very difficult to identify unless their point of origon is known.  Apparently they hybridise eaisly, so unless the seeds come from habitat....it's a guessing game.

One of my unknowns has light green fronds, and has the haibit of throwing out 3 sphers at once, and they all open very closely together.  It usually goes through 3 cycles in a summer so it produces about 9 fronds a  growing season.  It has long peitoles and looks quite different from the other Sabals. It is also quite hardy and has never been touched by freezing temps. Even though it has several feet of woody trunk, it has never bloomed yet.

S. mauritiformis is the most delicate of the Sabals.  It needs a tropical, humid enviroment and will not last long in N. Calif.

Sabals are well worth growing, but you have to be patient as they are rather slow, and you need some heat in the summer.  They are tough, and durable.

Dick

[PalmGuyWC]

Merrill,

Just got your latest post.  Something I have observed over the years:  All of the palms that have "color" no matter what their genus, lose some of their color during the shorter cool months.  That includes Sabals, Butias, Braheas, Nannorrophs, Trithrinax and particulary Serenoa.

I have four Serenoa that came from Florida, only the most silver I could find.  When they come to California, they seem to lose a lot of the silver.  Only into the end of summer do they seem to color up, but then during the short day, winter months, they lose a lot of the color.  Another weird thing about the silver Serenoas.....some of mine will have bands on the fronds...some bands will be silver, then another band of grey/green. I haven't figgured this out yet.....if the bands are caused by our occassional heat waves or what. I suppose this another puzzle into the odditys of growing palms.

Dick

[Kathy]

(PalmGuyWC @ Feb. 19 2007,11:20)

QUOTE

S. mauritiformis is the most delicate of the Sabals.  It needs a tropical, humid enviroment and will not last long in N. Calif.

 

I hope mine survives at least until I buy a Hawaii home.... mine, planted poolside for extra humidity,  is pushing a new spear since the freeze, so I'm hopeful,  but I know it's a gamble.

I know I will not see my other Sabal species grow to size here.  I wish there were some magic thing we could feed our palms to hurry their growth.

And very interesting about the banding, Dick.

[Zac in NC]

(PalmGuyWC @ Feb. 19 2007,11:20)

QUOTE

Even the best taxonomist will tell you that Sabals are very difficult to identify unless their point of origon is known.  Apparently they hybridise eaisly, so unless the seeds come from habitat....it's a guessing game.

I think Sabals are self pollinators, so hybrids are rare. It is true about knowing the origin of where they came from.

Zac

[tank]

I've always thought that the "blueish" tint was from wax.  Plants often produce wax on their leaves to reduce water loss, along with other reasons.  It makes sense that these plants would produce more wax when subjected to more heat/drought.

[tank]

This might be a little far fetch, but I wonder if a blueish or silvery tint serves as a reflective function as well.

[PalmGuyWC]

Jason,

Nice theory, but once it heats up here where I live, there is not much difference between the upper 80's and the low 100's, and the night temps are just about the same.  There seems to be no rhime or reason for the banding on the Serenoas, but you are probably right....it's the temps. Mine get watered and fertilized on a regular schedule.

Dick

[iamjv]

I believe this was mentioned before but there seems to be two different varieties of uresanas, a coastal and an inland variety.  The inland variety is clearly the bluer of the two.  I read else where, at some point in the past, that they do tend to lose their blueness with age, this might have been directed more at the coastal variety for Zac's pics clearly show mature blue uresanas.  

The urensana I've collected seed from at the Univ of Arizona, is clearly a coastal variety and with 25' of trunk, isn't hardly blue at all.  I have pics of this palm in my U of A Album from my webshots link below...

[Tad]

ah, that would explain it. I germinated some seed from senor volks and som from ortanique,(both of excellent quality)

and the volkseedlings are not quite as blue, but a little on the silverish side compared to the joseph seedlings which are a darker blue with less of a silver color. hmmmm very interesting!!! very interesting indeed.

[tank]

Dick,

Its not the heat, its the humidity .

Low 100's in Florida makes for a pretty miserable day.

I'm sure your Serenoas are dreaming of weeks 90% humidity and low to mid 90'sF.

Merrill's blue uresana is beautiful but his two greens are just as impressive, if not more.  A non-palm-enthusiast friend of mine saw them and picked them out right away as different from the ubiquitous Sabal palmetto.  Commented that they were "cabbage palms on steroids".  

I have a very small blue uresana thats just starting to produce its character leaves.  It is currently "very blue".  I hope it does not fade (or kick the bucket).

[tank]

Close up of Merrill's blue uresana.

[merrill]

Hi, Jason.

How old is the above uresana photo?  Right now in real life it seems to me to be less blue than your photo, yet a couple of years ago (dammit, no photo) it was a brilliant blue/grey.  Using that prior color as a standard, I’m disappointed that none of the mature desert uresana, while bluer than any adult uresana  I’ve seen in Florida, are a much  more subdued glaucous than the young ones  I’m familiar with.  I am still very grateful to Zac to see them in habitat.   Gordon Smith in Orlando has the tallest one I've seen in the U. S.  

Quoting Tank, "I've always thought that the "blueish" tint was from wax.  Plants often produce wax on their leaves to reduce water loss, along with other reasons.  It makes sense that these plants would produce more wax when subjected to more heat/drought."

I'll make another prediction: In nature's perfection, the spectrum of light absorption by the Serenoa leaf reflects the unwanted wavelength but optimizes the desirable  wavelengths for photosynthesis.  The chain length of Copernicia wax is 50 carbons!  - merrill

Group: Forum Members

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 Posted on: Feb. 19 2007,12:36        

[Zac in NC]

Merrill- Seeing them in the wild, they were very striking, almost as I would think seeing Blue Bizzies in the wild would be like. One of the highlights of my life(so far) while viewing plants in habitat.

Zac

[Alberto]

(merrill @ Feb. 18 2007,23:28)

QUOTE

Hi, Alberto:

My apologies for my poor choice of words.  The dwarfed 6 ft human is difficult to see in the shadow, and is also dwarfed by the palm.  My non-english speaking students said they could understand me when I spoke to them, but not when I spoke to U. S. students.  My apologies again.  merrill

Hi Merril,

 The problem isn´t YOUR English, but MY perception of this perfect English sentence!

  I remember that i read somewhere that a guy planted a lot of ´´carnaúbas´´(Copernicia prunifera) in the less warm and more humid Southeast for the harvest of wax. This palms didn´t produce commercially viable amounts of wax, like they do in dry Northeast Brazil...

[tank]

Merrill,

I took this photo in November, if I remember correctly.  It was a little overcast that day.

Zac,

Your pics are great.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

A bump for the folks looking for a bismarckia substitute.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I did not know there was a green form of uresana.

[Alicehunter2000]

Axel, I got this palm from Ken's nursery. He said it was S. urseana as far as he knew. It got severely burned this last winter, about the same as S. causiarum. Native Sabal palmetto laughed at the cold so I know it is not that. It never looked very blue and are not nearly as colorful as a Bizmarkia or my little B. "clara"..... at least not this urseana.