Rules of Decorum and PalmTalk

[Jim in Los Altos]

It has come to my attention just moments ago that Axel in Santa Cruz was removed from this forum after he made attempts to settle some problems he was having concerning harassment accusations he made towards a certain member(s) of our forum.

Dean, will you please explain this situation before rumors or false information start infiltrating this forum, Facebook, and other sites.

Thank you.

[MattyB]

His profile doesn't say "stumphead". What happened?

[_Keith]

Although inquiring minds want to know, and yes, I too am curious. We also need to consider Axel's privacy. We all get passionate from time to time on the forum. If Axel's wishes to appeal, I assume he can do so directly to the BOD. Dean can use his own judgement in answering, but please respect his decision, one way or the other.

[Alicehunter2000]

I like Axels posts......hope he will continue to post. He puts a lot of thought into his discussions and that will be missed if he is not allowed back on PT.

[Perito]

I noticed that the thread had been deleted that I believe caused the problem. I hope this is resolved. His input on Palmtalk will be missed.

[KennyRE317]

I'm not sure what happened as I'm in the middle of hosting a baby shower but I've always loved Axel's post

[mjff]

I still see him as an active forum member?

[Sabal Steve]

Axel is someone who is rather blunt and gets right to the point, which, truthfully, is something that I admire. I hope this issue is something that can be resolved, because Axel brings a wealth of knowledge regarding palms to the table that we can all benefit from

[Jim in Los Altos]

He messaged me on Facebook with his dilemma. I hope it can be resolved. I enjoy his posts and input.

[George Sparkman]

Axel is listed as a member and I would think that means he is a member and can post as always.

[George Sparkman]

I hope so too Jim since Axel posts quite colorful.

[Sutter Bob]

Ditto, hope to see the problem resolved and Axel back soon.

Not too many of us northerners posting here and I've learned a lot from Axel.

[PALM MOD]

I will not make public any disciplinary actions that are taking place. If someone wants to share their side of a story as to what has happened, and why it is unfair, of course they are free to do so. But it will only be their side of the story.

And let me remind everyone that there are sometimes three sides to a story. The two sides who don't see eye to eye, and each one certain they have not done anything wrong, and the moderator's side who's obligation is to take action that is in the best interest of the Forum. Be assured that the PT Committee and I only care what is best for the Forum. And we are in agreement as to the action we have taken.

[Ken Johnson]

Passion and Decorum are not always easy to balance, I know. Axel will be back....I'm guessing in a few days....

[Mandrew968]

I will not make public any disciplinary actions that are taking place. If someone wants to share their side of a story as to what has happened, and why it is unfair, of course they are free to do so. But it will only be their side of the story.

And let me remind everyone that there are sometimes three sides to a story. The two sides who don't see eye to eye, and each one certain they have not done anything wrong, and the moderator's side who's obligation is to take action that is in the best interest of the Forum. Be assured that the PT Committee and I only care what is best for the Forum. And we are in agreement as to the action we have taken.

Sounds like you are one of the few who knows what action was taken--can you shed light on what actions were taken? I am not asking for any sides--also can you express which rule/rules were broken so that a reminder be made for those of us who are concerned about following the 'yellow brick road'?

[doranakandawatta]

I really feel we need to be enlightened! Can we hope that in the darkening IPS ?

So many thanks!

Philippe

This is coconut coir preparation first stage, not the IPS "marigot" !

[PALM MOD]

I will not make public any disciplinary actions that are taking place. If someone wants to share their side of a story as to what has happened, and why it is unfair, of course they are free to do so. But it will only be their side of the story.

And let me remind everyone that there are sometimes three sides to a story. The two sides who don't see eye to eye, and each one certain they have not done anything wrong, and the moderator's side who's obligation is to take action that is in the best interest of the Forum. Be assured that the PT Committee and I only care what is best for the Forum. And we are in agreement as to the action we have taken.

Sounds like you are one of the few who knows what action was taken--can you shed light on what actions were taken? I am not asking for any sides--also can you express which rule/rules were broken so that a reminder be made for those of us who are concerned about following the 'yellow brick road'?

No, we have never done so. It is not our practice to "drag anyone through the mud" while highlighting and explaining in detail what they have done wrong. Sometimes these actions are the result of a long string of events over a long period of time. And a thorough explanation would be extremely time consuming. This has already consumed many hours of a half dozen or more administrators - really uncalled for.

In addition, it would only turn into a "pissing" match with the offending party arguing why they have not done anything wrong, and why I, the committee, and PT are biased, irrational dictators. In fact, this is what has already been occurring on other venues, emails, and phone calls - directly up to the IPS President.

[Mandrew968]

" In fact, this is what has already been occurring on other venues, emails, and phone calls - directly up to the IPS President."

Sound like someone has a really exciting and busy life!

[Jeff Searle]

I will not make public any disciplinary actions that are taking place. If someone wants to share their side of a story as to what has happened, and why it is unfair, of course they are free to do so. But it will only be their side of the story.

And let me remind everyone that there are sometimes three sides to a story. The two sides who don't see eye to eye, and each one certain they have not done anything wrong, and the moderator's side who's obligation is to take action that is in the best interest of the Forum. Be assured that the PT Committee and I only care what is best for the Forum. And we are in agreement as to the action we have taken.

Sounds like you are one of the few who knows what action was taken--can you shed light on what actions were taken? I am not asking for any sides--also can you express which rule/rules were broken so that a reminder be made for those of us who are concerned about following the 'yellow brick road'?

Shed some light??? Really? To ME.....it's NONE of MY business.

[BS Man about Palms]

What Jeff said... if you have to wonder whether what you are saying or doing is questionable, it probably is a problem waiting to grow.

[Mandrew968]

What Jeff said... if you have to wonder whether what you are saying or doing is questionable, it probably is a problem waiting to grow.

Bill, who doen't have problems??

[Moose]

What Jeff said... if you have to wonder whether what you are saying or doing is questionable, it probably is a problem waiting to grow.

Bill, who doen't have problems??

[Stevetoad]

Like my pops used to always tell me. "If you have to ask yourself if what your doing is wrong, it is". Wish I listen to him more.

[Jeff Searle]

Like my pops used to always tell me. "If you have to ask yourself if what your doing is wrong, it is". Wish I listen to him more.

Yea! I wish somebody else around here would listen to their father more often. Somebody that has some respect.

[_Keith]

His profile doesn't say "stumphead". What happened?

Regardless of what action taken and its reasoning, a non-profit entity publicly labeling someone as a "stumphead" is probably not the wisest thing to do from a legal perspective. Perhaps this was some of that new legal advice. If not, it should have been.

It is not a very professional thing to do as well. Although I can not say if the action was warranted or not, as I was not privy to those details, I commend Dean on the public aspect of handling this one.

[PALM MOD]

Thanks Keith - and regarding your comments about the term "Stumphead" - a term hatched before I came on board close to a decade ago. I understand what you are saying. But would "Banned" be any less painful? Perhaps some other term? I don't know, but I'm always open to the opinions of others.

[_Keith]

Thanks Keith - and regarding your comments about the term "Stumphead" - a term hatched before I came on board close to a decade ago. I understand what you are saying. But would "Banned" be any less painful? Perhaps some other term? I don't know, but I'm always open to the opinions of others.

If a word must be used, then "inactive" would be pretty generic with no implied meaning of fault, but I'd say just as quietly as possible, and with no further comment, freeze the account with no annotation at all. Exactly as you did here, which is the most graceful for all involved. But, that is just my opinion and would love to hear others.

[bgl]

If I recall correctly, "Stumphead" came about because a member, who was using "Stumpy" as his PT name, had to be banned - for a variety of reasons.

And I think "inactive" is a bit too meek. If someone is intent on deliberately breaking the rules over and over again I do believe it needs to be made very clear that this individual has been terminated, once and for all. And that has certainly been the case a number of times over the years. "Stumphead" may not be the best choice, but then again - not up to me!

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Stumphead was his Palm Talk identity, at least the first one. He came back in several times under newly registered pseudonyms and proved difficult to identify until he started to act up again. Stumphead, who everyone called "Stumpy" was actually Stumheaded several times. He caused RLR considerable consternation.

[bgl]

He sure did, and I may not recall all the details but yes, he did use a number of identities and posted some very offensive stuff in addition to sending offensive and threatening PMs to a number of women on PalmTalk.

[PALM MOD]

Keith may need a clarification that what just occurred was only a suspension. And as I said, I prefer to keep these quiet. But in this case it was the suspended party who broadcast it everywhere. There is no notice or designation when someone is suspended, but they can no longer post.

The procedure for disciplinary action per event is usually as follows. Verbal warning (maybe more than one), 1 week suspension, 2 week suspension, then a Stumphead. In rare instances, someone can go directly to Stumphead for particularly egregious behavior. And some people have gone ballistic all of a sudden. By the time a Stumphead rolls around I have usually lost any desire to accommodate the troublemaker, and care little whether his/her feelings are hurt. It is very difficult to earn a Stumphead around here. Unless you know the ropes, the term could actually be a compliment. It isn't clear what this means, so really not disparaging at first glance.

For me it is kind of a respectful link to RLR, and I think I know what he would say about Keith's suggestion. He put up with a lot less "stuff" than we do these days.

[Moose]

Relax people. You really have to work hard to achieve the "stumphead" status.

Axel will be back shortly if he so chooses. It's kinda like like what the other "Dean" did.

Keith - I don't see the term "stumphead" being politically incorrect. The term is unique to this forum and has some history to it. To the novice visiting the forum, the "status" would most liely go unnoticed. Like stated above, you really have to work at being a stumphead. Multiple warnings are issued in the process.

[Jeff Searle]

If I recall correctly, "Stumphead" came about because a member, who was using "Stumpy" as his PT name, had to be banned - for a variety of reasons.

And I think "inactive" is a bit too meek. If someone is intent on deliberately breaking the rules over and over again I do believe it needs to be made very clear that this individual has been terminated, once and for all. And that has certainly been the case a number of times over the years. "Stumphead" may not be the best choice, but then again - not up to me!

I couldn't agree more!

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I appreciate Dean's decision not to want to make any "disciplinary action" public. So let me take the liberty to clarify what happened as I do not mind letting people know, and I don't want people to have a negative impression of PalmTalk and the IPS. This is an IPS only forum so please do not share this outside of the IPS, this is our own stuff.

As many of you know me, writing is one of my passions, so thanks for reading what I am about to write.

I received some not so savory personal messages from someone whose name I won't mention out of courtesy for their privacy. This happened a few months ago. This same person started to post some unwanted stuff in a recent thread of mine, and rather than respecting Dean's request to never engage this person, I chose to respond. Dean promised us both there would be consequences if we did engage again. My thread got deleted and I got very frustrated and I demanded the other person should be removed from palmTalk. The next day I find out I got temporarily suspended. Unfortunately, subsequently, I didn't see any of Dean's E-mails to me because my inbox was programmed to dump all PalmTalk E-mails into a folder that I never read. My perceived lack of communications from the IPS regarding my suspension added insult to injury and I angry because I felt I was treated unjustly.

However, a week away from PalmTalk did me some good. After some serious personal reflection, I decided that there were too many cool people involved with the IPS and that above and beyond PalmTalk I was actually an IPS member. It's not PalmTalk that is my home, but it's the IPS, and I happen to enjoy PalmTalk. I also respect Dean's desire to moderate the forum in a way that keeps everyone around no matter what the differences are. Some of us are American, some are Australian, some are European, some are democrats, some are republican, some of us live in tropical paradises, others live in artic tundras. But what we all have in common is that we are Palm nuts. So we all deserve a seat at the table so to speak.

I am a big enough person to be able to reflect on my own screwups and look at my own contribution to getting suspended. I am not gonna try to paint lipstick on a pig: getting suspended sucks, but sometimes tempers flare and a short time away is actually healthy. The internet is a funny medium in that our own tapes can project all sorts of stuff onto bits and bytes. I am no more immune to that phenomena than others. If anything, this experience was a clear demonstration for me, because a lot of my own conclusions about some folks on PalmTalk turned out to be so wrong - even down to their voice or how I imagine they look.

The reality is that behind every profile on PalmTalk is a real person. It's easy to construct images of these people in ways that fall short of who they really are. My practice on PalmTalk from now on will be to embody the Zulu greeting "Sawubona" which means 'I see you' even if I can only see bits and bytes. Zulu myth goes further and says, "Umuntu ngumuntu nagabantu", meaning, "A person is a person because of other people". We are people because other people see us. Palms aren't much fun unless there are others to share them with.

Not everyone will see me for who I am, but I can't do anything about that. I can only try to "see" people for who they really are - as all are beyond measure. And I am sorry to those whom I failed to "see", that goes out especially to Dean, on whom I projected the buk of my distain for authority.

So Sawubona to all my fellow palm nuts, thank you for putting up with me on PalmTalk. I hope some day to meet you in person so we can laugh about all the silly things that take place on this forum.

[PALM MOD]

Axel,

My favorite t-shirt as a rebellious teenager was the one that had "Challenge Authority" emblazoned across the front. And I still do. So it is fitting karma that I should now have this job.

And perhaps it is why I am uncomfortable wielding it's authority. But whether I am comfortable or not, I am the "cop" around here. And better to have a cop who doesn't enjoy the power part of his job. So I am always pleased when any "confrontation" can end amicably, and any useful information is shared.

[Kennybenjamin]

Well said Axel and Dean, you guys are both obviously clever guys and both of your posts are amicable and thoughtful. I don't envy Deans job here and I think he always tries his best to be fair to everyone, I am sure he often has to make decisions that he would rather not make.

Welcome back Axel, I don't know you but your contributions to pt are always an interesting read. I applaud your attitude in your post above and your right on at least 2 points, palms are always better if you can talk about them with other palm nuts and pt always gets a mention whenever I bump into another palmtalker, and laughs generally are part of the "conversation".

Nice to see a friendly end to this chapter!!!!

[Mandrew968]

That's mighty big of you to own up to your own discretions--I am glad you are back and we can all smile and talk about palms! Dean is an awesome Cyber cop--and I hate cops!

It's easy to look out--much harder to look within...

[bgl]

Axel,

Welcome back! I was impressed reading your post above. People who have the courage and ability to look critically at themselves, and take action accordingly, will always stand out - in a good way. You are definitely one of them!

Bo-Göran

[LJG]

Axel, people like you that do not run from adversity are always a winner in my book. Welcome back!

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Axel,

Ditto what others have said here. As for me, I take back half the bad things I said about you. If you buy me a beer next time you are in Florida, I will take back the other half.