MAJOR CHANGES FOR PALMTALK ????? PLEASE READ AND HEED

[MattyB]

So now I've lost important contact information for people that were in my PMs. I tried to start threads reaching outto tthese people so they have my contact info again and those threads are now deleted. Sheesh, ips, dictatorship much?

[Jonathan]

The Board really needs to see sincere, common sense comments like Cindy's above.

However, I see a lot of false accusations, such as some board members not having email access, and a mountain of misinformation being spewed here on PT. I'm still traveling, but when I get back I'll take the time to help set the story straight. (slap you around a little!!)

I hear the Board is "getting the message" but a workable solution is not yet in hand. With Dean and Len on point for this, I feel confident a reasonable resolution will materialize.

It is really good to see how many of you really value PalmTalk, just as I do.

And special thanks to Peter/sur4z, Lee, and David/Alicehunter for nominating me, I am deeply appreciative that you stepped up for me.

Cheers,

Kim

Kim,

It's true that we need to take a considered view on whats happening here, but it's difficult to keep level headed and cool in the face of arrogant disregard.

Last night I sent a PM to another Australian member asking him to consider himself for the board nominations, I woke up this morning to find a reply PM, politely declining for numerous personal reasons, including the following :

"The biggest obstacle currently is the cost to attend the BOD meetings and Biennials...as somebody on PT said, it is only the wealthy (generally) who nominate as most people can't afford it".

Thats not surprising. What is surprising is that I can no longer contact this member to thank him for his reply or to ask advice about other potential nominations I have in mind.

As a paid up member of the IPS for the last five years, I've got to say that this is an act of betrayal and cowardice on behalf of the board.

I suspect that forcing Dean to close down PM's so abruptly is an act of self preservation on the behalf of a BOD that is faced with a potential groundswell against it.

This act essentially strips members of the ability to contact one another freely and I would argue that it undermines democratic principles by disenfranchising the general membership of the society.

The really depressing part of all this for me is that I fully support the work that the IPS does in regards to funding research, conservation, etc, and enjoy reading the magazine, including online back issues.

I just dont understand why there has to be a void between science and hobby - the two streams of interest should be mutually supportive not antagonistic.

The current board obviously has little understanding of what motivates a large percentage of its membership to join in the first place. Without renewal the society might go the way of Paschalococos disperta.

The board will get emails from me, but they won't get my vote. The only question left is how do we get rid of these charming individuals now that we can't contact each other?

I dont want to quit the IPS but nor can I tolerate tryranny.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[MattyB]

Well said Jonathan.

[DoomsDave]

I just sent the BOD a civil - but pointed message.

I'll advise of what's said here, unless Dean would like another thread.

[Cindy Adair]

Communication is happening. I don't feel comfortable sharing specifics, but stay tuned. As we are allowed we will post.

[MattyB]

Thanks for the encouraging update.

Please advise them, if they don't already know:

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/39120-removing-our-photos/#entry605880

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

The Board really needs to see sincere, common sense comments like Cindy's above.

However, I see a lot of false accusations, such as some board members not having email access, and a mountain of misinformation being spewed here on PT. I'm still traveling, but when I get back I'll take the time to help set the story straight. (slap you around a little!!)

I hear the Board is "getting the message" but a workable solution is not yet in hand. With Dean and Len on point for this, I feel confident a reasonable resolution will materialize.

It is really good to see how many of you really value PalmTalk, just as I do.

And special thanks to Peter/sur4z, Lee, and David/Alicehunter for nominating me, I am deeply appreciative that you stepped up for me.

Cheers,

Kim

Kim,

It's true that we need to take a considered view on whats happening here, but it's difficult to keep level headed and cool in the face of arrogant disregard.

Last night I sent a PM to another Australian member asking him to consider himself for the board nominations, I woke up this morning to find a reply PM, politely declining for numerous personal reasons, including the following :

"The biggest obstacle currently is the cost to attend the BOD meetings and Biennials...as somebody on PT said, it is only the wealthy (generally) who nominate as most people can't afford it".

Thats not surprising. What is surprising is that I can no longer contact this member to thank him for his reply or to ask advice about other potential nominations I have in mind.

As a paid up member of the IPS for the last five years, I've got to say that this is an act of betrayal and cowardice on behalf of the board.

I suspect that forcing Dean to close down PM's so abruptly is an act of self preservation on the behalf of a BOD that is faced with a potential groundswell against it.

This act essentially strips members of the ability to contact one another freely and I would argue that it undermines democratic principles by disenfranchising the general membership of the society.

The really depressing part of all this for me is that I fully support the work that the IPS does in regards to funding research, conservation, etc, and enjoy reading the magazine, including online back issues.

I just dont understand why there has to be a void between science and hobby - the two streams of interest should be mutually supportive not antagonistic.

The current board obviously has little understanding of what motivates a large percentage of its membership to join in the first place. Without renewal the society might go the way of Paschalococos disperta.

The board will get emails from me, but they won't get my vote. The only question left is how do we get rid of these charming individuals now that we can't contact each other?

I dont want to quit the IPS but nor can I tolerate tryranny.

Cheers,

Jonathan

well said! Meanwhile we can use Facebook and PalmPedia to organize and network to figure out how to reform the IPS. VIVA LA REVOLUCION!

[KPL]

I, Karolyn do not know how to nominate anyone at this time. If any of you know how to do that, please advise. I thought that was not going to happen until November.

Yes, I do not post often, but I do log in often.

And yes, please again understand, it seems like PMs are at risk not Palm Talk.

You may not like that, but more talk is going on about PT being at risk.

MAKE it a great day!

Karolyn

[Cindy Adair]

Matt, I am willing to share that some at the highest level now know about the proposals to delete photos.

I do not know if they have seen the thread, but they have been informed of its general content without any names attached.

I continue to encourage patience. Waiting is hard for all of us, but I think that's the best course for the moment.

[PALM MOD]

RELAX - ALL IS WELL

READ MY LATEST PINNED TOPIC

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Thanks Dean. Nice to hear PMs are back.

[PALM MOD]

I am going to close this and let it work it's way down and out of sight.

[dalmatiansoap]

Be assured, I am acting on your behalf to try and salvage the situation. You have no idea how much info that I depended on to moderate users that I no longer have access to. To all those who said losing PMs would be no big deal - think again.

No doubt about it!

One more, just to make clear, is PM option returned for 30 days test period or for permanent? Just to save some datas

[NApalm]

What a change of heart in such a short period. Especially as all the directors would have just returned home. Looks like they're running scared. All this talk off taking their prized seats on the board! Looks like they've awoken the sleeping giant that is palmtalk.

[doranakandawatta]

It would be a very good idea for the PalmTalk membership (IPS or not) to become more educated about the relationship between the IPS and PalmTalk. You will find a lot of information in the top forum, IPS - International Palm Society. Minutes from the board meeting will be posted there when they become available, and the financial statement for the IPS will be published in Palms at some future date.

We have a nice little palm playground here; while it is free for anyone to use, it is not FREE. The IPS will spend $11,200 on PalmTalk in 2014. This is partially offset by advertising revenue, so far from a single source, of $1,900. In 2012 advertising revenue was $4,000, but some have elected not to renew. You will recall the PalmTalk fundraiser in January 2013, which was very successful, raising about $1,900 in donations, plus additional funds from book sales, new memberships, and early renewals, bringing the total closer to $4,800.

As a Director on the Board, I take the position that PalmTalk is the best advertising for the IPS that money can buy. I also take the position that PalmTalk does an extraordinarily good job of fulfilling the Education role for the IPS Mission Statement. I also take the position that PalmTalk is the very best way to make the IPS truly international. I am only one voice on the Board, and while there are several others with similar opinions, we are in the minority, sad to say.

In the last election, even with a contested election for one Directorship, there were under 100 votes cast. If you want to be part of the solution, please, vote for the candidates who participate on PalmTalk. We have tremendous strength here, but it goes untapped. Your vote can really, truly make a difference.

It is not good enough to participate here and ignore the organization that supports PalmTalk. In the IPS forum, (top of main page) I described my work on the Board and asked for nomination from you, the PalmTalk membership. While several people thanked me for my service not a single person has offered to nominate me. Apathy will not help PalmTalk to survive. Please participate in the Board selection process, don't think someone else is going to do it for you. It is all in your hands.

New IPS members and foreign langage speaking people may need some information, how can we ( IPS members) nominate you and vote?

Would you guide us?

Many thanks

Phillippe

[sarasota alex]

I was out traveling last week and missed most of the emotional roller-coaster. The first post I read was Dean's "We are back to normal" and it took me most of the night to catch up to what was going on.

I'm glad it's all over and the PM is back. I also want to thank Dean for everything he's done and is doing for our forum and most importantly for his leadership that made this forum what it is. I would like to ask everyone not to delete your photos or do anything else drastic like that.

Here is my share of positive thoughts: Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT (great Happy Gilmore example joe_OC) it couldn't have been all or nearly all of the 20 people who voted to take away the PM. I think for most of them it was an unfortunate uninformed decision. The one they changed once more information was provided. I know some of these people and they are good people and they care.

Having said when I vote, a major decision factor for me would be what a person thinks of PalmTalk.

There is a concern that I have however. I want to make sure that our new leadership doesn't overreact and swing the pendulum the other way and do anything to hurt the scientific research funds and the magazine. We can't loose sight of how important those things are too. I may be the minority, but I basically read Palms from cover to cover every 3 months.

[palmislandRandy]

(appropriate emoticon)

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I was out traveling last week and missed most of the emotional roller-coaster. The first post I read was Dean's "We are back to normal" and it took me most of the night to catch up to what was going on.

I'm glad it's all over and the PM is back. I also want to thank Dean for everything he's done and is doing for our forum and most importantly for his leadership that made this forum what it is. I would like to ask everyone not to delete your photos or do anything else drastic like that.

Here is my share of positive thoughts: Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT (great Happy Gilmore example joe_OC) it couldn't have been all or nearly all of the 20 people who voted to take away the PM. I think for most of them it was an unfortunate uninformed decision. The one they changed once more information was provided. I know some of these people and they are good people and they care.

Having said when I vote, a major decision factor for me would be what a person thinks of PalmTalk.

There is a concern that I have however. I want to make sure that our new leadership doesn't overreact and swing the pendulum the other way and do anything to hurt the scientific research funds and the magazine. We can't loose sight of how important those things are too. I may be the minority, but I basically read Palms from cover to cover every 3 months.

Can you explain what this means: "Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT".

Why in the world would any academic or member from the scientific community want some sort of exclusivity? This makes no sense. Part of working in academia and within the scientific community is the necessity for outreach to lay people so that they properly understand the work that's being done. This helps with both IPS based and non-IPS based academic funding.

Personally, I'd like to see PalmTalk have more of a focus on the importance of palms in the field of research, for example biodiversity and ethnobotany, not just palms in horticulture. The thing is, unless the segment of the IPS involved within the Scientific community gets involved with PalmTalk, this forum has little chance to spark the interests of folks other than in the context of gardening.

Why isn't more infomation posted here about the results of IPS funded palm trips? What about sparking discussion related to matters published in the "Palms" journal.

[sarasota alex]

I was out traveling last week and missed most of the emotional roller-coaster. The first post I read was Dean's "We are back to normal" and it took me most of the night to catch up to what was going on.

I'm glad it's all over and the PM is back. I also want to thank Dean for everything he's done and is doing for our forum and most importantly for his leadership that made this forum what it is. I would like to ask everyone not to delete your photos or do anything else drastic like that.

Here is my share of positive thoughts: Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT (great Happy Gilmore example joe_OC) it couldn't have been all or nearly all of the 20 people who voted to take away the PM. I think for most of them it was an unfortunate uninformed decision. The one they changed once more information was provided. I know some of these people and they are good people and they care.

Having said when I vote, a major decision factor for me would be what a person thinks of PalmTalk.

There is a concern that I have however. I want to make sure that our new leadership doesn't overreact and swing the pendulum the other way and do anything to hurt the scientific research funds and the magazine. We can't loose sight of how important those things are too. I may be the minority, but I basically read Palms from cover to cover every 3 months.

Can you explain what this means: "Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT".

Why in the world would any academic or member from the scientific community want some sort of exclusivity? This makes no sense. Part of working in academia and within the scientific community is the necessity for outreach to lay people so that they properly understand the work that's being done. This helps with both IPS based and non-IPS based academic funding.

Personally, I'd like to see PalmTalk have more of a focus on the importance of palms in the field of research, for example biodiversity and ethnobotany, not just palms in horticulture. The thing is, unless the segment of the IPS involved within the Scientific community gets involved with PalmTalk, this forum has little chance to spark the interests of folks other than in the context of gardening.

Why isn't more infomation posted here about the results of IPS funded palm trips? What about sparking discussion related to matters published in the "Palms" journal.

First of all there are only 3 scientists on the BoD. I know one of them personally and the other two by reputation. In my mind they are definitely in the "they are good people and they care" category, even if I didn't specifically implied that. Multiple other people I know or know of that are also there. There are people however that I heard are elitists on the Board.

One of the reasons that I'm into the science of palms is the friendliness and the accessibility of the palm botanical community. From what I've seen in other sciences however, that is far from norm.

What I don't understand is - why are you asking me that question? A little misdirected. All I'm saying is - some of our Directors seem to be like that, and you are asking me (with a hint of aggression) to explain their behavior.

[sarasota alex]

Oh and there is an article in the latest Palms on the palms of Southern Cameroon, that was an IPS sponsored trip. Would love to discuss it.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

In Florida, we have an Agricultural Extension. All states in the USA have their own version. There is a research aspect to it and an extension aspect, bringing that research to the general public. In IPS, we have scientific studies that are contributed to (that would be analogous to the research scientists) and we have the Palm Journal and Palm Talk (both of which would be like the extension agents). We need both research and extension.

As far as Directors being caring, concerned people, yes we have some of them. As far as elitist Directors wanting more exclusivity, I can't say for sure as who can say what is in a man's heart (or a woman's), but having met them, that is the distinct impression that I get from some of them.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I was out traveling last week and missed most of the emotional roller-coaster. The first post I read was Dean's "We are back to normal" and it took me most of the night to catch up to what was going on.

I'm glad it's all over and the PM is back. I also want to thank Dean for everything he's done and is doing for our forum and most importantly for his leadership that made this forum what it is. I would like to ask everyone not to delete your photos or do anything else drastic like that.

Here is my share of positive thoughts: Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT (great Happy Gilmore example joe_OC) it couldn't have been all or nearly all of the 20 people who voted to take away the PM. I think for most of them it was an unfortunate uninformed decision. The one they changed once more information was provided. I know some of these people and they are good people and they care.

Having said when I vote, a major decision factor for me would be what a person thinks of PalmTalk.

There is a concern that I have however. I want to make sure that our new leadership doesn't overreact and swing the pendulum the other way and do anything to hurt the scientific research funds and the magazine. We can't loose sight of how important those things are too. I may be the minority, but I basically read Palms from cover to cover every 3 months.

Can you explain what this means: "Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT".

Why in the world would any academic or member from the scientific community want some sort of exclusivity? This makes no sense. Part of working in academia and within the scientific community is the necessity for outreach to lay people so that they properly understand the work that's being done. This helps with both IPS based and non-IPS based academic funding.

Personally, I'd like to see PalmTalk have more of a focus on the importance of palms in the field of research, for example biodiversity and ethnobotany, not just palms in horticulture. The thing is, unless the segment of the IPS involved within the Scientific community gets involved with PalmTalk, this forum has little chance to spark the interests of folks other than in the context of gardening.

Why isn't more infomation posted here about the results of IPS funded palm trips? What about sparking discussion related to matters published in the "Palms" journal.

First of all there are only 3 scientists on the BoD. I know one of them personally and the other two by reputation. In my mind they are definitely in the "they are good people and they care" category, even if I didn't specifically implied that. Multiple other people I know or know of that are also there. There are people however that I heard are elitists on the Board.

One of the reasons that I'm into the science of palms is the friendliness and the accessibility of the palm botanical community. From what I've seen in other sciences however, that is far from norm.

What I don't understand is - why are you asking me that question? A little misdirected. All I'm saying is - some of our Directors seem to be like that, and you are asking me (with a hint of aggression) to explain their behavior.

How in the world do you interpret what i said as hostile?

[Gonzer]

This is better than 'As The World Turns'.

Beautiful day to be outside workin' in the yard.

[PALM MOD]

I had said I was going to close this and forgot - and the result is some provocative thought. So, I'll just let the stream of consciousness continue, while adding a comment or two.

I have always seen a dichotomy in the IPS between the science and the hobby - between the scientists and the gardeners. And it's funny - and someone correct me if I am wrong - but they don't seem to overlap near as much as they should. How many of the scientists have an extensive garden. And how many gardeners spend time at a microscope or analyzing DNA?

And there has definitely been a separation of the IPS proper and PT - perhaps reflecting the above.

For a strong organization (which is what everyone wants) these two "sides" need to come more closely together. And in fact, both need each other equally. If the gardeners weren't so passionate about their palms, the scientists would lose major interest in and support for their activities. And look at the Tahina story for a lesson in how PT helped discover not only a new palm, but a new genus. And the gardeners really want to know everything these scientists discover about identification, culture, history, etc.

I don't wish to comment on Directors. I will only say that it appears as if PT could be a major player in determining the makeup of the BOD. Time will tell. But that is up to us. And as I have said - there will be a new forum started soon dealing with the elections where all this can be discussed and perhaps be determined.

[Jonathan]

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, I really quite enjoy reading the technical articles in Palms - taxonomy, new discoveries, etc. even if a percentage of it flies way over my head!

Sometimes theres valuable information about climates, habitats, general growing conditions that might help inform us how to grow certain difficult species properly, maybe even which species to grow.

It's a pity that some of our scientist friends are not inclined to hop on PT and have a chat with us about their latest exploits every now and them - bring us all a bit closer together, so to speak.

Maybe we could have a special Q&A forum - ask an expert - with a thread based on their field of expertise or interest, where they could come out of the closet and share their experience (and photo's) with us.

Now wouldn't that be warm and fuzzy!

These guys go to all kinds of fantastic places that most of us could only dream of, and often with IPS funding, so in a way we've got a vested interest.

Also it would be good therapy for them....

Cheers,

Jonathan

[SanDimas]

Mr Moderator,

For some of us who don't want to spend hours and hours reading

and trying to comprehend whats going on......

Please give us a step by step SUMMARY of what we need to do to keep

PalmTalk running the way it is or even better.

1. Pay IPS membership dues???

2. Vote for BOD?

3. ???

[PALM MOD]

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, I really quite enjoy reading the technical articles in Palms - taxonomy, new discoveries, etc. even if a percentage of it flies way over my head!

Sometimes theres valuable information about climates, habitats, general growing conditions that might help inform us how to grow certain difficult species properly, maybe even which species to grow.

It's a pity that some of our scientist friends are not inclined to hop on PT and have a chat with us about their latest exploits every now and them - bring us all a bit closer together, so to speak.

Maybe we could have a special Q&A forum - ask an expert - with a thread based on their field of expertise or interest, where they could come out of the closet and share their experience (and photo's) with us.

Now wouldn't that be warm and fuzzy!

These guys go to all kinds of fantastic places that most of us could only dream of, and often with IPS funding, so in a way we've got a vested interest.

Also it would be good therapy for them....

Cheers,

Jonathan

I have floated the idea that one of the contingencies of being given a grant would be to do just that. Come on PT and explain what it is that they used IPS money for. And spend a little time discussing it with us and answering some questions. I don't think that would be too much to ask.

[PALM MOD]

Mr Moderator,

For some of us who don't want to spend hours and hours reading

and trying to comprehend whats going on......

Please give us a step by step SUMMARY of what we need to do to keep

PalmTalk running the way it is or even better.

1. Pay IPS membership dues???

2. Vote for BOD?

3. ???

Good idea - but it will take some time and thought. I have the Hawaii Island Palm Society visiting my garden in two weeks, and all this hubbub has me way behind schedule. So there are several things that I intend to follow up on. However, those that can wait are going to have to.

[Jonathan]

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, I really quite enjoy reading the technical articles in Palms - taxonomy, new discoveries, etc. even if a percentage of it flies way over my head!

Sometimes theres valuable information about climates, habitats, general growing conditions that might help inform us how to grow certain difficult species properly, maybe even which species to grow.

It's a pity that some of our scientist friends are not inclined to hop on PT and have a chat with us about their latest exploits every now and them - bring us all a bit closer together, so to speak.

Maybe we could have a special Q&A forum - ask an expert - with a thread based on their field of expertise or interest, where they could come out of the closet and share their experience (and photo's) with us.

Now wouldn't that be warm and fuzzy!

These guys go to all kinds of fantastic places that most of us could only dream of, and often with IPS funding, so in a way we've got a vested interest.

Also it would be good therapy for them....

Cheers,

Jonathan

I have floated the idea that one of the contingencies of being given a grant would be to do just that. Come on PT and explain what it is that they used IPS money for. And spend a little time discussing it with us and answering some questions. I don't think that would be too much to ask.

Dean - thats a very good suggestion.

Not just is it not too much to ask, I even suspect that some of those guys might enjoy being engaged with people genuinly interested in their field of expertise.

There is a perception out there that scientists are generally sociopaths with a reclusive disfunction, but I'm sure thats not always true...I've met some who are quite normal!

We should push this idea hard during the elections.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[sarasota alex]

I was out traveling last week and missed most of the emotional roller-coaster. The first post I read was Dean's "We are back to normal" and it took me most of the night to catch up to what was going on.

I'm glad it's all over and the PM is back. I also want to thank Dean for everything he's done and is doing for our forum and most importantly for his leadership that made this forum what it is. I would like to ask everyone not to delete your photos or do anything else drastic like that.

Here is my share of positive thoughts: Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT (great Happy Gilmore example joe_OC) it couldn't have been all or nearly all of the 20 people who voted to take away the PM. I think for most of them it was an unfortunate uninformed decision. The one they changed once more information was provided. I know some of these people and they are good people and they care.

Having said when I vote, a major decision factor for me would be what a person thinks of PalmTalk.

There is a concern that I have however. I want to make sure that our new leadership doesn't overreact and swing the pendulum the other way and do anything to hurt the scientific research funds and the magazine. We can't loose sight of how important those things are too. I may be the minority, but I basically read Palms from cover to cover every 3 months.

Can you explain what this means: "Although I am sure that we have some Directors that would like more exclusivity brought back to the IPS and look down upon PT".

Why in the world would any academic or member from the scientific community want some sort of exclusivity? This makes no sense. Part of working in academia and within the scientific community is the necessity for outreach to lay people so that they properly understand the work that's being done. This helps with both IPS based and non-IPS based academic funding.

Personally, I'd like to see PalmTalk have more of a focus on the importance of palms in the field of research, for example biodiversity and ethnobotany, not just palms in horticulture. The thing is, unless the segment of the IPS involved within the Scientific community gets involved with PalmTalk, this forum has little chance to spark the interests of folks other than in the context of gardening.

Why isn't more infomation posted here about the results of IPS funded palm trips? What about sparking discussion related to matters published in the "Palms" journal.

First of all there are only 3 scientists on the BoD. I know one of them personally and the other two by reputation. In my mind they are definitely in the "they are good people and they care" category, even if I didn't specifically implied that. Multiple other people I know or know of that are also there. There are people however that I heard are elitists on the Board.

One of the reasons that I'm into the science of palms is the friendliness and the accessibility of the palm botanical community. From what I've seen in other sciences however, that is far from norm.

What I don't understand is - why are you asking me that question? A little misdirected. All I'm saying is - some of our Directors seem to be like that, and you are asking me (with a hint of aggression) to explain their behavior.

How in the world do you interpret what i said as hostile?

Sorry Axel. I overreacted a bit.