Do you ever dream of open communications with no hidden agenda?

[_Keith]

At least I think it was a dream. Or was it? Things that make you go hmmmm.

[PALM MOD]

Not dreaming, but trying to make it so.

[DoomsDave]

Dream on

Dream about this world we're going to live in

One fine day . . .

[Cindy Adair]

Specifically related to Palmtalk, your committee members from Hawaii to California to Virginia are posting around the clock everyday to try to accomplish this ideal. As to communications outside in the real world, that's our goal for next year.

[DoomsDave]

All jokes aside, we manage to be remarkably non-partisan -- on palm-related matters.

[Kim]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.
Theodore Roosevelt

[PALM MOD]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.

Theodore Roosevelt

Kim - it might be wise to forward that to everyone on the BOD.

[bgl]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.

Theodore Roosevelt

Leadership - wow! Theodore Roosevelt sure had some interesting ideas!

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

At least I think it was a dream. Or was it? Things that make you go hmmmm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciS5GikZ5Jo

[Mandrew968]

Hidden agenda? Where--I can't see it!

[_Keith]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.

Theodore Roosevelt

Kim - it might be wise to forward that to everyone on the BOD.

Now, of course, on trait of those "good men and women" would be to communicate accurately, thoroughly and proactively.

[sur4z]

_{Dream on until your dreams come true...}

_{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTZ76vhnKk}

[_Keith]

Imagine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCX3ZNDZAwY

[LJG]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.Theodore Roosevelt

Kim - it might be wise to forward that to everyone on the BOD.

Now, of course, on trait of those "good men and women" would be to communicate accurately, thoroughly and proactively.

Keith, still waiting for you to engage Leland. You asked where IPS leadership was then disappeared when he posted.

[LJG]

Hidden agenda? Where--I can't see it!

Andrew, you mean you can't see the conspiracy going on by a bunch of volunteers that are helping run a non-profit that is trying to help educate and conserve the palms we love?

[sonoranfans]

If you want that dream, you will have to go elsewhere.... at least at this time. The word "conspiracy" has been used so much to try to discredit that people forget its definition. Companies conspire to make money, and politicians conspire to get elected... every dang day! Hidden agendas and conspiracies are perhaps the norm, not the exception. How many would have told you that you are whacko if you thought NSA was spying on private communications of many millions of every day americans and the press 4 years ago. I used to think those people were unbalanced, but it turns out that I was just ignorant and a willing pawn.

True leadership involves getting people to buy in without misleading or deceiving them. It is quite rare in American business AND politics today. This is why most American businesses can only raise profits by laying people off. And poor leadership like that has no vision for the future, obviously.

[LJG]

Tom, what has changed now that was not already being done by the IPS or on PT let's say 4 years ago? 8 years ago?

[Mandrew968]

Hidden agenda? Where--I can't see it!

Andrew, you mean you can't see the conspiracy going on by a bunch of volunteers that are helping run a non-profit that is trying to help educate and conserve the palms we love?

No, I was just being witty. Everything is a hidden agenda, unless it's unorganized and then there is no agenda.

[Kim]

"The void created by the failure to communicate is soon filled with poison, drivel and misrepresentation."

— C. Northcote Parkinson

You might wonder, "who the heck is C. Northcote Parkinson?" I did. So I looked him up, and was not disappointed. It turns out C. Northcote Parkinson, aside from understanding the value of open discussion, also developed (from Wikipedia) "Parkinson's law of triviality, also known as bikeshedding or the bicycle-shed example, is C. Northcote Parkinson's 1957 argument that organizations give disproportionate weight to trivial issues. Parkinson demonstrated this by contrasting the triviality of the cost of building a bike shed to an atomic reactor. The law has been applied to software development and other activities.

"The concept was first presented as a corollary of his broader "Parkinson's law" spoof of management. He dramatizes this "law of triviality" with the example of a committee's deliberations on an atomic reactor, contrasting it to deliberations on a bicycle shed. As he put it: "The time spent on any item of the agenda will be in inverse proportion to the sum [of money] involved." A reactor is used because it is so vastly expensive and complicated that an average person cannot understand it, so one assumes that those that work on it understand it. On the other hand, everyone can visualize a cheap, simple bicycle shed, so planning one can result in endless discussions because everyone involved wants to add a touch and show personal contribution.^"

[Funkthulhu]

At least I think it was a dream. Or was it? Things that make you go hmmmm.

I used to think it was possible, but whenever I tried I'd end up single again!

[sonoranfans]

Tom, what has changed now that was not already being done by the IPS or on PT let's say 4 years ago? 8 years ago?

Cant say about 8 years ago Len, I joined PT in 2007. I don't recall anyone ever proposing shutting off the PM feature without PT forum member or IPS membership(outside BOD) input. I do not recall sixty day delays in reporting these kind of decisions to the community. This action sure seem to have a political side to it. But of course I wasn't an IPS member till recently, perhaps I didn't see the political side of IPS. I'll let others decide for themselves what has changed.

[_Keith]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.Theodore Roosevelt

Kim - it might be wise to forward that to everyone on the BOD.

Now, of course, on trait of those "good men and women" would be to communicate accurately, thoroughly and proactively.

Keith, still waiting for you to engage Leland. You asked where IPS leadership was then disappeared when he posted.

Len, this is the second time you have posted this. Leland started a thread with what looked like a well thought out post. People attempted to engage him, the last request asking "Can you please update us on these initiatives?". No replies were forthcoming.

Finally Dean posted the following, "Leland has a lot of things on his plate at the moment. But I just got off the phone with him and expressed how important I thought it was for the BOD to maintain some semblance of an open dialogue here with IPS Members and others. He understood that it was a good idea, but unsure how to make it happen. We tossed around a few ideas and hopefully there will be some follow up to improve the communication between PT and the IPS proper."

A subsequent post appeared and then just as quick disappeared.

I think at this point, not just me, but the entirety of IPS Membership, and especially the PalmTalk community is waiting for Leland to engage us.

[LJG]

Tom, what has changed now that was not already being done by the IPS or on PT let's say 4 years ago? 8 years ago?

Cant say about 8 years ago Len, I joined PT in 2007. I don't recall anyone ever proposing shutting off the PM feature without PT forum member or IPS membership(outside BOD) input. I do not recall sixty day delays in reporting these kind of decisions to the community. This action sure seem to have a political side to it. But of course I wasn't an IPS member till recently, perhaps I didn't see the political side of IPS. I'll let others decide for themselves what has changed.

Tom, you raise some valid points. But like I said to Keith, go to the IPS Forum thread where Leland (the President) opened up dialog and ask him. Ask him to offer up FULL disclosure on what lead up to the PM outcry for example. It seems to me a few would rather not ask the questions but only continue to make waves. It is much easier to make waves in an already rough sea. Leland and Elana (Chair of the Nominations Committee) both came here and no one engaged them or asked the very questions that could possibly quiet their frustrations.

[sonoranfans]

Tom, what has changed now that was not already being done by the IPS or on PT let's say 4 years ago? 8 years ago?

Cant say about 8 years ago Len, I joined PT in 2007. I don't recall anyone ever proposing shutting off the PM feature without PT forum member or IPS membership(outside BOD) input. I do not recall sixty day delays in reporting these kind of decisions to the community. This action sure seem to have a political side to it. But of course I wasn't an IPS member till recently, perhaps I didn't see the political side of IPS. I'll let others decide for themselves what has changed.

Tom, you raise some valid points. But like I said to Keith, go to the IPS Forum thread where Leland (the President) opened up dialog and ask him. Ask him to offer up FULL disclosure on what lead up to the PM outcry for example. It seems to me a few would rather not ask the questions but only continue to make waves. It is much easier to make waves in an already rough sea. Leland and Elana (Chair of the Nominations Committee) both came here and no one engaged them or asked the very questions that could possibly quiet their frustrations.

Len,

My understanding of Leland's post is that it did not illicit engagement of a dialog. After reading it, I thought it sounded like an explanation that was intended to close the discussion. I have some experience in these kinds of interactions and communications and feel fairly confident that was its intent. While I thought Keith's request for an update seemed a bit political(advertising and IPS enrollment has not increased much, its obvious and needs no answer, its like a political "gotcha"), it is fairly easy to move past a response like that and engage further if that was the intent. The president of the United States has time to engage his electors, surely the president of IPS can do that too from time to time. If Palmtalk is an important part of IPS, it would be hard to tell that from the interaction between the BOD and PT. In the place of this communication vacuum and combined with some of the more recent events(PM event), it would not be unreasonable to assume that PT is not very important to the BOD. I have to wonder what would have transpired here if PM's were shutdown and no explanation was given till 30 days later, as Leland had directed. I suspect it would have been far more damaging to PalmTalk. From my perspective the only damage from this "leak" has been some "ruffling of hair" and perhaps wounded egos and I would hope we can move past that. I do not know the great majority of the BOD, perhaps I have misinterpreted these events and this just could have been handled better.

[PALM MOD]

Note - as luck would have it, Leland has been experiencing some frustration with posting/replying. It appears to be a technical issue, and we are working on it. So please cut him some slack. And please also realize that sometimes things and communications between many different parties with different understandings, backgrounds, ideas, and different nationalities, may not be perfect - or may even result in an unintended big mess.

But that is a much better explanation than a grand conspiracy. My first question is a conspiracy to what end. I can tell you that some of the volunteers running the show now are not conspiring to take up all their free valuable time to manage a conspiracy. I'm sure some of them wish they hadn't even accepted the responsibility in the first place. In other words what is in it for them to really gain?

[LJG]

The best executive is the one who has sense enough to pick good men to do what he wants done, and self-restraint to keep from meddling with them while they do it.Theodore Roosevelt

Kim - it might be wise to forward that to everyone on the BOD.

Now, of course, on trait of those "good men and women" would be to communicate accurately, thoroughly and proactively.

Keith, still waiting for you to engage Leland. You asked where IPS leadership was then disappeared when he posted.

Len, this is the second time you have posted this. Leland started a thread with what looked like a well thought out post. People attempted to engage him, the last request asking "Can you please update us on these initiatives?". No replies were forthcoming.

Finally Dean posted the following, "Leland has a lot of things on his plate at the moment. But I just got off the phone with him and expressed how important I thought it was for the BOD to maintain some semblance of an open dialogue here with IPS Members and others. He understood that it was a good idea, but unsure how to make it happen. We tossed around a few ideas and hopefully there will be some follow up to improve the communication between PT and the IPS proper."

A subsequent post appeared and then just as quick disappeared.

I think at this point, not just me, but the entirety of IPS Membership, and especially the PalmTalk community is waiting for Leland to engage us.

Keith, I was not talking about that thread. That was one he posted on Dec 9, 2012! Until October 23rd of 2013 no one asked questions. So I am sure after waiting almost a year for questions, maybe he grew tired of waiting?

I was referring to this recent thread:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/39122-good-news-for-palmtalk-all-is-not-lost/?p=607633

Also, please don't speak for all of the IPS and PT. When you consider most of the some 1500 IPS members never come here or the fact all but a select few even seem to be having issue with the new Board here on PT, I don't think it fair to say "but the entirety of IPS Membership, and especially the PalmTalk community is waiting for Leland to engage us.". Especially considering he just did in that thread I posted.

You and I have very similar idea's when it comes to improving the IPS, I think we just go about it differently.

[joe_OC]

Tom, what has changed now that was not already being done by the IPS or on PT let's say 4 years ago? 8 years ago?

Cant say about 8 years ago Len, I joined PT in 2007. I don't recall anyone ever proposing shutting off the PM feature without PT forum member or IPS membership(outside BOD) input. I do not recall sixty day delays in reporting these kind of decisions to the community. This action sure seem to have a political side to it. But of course I wasn't an IPS member till recently, perhaps I didn't see the political side of IPS. I'll let others decide for themselves what has changed.

Tom, you raise some valid points. But like I said to Keith, go to the IPS Forum thread where Leland (the President) opened up dialog and ask him. Ask him to offer up FULL disclosure on what lead up to the PM outcry for example. It seems to me a few would rather not ask the questions but only continue to make waves. It is much easier to make waves in an already rough sea. Leland and Elana (Chair of the Nominations Committee) both came here and no one engaged them or asked the very questions that could possibly quiet their frustrations.

I have reached out to Elana via PMs to ask her questions, but have not gotten any responses...

[_Keith]

Keith, I was not talking about that thread. That was one he posted on Dec 9, 2012! Until October 23rd of 2013 no one asked questions. So I am sure after waiting almost a year for questions, maybe he grew tired of waiting?

I was referring to this recent thread:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/39122-good-news-for-palmtalk-all-is-not-lost/?p=607633

Also, please don't speak for all of the IPS and PT. When you consider most of the some 1500 IPS members never come here or the fact all but a select few even seem to be having issue with the new Board here on PT, I don't think it fair to say "but the entirety of IPS Membership, and especially the PalmTalk community is waiting for Leland to engage us.". Especially considering he just did in that thread I posted.

You and I have very similar idea's when it comes to improving the IPS, I think we just go about it differently.

I confess, never saw that thread a year ago. It is kind of hard to keep up with them all, I admit. Did Leland ever followup on it until this? I am asking an honest question, I don't know the answer.

I have not taken any shots at Leland, but Leland is the board appointed head of IPS. It is his job to guide IPS and to engage the membership in doing so. And no that was not a shot either, I know he is also a volunteer with a life outside of IPS, and I can appreciate that. It looks like he could use some help from a good communications committee. If we already have one, then you can consider this a shot at them.

However, I have taken some shots at the Web Committee, which to this day is planning to make changes to PalmTalk, and probably even the right changes, yet refuses to disclose them. A case well made will always have detractors, but will gain many more allies. Remaining silent will only draw suspicion, mine included. If the committee is convinced they are fixing to make the right moves, then by all means share them. I will get behind it. Not saying only convinces me the committee is not sure they are making the right moves, in which case say it. Asking for constructive input cannot fail.

I know we want many, heck probably nearly of the same things. I know we both want a sustainable meaningful IPS with a happy membership. Perhaps we may be partners in accomplishing that as board members. One thing I can promise is that I will share issues and possible resolutions with this PalmTalk community to get their input before action is taken. I will insure that nothing is sprung upon them without warning.

[LJG]

Tom, what has changed now that was not already being done by the IPS or on PT let's say 4 years ago? 8 years ago?

Cant say about 8 years ago Len, I joined PT in 2007. I don't recall anyone ever proposing shutting off the PM feature without PT forum member or IPS membership(outside BOD) input. I do not recall sixty day delays in reporting these kind of decisions to the community. This action sure seem to have a political side to it. But of course I wasn't an IPS member till recently, perhaps I didn't see the political side of IPS. I'll let others decide for themselves what has changed.

Tom, you raise some valid points. But like I said to Keith, go to the IPS Forum thread where Leland (the President) opened up dialog and ask him. Ask him to offer up FULL disclosure on what lead up to the PM outcry for example. It seems to me a few would rather not ask the questions but only continue to make waves. It is much easier to make waves in an already rough sea. Leland and Elana (Chair of the Nominations Committee) both came here and no one engaged them or asked the very questions that could possibly quiet their frustrations.

I have reached out to Elana via PMs to ask her questions, but have not gotten any responses...

She said she is not familiar with PT so maybe email her too.

https://www.palms.org/directors.cfm

[LJG]

Keith, I was not talking about that thread. That was one he posted on Dec 9, 2012! Until October 23rd of 2013 no one asked questions. So I am sure after waiting almost a year for questions, maybe he grew tired of waiting?

I was referring to this recent thread:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/39122-good-news-for-palmtalk-all-is-not-lost/?p=607633

Also, please don't speak for all of the IPS and PT. When you consider most of the some 1500 IPS members never come here or the fact all but a select few even seem to be having issue with the new Board here on PT, I don't think it fair to say "but the entirety of IPS Membership, and especially the PalmTalk community is waiting for Leland to engage us.". Especially considering he just did in that thread I posted.

You and I have very similar idea's when it comes to improving the IPS, I think we just go about it differently.

However, I have taken some shots at the Web Committee, which to this day is planning to do make changes to PalmTalk, and probably even the right changes, yet refuses to disclose them. A case well made will always have detractors, but can also gain many more allies. Remaining silent will only draw suspicion, mine included. If the committee is convinced they are fixing to make the right moves, then by all means share them. I will get behind it. Not saying only convinces me the committee is not sure they are making the right moves, in which case say it. Asking for constructive input cannot fail.

I know we want many, heck probably nearly of the same things. I know we both want a sustainable meaningful IPS. Perhaps we may be partners in accomplishing that as board members. One thing I can promise is that I will share issues and possible resolutions with this PalmTalk community to get their input before action is taken. I will insure that nothing is sprung upon them without warning.

Keith, nothing will just appear one day. No proposal has been even sent to the EC for review so there simply isn't anything going on behind the scenes. Major site changes take time. I am sure once a proposal is approved the concept of how the new IPS website will work will be posted here. After all it will need content to make it work. That means content from the scientific community all the way down to us hobbyist.

[joe_OC]

Note - as luck would have it, Leland has been experiencing some frustration with posting/replying. It appears to be a technical issue, and we are working on it. So please cut him some slack. And please also realize that sometimes things and communications between many different parties with different understandings, backgrounds, ideas, and different nationalities, may not be perfect - or may even result in an unintended big mess.

But that is a much better explanation than a grand conspiracy. My first question is a conspiracy to what end. I can tell you that some of the volunteers running the show now are not conspiring to take up all their free valuable time to manage a conspiracy. I'm sure some of them wish they hadn't even accepted the responsibility in the first place. In other words what is in it for them to really gain?

I don't think any of the IPS BOD critics here have used the term "conspiracy". I have always stated that it was a mindset. The biggest difference I see is that the majority of the people on the BOD are in later stages of their lives. This accounts for their limited understanding / use of the internet / palmtalk. The face of the IPS is changing, especially with the group that is in Palm Talk. There is a big disconnect there. If you can't relate to your members, how can you manage effectively?

[bgl]

"Later stages of their lives", oops I guess I am branded for life now! While, that may certainly be true in some cases, I think it would be dangerous to make that distinction across the board. I have a very good friend, who at 83, is very adept at using the computer and the internet. I hardly think he is an exception. The way I see it, limited understanding is more likely from lack of interest. As in "lack of interest about PalmTalk" in our particular case. I have witnessed that first hand for many years now. The disconnect is quite simply because of lack of engagement here on PalmTalk. With more and more Directors who are active on PalmTalk that WILL change. And the IPS will be a better organization because of it.

[joe_OC]

"Later stages of their lives", oops I guess I am branded for life now! While, that may certainly be true in some cases, I think it would be dangerous to make that distinction across the board. I have a very good friend, who at 83, is very adept at using the computer and the internet. I hardly think he is an exception. The way I see it, limited understanding is more likely from lack of interest. As in "lack of interest about PalmTalk" in our particular case. I have witnessed that first hand for many years now. The disconnect is quite simply because of lack of engagement here on PalmTalk. With more and more Directors who are active on PalmTalk that WILL change. And the IPS will be a better organization because of it.

Bo, you are absolutely correct. I did not necessarily mean not knowing how to use the internet, but it's the amount of time they spend on it and how they use it. It's not a big part of their lives. And, I did say "majority" not ALL

[bgl]

I know! Sometimes I can't help myself! One of those fatal flaws in my personality...

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I know! Sometimes I can't help myself! One of those fatal flaws in my personality...

It's OK Bo. We make special considerations for people in their "later stages of life".

[joe_OC]

I know! Sometimes I can't help myself! One of those fatal flaws in my personality...

It's OK Bo. We make special considerations for people in their "later stages of life".

Boy...I am not going to hear the end of that comment...

[bgl]

I know! Sometimes I can't help myself! One of those fatal flaws in my personality...

It's OK Bo. We make special considerations for people in their "later stages of life".

Hmmm...and when do these "special considerations" actually begin to kick in?

[DoomsDave]

bo

enjoy while you can

Or, while I can . . .