palm choices in UK?

[Bennz]

Looking through some of the pictures on Nigels website leads me to wonder just what does grow in UK. Years ago I had an interesting discussion with a guy who had pictures of a Dypsis lutescens on the Cornwall coast, a palm which I find quite difficult in my warmer-winter climate.

Do  the cool-tolerant palms such as Parajubaea, Rhopalostylis, Ceroxylon,  Hedyscepe etc grow ok? Or are you limited to palms with actual cold-tolerance such as Trachies, CIDP, Butia etc? Most of the UK people who post here seem  to mention extreme lows within the cool-tolerant range  rather than cold-tolerance.

Another question, I see Queen palm on Nigels site. Is this palm suited to UK?  While it certainly has cold-tolerance, my observations here in NZ is that it needs pretty steady summer heat to look ok, and that  palms like Archontophoenix cunninghamiana  grow a lot better in cool summer areas. Queen palms grow ok here, but 400kms further south in Wellington they look pretty sad.

[Nigel]

Benn,the palms listed at my website are pretty much what I think will grow here , I dont like to sell palms like Dypsis which dont have a hope in hell.

The queens are an experiment, they come from a cold place and are more of an experiment. The ones I sold to the south west corner of UK last year seem to be doing well, but I doubt they can cut it in most of the country, only the more favoured parts.

[Palmtrader]

Benn, we have been trading palms in the UK since opening a Tropical Tea garden in the west of England during 2000 and we have seen in extreme cases some quite unlikely palms survive including Caryota giga and Dypsis decipiens but these are exceptions. There will always be collectors who want to give different things a try but our advice is stick with the tried and tested success stories until new ones are discovered. Recently we have had a lot of success with Livsitona nitida and decipiens and also the more robust variety of roman known as the Silver Queen.

[PalmGuyWC]

Andy,

I keep hearing about the Silver Queen, and I wonder if it's been cold tested and how it compairs in cold hardiness with a "regular" Queen?  Also, does it have a different apperance?

One of my Queen palms seems to fit the general discription, but it was planted many years ago before the Silver Queen was mentioned in horticulture.

Mine has not grown as tall as the other Queens, which I find desirable, and it has a full head of fronds that have a nice arch to them.  It has silver highlights on the base of the petiols and the spathe is silver until it starts to expand and then open.  Some of the fronds have a yellow stripe on the bottom of the petiole and I've even noticed a slight variegation on a few of the fronds.  It's my most beautiful and robust Queen and it's pollen is used in a lot of the hybrid crosses.

We find in our climate, that Jubaea goes through the seed cycle in about 4 or 5 months from pollination to maturity, the Butias take longer, and the Queens take over a year.  The Jubaea and Butias all seem to ripen at once where the Queens ripen sporadically over a much longer period.

Dick

[Bilbo]

Benn, I tried a Silver Queen but it was a rather weedy specimen and failed.

Not being a quitter I got a big un and had to plant it quick in September as I was due at the DR Bi in October.

It cost £400.00 and I paid the 2  guys £20.00 each.

I didnt do deep earth anchor guying as I would do normally for clients as there was no time for having the cables measured and tensioner checked etc (apologies for scaper speak).

So I put 3 paving slabs over the rootball area to help hold it down.

Anyone the big un is 18`+ and mature but I go more by trunk dia than height.

My pal Pete on a visit couldnt see it at first until I told him to look up!

The Queen laughed its way thro our winter and is looking real good.

We shall see how it does this year because knowing its responsiveness I am thinking of a dose of one of my "specials" which is NPK and micro`s but the N is real high ie. it would fry a young palm!

Regardez

Juan

[Palmtrader]

Dick,  The Silver Queen or var. litoralis has been the subject of much debate in recent years on most of the forums and I can only speak from my own experience growing these alongside standard romans. Some of the characteristics you mentioned I have not noticed yet in my silvers but they most definately form a more robust trunk and thicker canopy even from a young age and have endured extreme lows here in Spain ( -10 ) and the UK where the romans have failed.

I continue to get critisised for distributing these all over Europe but their success speaks for itself, we even have them surviving and growing in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It sounds to me like you have the real thing and I am pleased to hear of your success with it.

[Nigel]

Dick, did you ever see one like this........ me hugging it for scale.

[Gaston in Argentina]

(Nigel @ Feb. 14 2007,11:24)

QUOTE

Dick, did you ever see one like this........ me hugging it for scale.

Nigel.

I have never seen a queen palms like those in your picture.-

[PalmGuyWC]

Nigel,

Wow!  No, I don't think I've ever seen one with such a thick trunk. Is that growing in habitat?  There is a variety of Queen palms growing in Santa Barbara CA, that has thick trunks.  I believe it was introduced many years ago by Otto Martins, a nurserman and a former president of the Palm Society. He called it var. Santa Catarina.  I have one and it does have a rather thick trunk, but it seems no more cold hardy than the others. It was damaged just like the others in the bad freeze of 1989/90.  That year all my queens were cut back to two or three center fronds, but they all recovered, but with some trunk damage. In many other areas around me they did not survive, or else they slowly died 3 or 4 years later.  Actually, the trunk damage didn't show up until 5 or 6 years later when the outside begain to sluff off, but only on one side.....the west side where the cold came from.

It's too bad the big box stores like Home Depot don't find a supplier of the Silver Queen.  They might save a lot of money in the long run from replacing palms in marginal areas.

Dick

[Nigel]

Dick this one is from the coldest place in Brazil, ie Santa Caterina on the tablelands. You can see I am right on top of the highest hill. There is quite a few frosts up there in winter,and its rarely reaches 30C in summer. Most of the time the sky seems to be grey.

Therefore your observation is spot on re the fat trunk american ones.

Alberto knows these trees very well, he has written about them before on here.

Note the closeness of the leaf scars......

Gaston, the nursery owner kept insisting its a different species , and it is really quite different to a standard queen, but a queen it surely is.

[gsn]

(Nigel @ Feb. 14 2007,13:13)

QUOTE

Dick this one is from the coldest place in Brazil, ie Santa Caterina on the tablelands. Gaston, the nursery owner kept insisting its a different species , and it is really quite different to a standard queen, but a queen it surely is.

Nigel,,

So are you saying the Silver queen,and the Santa Catarina,are the same palm?

I have noticed this variation here in central Florida,and have collected seeds from both. The regular queens have an american football shape,while these others have round shaped seed very similar to butia in shape, only larger.

Also the regular queen seems to have more weeping fronds  (crown)which hold there green color way past horizontal. Where the other form  (Santa Catarina, Silver?)seems  to be much stouter and more upright in the crown,rarely holding any green fronds past horizontal!

I also have noticed no difference in cold hardiness!

[Nigel]

(gsn @ Feb. 14 2007,14:07)

QUOTE

So are you saying the Silver queen,and the Santa Catarina,are the same palm?

I am just saying what I saw !

The large fat trunk queens grow both on the tablelands and lower down so its possible there is considerable variablity in frost hardiness.

[gsn]

Nigel,

Thanks for the observation. Just so I'm clear ,the one you are standing under is what you are calling a Silver queen ,right?

Have you seen seed from  silver queen palms,and if so did it match my description,round rather than football shaped(american)?

Also have you seen seed from those in santa catarina,did you collect any seed from the one you are standing under, or one like it?

thanks

[Nigel]

Scott the one I am standing under is a santa caterina queen, it could well be a silver queen, but there are so many different stories about silver queens who knows what one really is. Its the stuff of legends.

The seeds from these are bigger than average and quite rounded.

[Paul S]

Nigel - are the Santa Caterina queens the same as the Parana queens?......

[Nigel]

Paul,they are the same, and the place this pic was taken was very close to the parana border.

This particular tree was growing adjacent to the largest wild population of Butia eriospathas I saw anywhere.

This was the view at a 90 degree angle to the shot of the queen palm.

Dotted between the Butias are Araucarias and more majestic queens but its not easy to pick them out in the picture.

[Walter John]

That's a great shot.

[Alberto]

Yes this queens from tableland are really fat!

This summer I saw a butyagrus originated on the tablelands (crossed with a B.eriospatha) and the trunk was VERY but VERY fat,like a big Roystonea trunk!

I have no pics of this one.Maybe Nigel,because he probably also saw it....

  Here you can see a fat queen planted with some ´´normal´´ queens:Look at the middle of this fat queen!!:

http://thumb16.webshots.net/s....MG]

 There are a lot of queens growing at the frost free regions near the sea of Santa Catarina ,but I bet that this queens from the frosty tablelands of south Brazil,growing in araucaria forests with Butia eriospatha (and Trithrinax acanthocoma in other places) are the hardiest of all the queen palms!

[Nigel]

(Alberto @ Feb. 14 2007,20:24)

QUOTE

Yes this queens from tableland are really fat!

This summer I saw a butyagrus originated on the tablelands (crossed with a B.eriospatha) and the trunk was VERY but VERY fat,like a big Roystonea trunk!

I have no pics of this one.Maybe Nigel,because he probably also saw it....

 

Alberto, we are buying those trees !

Here is one we bought last year from same nursery. It is now enjoying life in a French garden on the coast.

Note spade at foot of tree for scale !!!!

[Neofolis]

Benn, there are a few extreme species that I intend to try outside when they are large enough.  Dypsis onilahensis and albofarinosa amongst others. but even though I am in the Southwest, I think they will be hard pushed to survive, let alone grow.

On the Cornwall south coast, they seem to be able to get many species to survive, as they have a virtually frost free climate, but they have even less summer heat than the rest of Southern England, so it is still a very limiting climate.  If I lived in Cornwall, I would be tempted to try many of the cloud forest or montane forest species, which although not necessarily cold tolerant, don't see a great deal of heat in habitat.

[Nigel]

(Neofolis @ Feb. 15 2007,05:11)

QUOTE

On the Cornwall south coast, they seem to be able to get many species to survive, as they have a virtually frost free climate, but they have even less summer heat than the rest of Southern England, so it is still a very limiting climate.

Corey, that is a common misconception of `heat`.

Heat is not the daytime high but the daytime average.

Cornwall has one of the highest levels of `heat` in the country, because the night time temperatures stay much higher than inland. In summer the plants can grow in a temperature band much narrower than the southeast  but with similar average heat, the result is less stress and a much higher growth rate.

The main limiting factor in Cornwall is the wind, you can only grow stuff if you have a sheltered location because the wind will destroy everything.

[Neofolis]

Thanks Nigel.  I was working on the assumption that a minimum temperature was required to stimulate growth and the Southeast would see that temperature more often, but depending on how low that minimum temperature is, Cornwall has, by far, the longer growing season.

[Kelern]

Nigel Feb. 15 2007,05:33

Cornwall has one of the highest levels of `heat` in the country, because the night time temperatures stay much higher than inland.

I can see that on my palms, they grow faster during warm nightime (Above 60°F/15°C) even if the days are cool than during cold night (under 54°F/12°C) with average daytime temperature.

Is there anyplace where I can buy seeds or plants of Syagrus romanz. from the frosty highlands of Santa Catarina? Nigel, do you sell some of them?

[Nigel]

Kelern, PM me, I have a handful of seedlings I was bringing on from my trip a year ago.

[Bennz]

The heat thing has bothered me for a while, I have had some difficulty identifying when my palms are growing fastest. Most of the time they grow at an incredibly slow rate. Usually planting them and ignoring them is best, when you come back after a couple years and see a reasonable palm its good. I've got a line of bangalow palms which I have never watered or fertilised, I have a picture from 2003 with them about 500mm high to the top of tallest leaf. Now some of them have almost 2m of trunk to the base of the crownshaft. They would never have grown that fast if I had watched them. The point being that for me at least, the hottest period of the year is also often the dryest, and growth rates are not necessarily temperature related. There is much more too it than that.

No UK people trialing Ceroxylon?

My name is Ben, btw, originally a mistype for 'Ben in NZ', but Bennz seemed ok at the time.

Ben

[Nigel]

Ben, you are correct about water, the plant needs to control its water loss and it can only do that in hot dry conditions by closing its stomata during the day at the expense of photosynthesising.

The answer is to irrigate well so that the plant can continue to max out on photosynthesis !

[Neofolis]

Ben, I definitely find photos helpful for illustrating growth.  Whilst I can observe growth on a visual basis, it seems frustratingly slow without a longer term comparison.  I take a photo of each of my plants every month, so I can clearly see when growth is faster or slower and when looking at comparisons 6 months or more apart it is usually pleasantly surprising.  For me the most frustrating part is that I have no means of planting my palms in the ground and re-potting my outside palms can result in an entire season's growth lost while it re-establishes.

I think Phil Markey may have tried some Ceroxylons.  Unfortunately I don't see the list of palms that he has trialed on his website anymore.  There are certainly other high altitude palms that people are trying in the UK, like Geonoma schottiana.

[Bilbo]

ER . . . Corey is that Phil the same guy known as " Phil no nothing?"

Regardez

Juan

[Bilbo]

Nigel, the Butias are on their way and more if you want em!

Great to se you specialise in this Family as they are grrreat for our climate.

My big Queen is laughing at the "winter" and just maybe nature will take its course if she flowers.

Bees and insects love Butias as you know so future seeds could just be variable . . .

Regardez

and mucho love to Jane

Juan

[Nigel]

(Neofolis @ Feb. 16 2007,04:20)

QUOTE

Ben, I definitely find photos helpful for illustrating growth.  Whilst I can observe growth on a visual basis, it seems frustratingly slow without a longer term comparison.  I take a photo of each of my plants every month, so I can clearly see when growth is faster or slower and when looking at comparisons 6 months or more apart it is usually pleasantly surprising.  For me the most frustrating part is that I have no means of planting my palms in the ground and re-potting my outside palms can result in an entire season's growth lost while it re-establishes.

I think Phil Markey may have tried some Ceroxylons.  Unfortunately I don't see the list of palms that he has trialed on his website anymore.  There are certainly other high altitude palms that people are trying in the UK, like Geonoma schottiana.

Corey, I tried ceroxylons but found them very hard to grow here, I think its another palm on the list of those that detest hard water, coupled with the fact they are manna for every insect pest known to palms.

There is a magnificent specimen in the temperate house at kew , although at the rate its growing its life must almost be up.

They are certainly worth persevering with if somebody can find some reasonable size specimens.

[Paul S]

I had a C. alpinum of a 'reasonable' size (it was in a 5ltr pot and needed moving on) die on me last winter through cold.  It had gone through two other winters ok outside, and I was almost getting interested in it....  but I think there are better ceroxylons to try than alpinum.  I believe Neil has planted one or two out at Tremenheere, Nigel.

[Nigel]

Personally I would like to try a big quindiuense here, that has to be the one with most potential...unless somebody knows better ?

[Bennz]

The main reason I am interested in Ceroxylon in UK is becasue of how they grow here in NZ. They have a very bad rep., and although there are good specimens like the two in the picture below at Dick Endts place, most growers find them very hard to keep alive. I've heard it said that one mature tree from 1000 seeds is very good going.

The interesting thing is that all these comments come from growers in NZs 'palm belt', the warmish humid coastal areas from 34 to 37.5S. South of this area (and particularly here on east coast) the climate changes significantly, with wider diurnal temps and importantly cool nights.  While people in Whangarei and Auckland sit outside all night long in mild summer evenings, down here when the sun goes down, so does the temp. Even in the middle of summer a night time low of 20C or above is extremely uncommon.

I have never lost a Ceroxylon to anything except neglect, and occaisonally rats at germination. Mine just seem to grow quite well, I have really only realised their potential in the last year or so. Malcolm Thomas from the coast about 300kms north of me got  100 or so C. ventricosoum seeds a few years ago. His germinated well and all  died. Mine germinated well and are now ready for planting out.

I strongly suspect I am just past the barrier point of night time temperatures for these palms to grow happily. It seems that the point of human comfort at night is too hot for them!

I have a done a heat trial  with seedlings, and my early obsevations are that C. quindiuense seedlings die quickly with daytime temps around 30C, while  alpinum grow a little. Both species grow better under shade structure with day temps around 20-25C.  C. quindiuense looks like a good bet for my cool essentially frost-free climate.

Possibly they might like a little more heat during the day than UK winters will provide, and they may like to grow year around rather than seasonally like Butia etc. I have heard the figure 10C thrown around a bit, both for daytime minimum temp and night time maximum.

Ben

Ceroxylon at Dick Endts place showing they can be grown in Auckland, now trunking at about 1-2m  trunk  height per year. I'm  waiting for  palms like this here!!

[Neofolis]

(Nigel @ Feb. 16 2007,11:58)

QUOTE

I think its another palm on the list of those that detest hard water

From my recent experience, everything I have seems to detest hard water.  I've decided to stop using my foggers, because the build up of calcium on the leaves is horrendous and I would imagine will prohibit photosynthesis.  Many of the affected leaves are now turning brown and crispy as well.  I'm fairly sure they will cope with the lower humidity better than the hard water.

(Bilbo @ Feb. 16 2007,11:13)

QUOTE

ER . . . Corey is that Phil the same guy known as " Phil no nothing?"

I assume you are not a fan, he has always come across as very knowledgable to me and certainly displays a very keen interest.

[AJQ]

I have Juania australis growing here in Norin Iron, through it's 3rd winter now. Cold Temps don't seem to effect it much but it gets a bit of a battering from the wind.

I also have Rhopalostylis sapida growing in the ground and this is it's 2nd winter. It has done far, far better than the other 2, which are also outside but in their pots.

Livistona decipiens is also an excellent Palm for Norin Iron.

I think that Arenga engleri is also a good Palm providing you can get one that is a decent size AND acclimatised to the sun, coz they sure do Fry very quickly, even under shade cloth.

I have 2 Silver Queens, both are alive but one has had Zero growth last year, so not very hopeful. The second as started to grow again even through this 2nd winter but very, very slowly. I think that if you can get one with a larger rootball then that may be a better bet. I am quite hopeful on the second one and once the roots get established I think that it should actually do quite well.

Regards Andy.

[SouthSeaNate]

Ben,

Many enthusiasts are starting to try & grow more species & some (like me) are really pushing it with what they are trying, but with some pleasing results.

I have in my tiny yard on the south coast the following:

Archontophoenix cunninghamiana

Juania australis

Butyagrus

Syagrus "Silver Queen"

Phoenix roebellenii

Phoenix canariensis

Rhopalostylis sapida

Rhopalostylis baurii

Howea forsteriana

Livistona australis

Livistona chinensis

Chamaedorea elegans

Chamaedorea radicalis

Trachycarpus fortunei

Trachycarpus latisectus

Trachycarpus martianus

Chamaerops humilis

Washingtonia robusta

Many of these have been growing outdoors for 4/5 years now & some have really surprised me! I also have a Hawaiian tree fern (Cibotium glaucum) planted out & Schleferra arbiorcola (not sure of the correct spelling!). The lowest temperature here this winter (so far) still stands at stated in my signature.

Also as in the other post about the first UK Butia setting viable seed, Phoenix canariensis planted near to the seafront 10 years ago in Southsea (where I live & one can be seen in my avatar pic) have also set seed. Again this is apparently a UK first & the seed IS viable as one has germinated!

With global warming & maturing palms I think the landscape of the UK will look more & more "tropical" over the coming years...

Nate

[AJQ]

Nate, how did you acclimatise your Howea forsteriana?

What size was it when you planted it?

I have found they are really sensitive to the Sun and mine fried big time  a couple of years ago. If I can get one acclimatised to the sun I may well try one again.

Regards Andy.

[Alberto]

(SouthSeaNate @ Feb. 17 2007,15:11)

QUOTE

Ben,

Many enthusiasts are starting to try & grow more species & some (like me) are really pushing it with what they are trying, but with some pleasing results.

I have in my tiny yard on the south coast the following:

******Howea forsteriana*******

Many of these have been growing outdoors for 4/5 years now & some have really surprised me!

Are you growing Howea forsteriana outside?

I bought 2 pots with triple Howeas planted in it. One pot I am growing inside . The other I was thinking to plant outside but I am not sure if Howeas will have a chance in my climate...Maybe under a dense canopy...?...?...?

 The question is: ´´How hardy are Howeas?``

BTW I have all the palms you have mentioned except Juania australis (I´ll try this someday!)

[Nigel]

Alberto, I reckon Howea would grow a treat in your little rainforest preserve under the canopy.

[Paul S]

I had a Howea come back - slowly - after a complete defoliation at -7C.  

I had it in my polytunnel heated using a butane space heater and that was year I discovered that butane freezes solid... I now use propane.  Anyway, I'm not sure it would like that kind of temperature every year...