Beccariophoenix first experiences in ceroxylon Country

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I thought I'd share a nice summary on how the various beccariophoenix specimens have fared in my cold night climate. Most of you don't have to deal with low to mid 40's until the dead of Winter, but here in the Santa Cruz Mountains, the terrain combined with the cold upwelling from the ocean collaborate to produce some of the coldest Summer nights you will find anywhere below 1,000 feet on the Continental United States. We have seen lows around 42F in the middle of July and August. The good news is that Winter nights in the thermal belts around here don't get that much colder. Some areas in the Mountains collect over 1,000 hours of chill in the Winter (hours between 32F and 45F) but rarely if ever see any freezes. So you'll see old heirloom apples thrive next to avocado and highland tropical palms. The bad news is that some real tropical palms won't grow with the cold nights. I killed a home depot coconut in less than 3 weeks in the middle of July.

We do get plenty of heat during the day, though. I had one day in August swing from 47F in the Morning to 95F by 3PM.

I remember when i lived on the coast in Southern California, 50F was considered cold, and between April and October, anything below 60F at night was almost unheard of. I actually never ever had seen frost before moving the Northern California.

A number of palms are quite slow in this type of climate. But I've had many, many pleasant surprises over the years, and last Spring, I gave the beccariophoenix genus a go here. And what happened?

1) Beccariophoenix alfredii - so far, this palm has more than exceeded all my expectations. I planted five of them of different sizes and literally all of them have taken off gangbuster, completely un-impeeded by the cold nights. If anything, it seems like the cold nights envigorate them. Full sun specimens grow very well, but even my one full shade specimen is going to town. A couple of the smaller ones actually developed a few black spots at one point and one even had a hint of yellowing, but increasing the drip and adding soil acidifiers got rid of the issue. Now all of them look splendid. My observation on these are as follows:

• They are fast
• You can't over-water them, they are rot resistant
• They actually develop roots out of the sides of the base if planted slightly deeper, similar to how trachys behave.
• They really like sandy soil
• They love acidity
• They don't mind shade at all, doesn't seem to slow them down
• They can be moved from a humid reduced light green house to blazing full sun and they won't skip a beat
• They are not drought tolerant - don't be fooled, these grow in riverine habitat, which means wet feet
• They could care less about cold nights

The only other Madagascar plant that I grow that seems to be equally easy is dypsis ambositrae, seesm to have all the same characteristics as the ones I listed above.

2) Beccariophoenix "no Windows"

I bought a 5 gallon from JD Andersen, planted it in fast draining soil on the hillside where there was overhead sprinkler water. It lasted about a month before the spear pulled. It just rotted. I don't know if it was the moisture or the cold nights. All I know is that after two weeks of 85F+ daytime temps, it was a goner. Before that it seemed fine. The soil was definitely wet and saturated.

My gues is that the "no windows" is actually the most drought tolerant of the three, and the one that actually dislikes wet feet. Unlike the alfredii, this palm does not develop roots out of the side of the base, so it can't be planted deep. I may try my luck again but this time planted high with no overhead irrigation. But it's too slow anyway.

3) Beccariophoenix "Windows"

I got 4 of these to try them out in various locations in the garden. The biggest one, a 7 gallon with at least 8 feet leaves went in the ground under the same conditions as the "no windows" one, and I got exactly the same result. The plant has major spear rot and isn't growing much at all. Another 5 gallon that was supposedly Socal acclimated actually dried up, it never actually grew, not even an inch. That leaves me with two Jeff Marcus specimens which both are looking very good and actually growing .I don't hold much hope for this species in our climate, though. They need at least a few months of warm nights to do well. I may be wrong, so I am letting the two survivors grow to see if they will actually grow.

[Xhoniwaters1]

Whats going on with my alfredii? Its growing in full sun, sandy mulched soil, gets regular watering and fertilizer. Looks like a potassium problem maybe?

[Phoenikakias]

Axel, you forgot to describe, how B. a. fares in a hot, sunny dry enviroment. The answer is not well at all! A friend of mine lost one in Athens this summer in the most shady, humid place of his home and I languish to keep mine in an acceptable condition inside the cold frame with filtered sunlight and higher humidity than outdoors during same season. On the contrary it obtains best appearance during winter. So no wonder about your report. In previous respect (heat tolerance) SoCa is not a comparison but rather hot inland.

[sonoranfans]

I have to disagree on drought tolerance of alfredii, but then again mine have developed root systems from being in the ground for 3+ years. Late last summer/ fall we had 60 consecutive days with no rain and my irrigation system broke while I was away. I had somebody hand water some palms, but alfredii wasn't one of them. Yet it came through like a champ. But again, mine have been in the ground for a while. I don't think you can evaluate the drought tolerance of a palm that doesn't have an established root system.

Edited October 14, 2013 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

Whats going on with my alfredii? Its growing in full sun, sandy mulched soil, gets regular watering and fertilizer. Looks like a potassium problem maybe?

Doesn't look too bad to me. I suggest you use a florikan type product(real time release by osmotic membrane) and keep an eye on it. Once the roots establish and you keep it fed that discoloration on the oldest leaves will go away...

[Phoenikakias]

I do not think the key is the developed root system. If you hand water palms regularly there is no such issue. It has imo to do that root system (at least in pot) stops working properly in high temp or that aerial part stops photosynthesizing adequately.

[Xhoniwaters1]

Doesn't look too bad to me. I suggest you use a florikan type product(real time release by osmotic membrane) and keep an eye on it. Once the roots establish and you keep it fed that discoloration on the oldest leaves will go away...

I think I am going to start throwing coffee grounds around the base along with the reg fert and see what that does. It;s growing nice, just some dark spots in the the newer leaves.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have to disagree on drought tolerance of alfredii, but then again mine have developed root systems from being in the ground for 3+ years. Late last summer/ fall we had 60 consecutive days with no rain and my irrigation system broke while I was away. I had somebody hand water some palms, but alfredii wasn't one of them. Yet it came through like a champ. But again, mine have been in the ground for a while. I don't think you can evaluate the drought tolerance of a palm that doesn't have an established root system.

An Alfredii that doesn't get enough water is an unhappy palm. Mine got dark spots from lack of water and rising pH. If yours really went 60 days without water and no access to the water table during low humidity weather, then it's a miracle it looked good after that. So I wonder:

1) How long were you away for? all 60 days?

2) When did you leave? At the beginning of the 60 day period or later?

3) How deep was your water table at the beggining of the 60 days and how deep at the end?

Doesn't look too bad to me. I suggest you use a florikan type product(real time release by osmotic membrane) and keep an eye on it. Once the roots establish and you keep it fed that discoloration on the oldest leaves will go away...

I think I am going to start throwing coffee grounds around the base along with the reg fert and see what that does. It;s growing nice, just some dark spots in the the newer leaves.

That's exactly what mine did. I added slow release iron sulfate and additional irrigation and the problem went away.

[sonoranfans]

I do not think the key is the developed root system. If you hand water palms regularly there is no such issue. It has imo to do that root system (at least in pot) stops working properly in high temp or that aerial part stops photosynthesizing adequately.

Mine are not in a pot. the ability of a palm to withstand drought is partly depth and size of the root system. Alfredii do get deep roots in my sandy soil(I moved one, I had to cut plenty of roots >2' depth).

Axel,

Mine saw about 3 weeks without water as the irrigation system was down that long. We also had drought restrictions so even the irrigation system was only watering 15 mins popup sprinklers(designed for grass) 2x a week when it was working. temps were in the low to mid 80's as high as 88 in the beginning of the drought. The top 3' is sand tapering to sandy clay. I amended with organics around the root ball and mulched on top for 3 years. It was exposed to full western florida sun. the bottom 2 leaves(of 11 leaves) were damaged. I call that drought tolerance, a nearby x jubutyagrus had more damage. IMO, a full root system on an in ground palm is required for a good drought resistance test, not a first year planting or a plant in a pot. And still mine are juvenile palms, some might say drought resistance should be tested on adult palms to really get the picture.

Edited October 14, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Zeeth]

I have to disagree on drought tolerance of alfredii, but then again mine have developed root systems from being in the ground for 3+ years. Late last summer/ fall we had 60 consecutive days with no rain and my irrigation system broke while I was away. I had somebody hand water some palms, but alfredii wasn't one of them. Yet it came through like a champ. But again, mine have been in the ground for a while. I don't think you can evaluate the drought tolerance of a palm that doesn't have an established root system.

I mirror your statement here. These develop a DEEP root system that seems to reach the Florida water table pretty early in life. There's one planted in full sun at the house that I moved away from over a year ago. I visited over summer and the new owners let me check the plants out. They seemed to have no plant knowledge (like most people) and didn't water anything, but the alfredii looked perfect. It was in the ground for a year before we moved, so this was two years in the ground, and one with no water/irrigation or fertilizer and it was taking it the same as a native palm would. In Florida these are as drought tolerant as any palm it seems, though they certainly grow much faster with lots of water!

[DoomsDave]

Axel:

Great report!

Maybe try another couple of no-windows before giving up on them entirely. Heat isn't a problem, though your cool nights could be. I understand they live near the coast, while alfredii live in the highlands. They are slow as lawmakers dropping ludes and swimming in molasses, though.

Alfies definitely like plenty to drink, but, once established also take a drought well. I have a trio that get the outfall from the washer. Others in pots that I forgot about came right back with a bit of a drink.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I do not think the key is the developed root system. If you hand water palms regularly there is no such issue. It has imo to do that root system (at least in pot) stops working properly in high temp or that aerial part stops photosynthesizing adequately.

Mine are not in a pot. the ability of a palm to withstand drought is partly depth and size of the root system. Alfredii do get deep roots in my sandy soil(I moved one, I had to cut plenty of roots >2' depth).

Axel,

Mine saw about 3 weeks without water as the irrigation system was down that long. We also had drought restrictions so even the irrigation system was only watering 15 mins popup sprinklers(designed for grass) 2x a week when it was working. temps were in the low to mid 80's as high as 88 in the beginning of the drought. The top 3' is sand tapering to sandy clay. I amended with organics around the root ball and mulched on top for 3 years. It was exposed to full western florida sun. the bottom 2 leaves(of 11 leaves) were damaged. I call that drought tolerance, a nearby x jubutyagrus had more damage. IMO, a full root system on an in ground palm is required for a good drought resistance test, not a first year planting or a plant in a pot. And still mine are juvenile palms, some might say drought resistance should be tested on adult palms to really get the picture.

OK, now we're getting somewhere! In my initial post I was referring to getting plants established. If you call a plant that can make deep roots "drought tolerant" then yes, these things are most definitely drought tolerant.

[sonoranfans]

I do not think the key is the developed root system. If you hand water palms regularly there is no such issue. It has imo to do that root system (at least in pot) stops working properly in high temp or that aerial part stops photosynthesizing adequately.

Mine are not in a pot. the ability of a palm to withstand drought is partly depth and size of the root system. Alfredii do get deep roots in my sandy soil(I moved one, I had to cut plenty of roots >2' depth).

Axel,

Mine saw about 3 weeks without water as the irrigation system was down that long. We also had drought restrictions so even the irrigation system was only watering 15 mins popup sprinklers(designed for grass) 2x a week when it was working. temps were in the low to mid 80's as high as 88 in the beginning of the drought. The top 3' is sand tapering to sandy clay. I amended with organics around the root ball and mulched on top for 3 years. It was exposed to full western florida sun. the bottom 2 leaves(of 11 leaves) were damaged. I call that drought tolerance, a nearby x jubutyagrus had more damage. IMO, a full root system on an in ground palm is required for a good drought resistance test, not a first year planting or a plant in a pot. And still mine are juvenile palms, some might say drought resistance should be tested on adult palms to really get the picture.

OK, now we're getting somewhere! In my initial post I was referring to getting plants established. If you call a plant that can make deep roots "drought tolerant" then yes, these things are most definitely drought tolerant.

Not sure where your getting to Axel, but deep roots define most of the highly drought tolerant palms: borassus, hyphaene, medemia, bismarckia. I cant actually recall anyone ever evaluating drought tolerance in terms of unestablished palms. Most sites that reference drought tolerance aren't talking about fresh plantings. Copernicia baileyana is often called drought tolerant, but that does not mean a palm that is not established.

Edited October 15, 2013 by sonoranfans

[Alberto]

Very interesting topic!!

Wow that is a swing!!! (47F in the Morning to 95F by 3PM.) that is 8,33C to 35ºC in summer days! We complain here with a similar climate thing but not so extreme.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Not sure where your getting to Axel, but deep roots define most of the highly drought tolerant palms: borassus, hyphaene, medemia, bismarckia. I cant actually recall anyone ever evaluating drought tolerance in terms of unestablished palms. Most sites that reference drought tolerance aren't talking about fresh plantings. Copernicia baileyana is often called drought tolerant, but that does not mean a palm that is not established.

Tom, this is a fascinating discussion to have, and will surely derail this thread. Perhaps we should start another thread on the definition of drough tolerance. I am glad you brought up bismarckia and baileyana. Let's tackle the copernicia first. Riffle says that "a popular misconception is that copernicia species like real dry conditions. In habitat, most grow in lowland conditions that are seasonally flooded. Even during the dry season they generally receive occasional rain but they can tolerate a couple of months without rain because the water table is high." For me, a brahea that is capable of finding its way to ground water while receiving very little rain is what I call drought tolerant. Or a chamadorea radicalis where the pot can dry up completely and it's unphased, now that's what I call drought tolerant. A palm that thrives on lots of water and can survive a couple of months of humid weather without rainfall thanks to a high water table is not what I would call even remotely drought tolerant.

Now let's tackle the bismarckia. These are slightly different. Again, I think it's a major misconception that bismarckia are drought tolerant. They obviously need a lot of moisture to get going, much more than say a brahea, and once they have found ground water, they can keep going through probably quite a bit more dry than any copernicia baileyana could handle. That's probably because they are capable of putting down much, much deeper roots. In California, no irrigation water means no bismarckia, but a brahea or a washingtonia will eek out its existence on a mere 10 inches of rain a year.

In California, an armata can germinate on a mere 6-10 inches of Winter rain per year, and slowly grow in 10 months of drought. If we turned the tables, could a bismarckia or an alfredii germinate on the few inches of Summer rain Tucson gets and survive through 10 months of drought? I seriously doubt it, but it would be an interesting experiment to try.

Bottom line: drought tolerance is relative.

[Zeeth]

Not sure where your getting to Axel, but deep roots define most of the highly drought tolerant palms: borassus, hyphaene, medemia, bismarckia. I cant actually recall anyone ever evaluating drought tolerance in terms of unestablished palms. Most sites that reference drought tolerance aren't talking about fresh plantings. Copernicia baileyana is often called drought tolerant, but that does not mean a palm that is not established.

Tom, this is a fascinating discussion to have, and will surely derail this thread. Perhaps we should start another thread on the definition of drough tolerance. I am glad you brought up bismarckia and baileyana. Let's tackle the copernicia first. Riffle says that "a popular misconception is that copernicia species like real dry conditions. In habitat, most grow in lowland conditions that are seasonally flooded. Even during the dry season they generally receive occasional rain but they can tolerate a couple of months without rain because the water table is high." For me, a brahea that is capable of finding its way to ground water while receiving very little rain is what I call drought tolerant. Or a chamadorea radicalis where the pot can dry up completely and it's unphased, now that's what I call drought tolerant. A palm that thrives on lots of water and can survive a couple of months of humid weather without rainfall thanks to a high water table is not what I would call even remotely drought tolerant.

Now let's tackle the bismarckia. These are slightly different. Again, I think it's a major misconception that bismarckia are drought tolerant. They obviously need a lot of moisture to get going, much more than say a brahea, and once they have found ground water, they can keep going through probably quite a bit more dry than any copernicia baileyana could handle. That's probably because they are capable of putting down much, much deeper roots. In California, no irrigation water means no bismarckia, but a brahea or a washingtonia will eek out its existence on a mere 10 inches of rain a year.

In California, an armata can germinate on a mere 6-10 inches of Winter rain per year, and slowly grow in 10 months of drought. If we turned the tables, could a bismarckia or an alfredii germinate on the few inches of Summer rain Tucson gets and survive through 10 months of drought? I seriously doubt it, but it would be an interesting experiment to try.

Bottom line: drought tolerance is relative.

I think it's very relative, because palms that are "drought tolerant" in Cali usually die from rot in our wet season. So drought tolerant to us means a palm that can go a while without rain because of the roots reaching the water table, but NOT palms that can just go forever without water, because palms in the latter category will die here (or certainly not do well).

[Sutter Bob]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

[Phoenikakias]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Now this is what I call a realistic view with respect to latitude.

[SanDimas]

Very informative post especially more so

since I have 3G seedlings of both

alfredii and baileyna.

Thank you.

[sonoranfans]

I have come to think that soil and watering are more important for some of these palms in California. Bismarckia and B. Alfredii both experience a dry and wet season. If we look at rainfall for Antananarivo we see that May through September is a very dry time of the year with perhaps a total of 5 cm of rainfall, 1 cm per month for 5 months. The wet season, November to march averages 20cm+ rainfall per month, or 20x more rain. So palms must be drought tolerant to thrive there as there is a "drought" every year. The Alfredii likely get a little more water in a slightly lower elevation near riverbeds, but I expect these are dry part of the year in the dry season. It is not surprising that both of these species do very well in florida. Florida has some similarities to interior plateau Madagascar, those being a dry cool season and a wet hot season. Having lived in California for 2 years and florida for 3, I notice that California has a wet cool season and a very dry warm season, opposite of Madagascar interior plateau. The growing season is very dry in California, but wet in Madagascar and florida. So I expect the soil water retention and watering regimen are much more critical in California than these other palmy places. Growers face challenges that growers in florida don't have to deal with. I have had a few potted palms in California and they are much more needy of attention than my florida potted palms. I haven't killed any.... yet.

Edited October 15, 2013 by sonoranfans

[grant b.]

nominated for the longest posting of 2013

Sorry, Grant, this post wasn't meant for the illiterate or for those with ADD.

haha, definitely not, but great information

[DoomsDave]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Tell me more!

How big are your alfies?

That's expletive shouting . . .

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Tell me more!

How big are your alfies?

That's expletive shouting . . .

Yes, lets see some pictures. Getting anything from Madagascar to grow in Yuba City is a feat in itself. That's almost USDA 9a up there, and Yuba city is in the cold air drainage path of the Sierra, that makes for some really chilly Winters.

[Sutter Bob]

Haven't mastered the photo thing yet but here's a try.

Pretty sure alfredii, 3 years in this spot.

[Sutter Bob]

I'll hijack the thread briefly for anther Madagascan or two.

[Sutter Bob]

Baronii

[_Keith]

1) Beccariophoenix alfredii - so far, this palm has more than exceeded all my expectations. I planted five of them of different sizes and literally all of them have taken off gangbuster, completely un-impeeded by the cold nights. If anything, it seems like the cold nights envigorate them. Full sun specimens grow very well, but even my one full shade specimen is going to town. A couple of the smaller ones actually developed a few black spots at one point and one even had a hint of yellowing, but increasing the drip and adding soil acidifiers got rid of the issue. Now all of them look splendid. My observation on these are as follows:

• They are fast
• You can't over-water them, they are rot resistant
• They actually develop roots out of the sides of the base if planted slightly deeper, similar to how trachys behave.
• They really like sandy soil
• They love acidity
• They don't mind shade at all, doesn't seem to slow them down
• They can be moved from a humid reduced light green house to blazing full sun and they won't skip a beat
• They are not drought tolerant - don't be fooled, these grow in riverine habitat, which means wet feet
• They could care less about cold nights

In this case, my alfredii are in heaven. Although I will have to be careful with the drought tolerant. When they rains slack off, assuming they ever will again, a large Live Oak can suck up moisture like a vacuum truck.

[ghar41]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Hi Bob,

Yes, I am having similar results here. Does ok under shadecloth but even box size specimens don't do well out in the open during the winter months. As far as large pinnate palms go, in my area not as frost tolerant as Dypsis decipiens or Parajubaea sunkha.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Hi Bob,

Yes, I am having similar results here. Does ok under shadecloth but even box size specimens don't do well out in the open during the winter months. As far as large pinnate palms go, in my area not as frost tolerant as Dypsis decipiens or Parajubaea sunkha.

I wonder what the difference is? Here's a picture of a specimen that was given to me this year, it spent the Winter outdoors in the open fully exposed to 25F frost in Saratoga last winter, about 3 nights of frost. Not a trace of damage on the thing. It was a short duration frost because the rhopies in the same yard suffered a lot of damage. (I would expect worse on a rhopie exposed to 25F) I planted it at the bottom of my property where there's plenty of frost every year. I want to see how it fares. All my other alfredii were planted with the assumption they could not handle being fully exposed.

[LJG]

Were you there Axel? How can you confirm all that? No way that thing suffered NO damage at 25 with frost. Just my opinion.

[ghar41]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Hi Bob,

Yes, I am having similar results here. Does ok under shadecloth but even box size specimens don't do well out in the open during the winter months. As far as large pinnate palms go, in my area not as frost tolerant as Dypsis decipiens or Parajubaea sunkha.

I wonder what the difference is? Here's a picture of a specimen that was given to me this year, it spent the Winter outdoors in the open fully exposed to 25F frost in Saratoga last winter, about 3 nights of frost. Not a trace of damage on the thing. It was a short duration frost because the rhopies in the same yard suffered a lot of damage. (I would expect worse on a rhopie exposed to 25F) I planted it at the bottom of my property where there's plenty of frost every year. I want to see how it fares. All my other alfredii were planted with the assumption they could not handle being fully exposed.

Hi Axel,

Yes, this is just my experience here with them, 28-29F or so and they get beat up. Good to hear they are doing better for others on the coast and in the bay area.

[Sutter Bob]

Axel,

I would cover that beauty this winter if you're going to get any frost.

Too nice to lose IMHO.

Keep us posted.

[Jim in Los Altos]

I have killed most (about 10) Beccariophoenix I have tried here but have two alfredii which have been through three

winters.

None of the three species handle our winters here as small plants without overhead protection. I assume they don't

tolerate frost for at least four or five years (if ever).

On the other hand, dry hot sun of 100F plus does not hurt them as long as they are watered regularly.

They do seem to grow a little better this time of year (as a number of other palms do).

One in deep shade in a prime spot keeps a nice dark green color and is growing slowly but surely.

Not an easy palm here but worth a shot with high canopy.

Hi Bob,

Yes, I am having similar results here. Does ok under shadecloth but even box size specimens don't do well out in the open during the winter months. As far as large pinnate palms go, in my area not as frost tolerant as Dypsis decipiens or Parajubaea sunkha.

I wonder what the difference is? Here's a picture of a specimen that was given to me this year, it spent the Winter outdoors in the open fully exposed to 25F frost in Saratoga last winter, about 3 nights of frost. Not a trace of damage on the thing. It was a short duration frost because the rhopies in the same yard suffered a lot of damage. (I would expect worse on a rhopie exposed to 25F) I planted it at the bottom of my property where there's plenty of frost every year. I want to see how it fares. All my other alfredii were planted with the assumption they could not handle being fully exposed.

Axel, if that's right, your friend is in a bad microclimate. According to weather records, Saratoga's low for December 2012 was 32F and it was 31F in January 2013 with February above freezing all month.

My exposed B. alfredii experienced 32F with heavy frost on two occasions last winter and showed no damage at all.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Jim, take a look at http://www.wunderground.com/wundermap/#, zoom in on the Saratoga valley, and in the bottom of the map, there is a little dial that lets you pick the date and time - go back to Jan 13, 2013, and scan through 12AM to 7AM so you can sample last Winter's blood bath yourself. Many of those city gauges sit on rooftops or who knows where and don't tell the truth. The map tells a better story because you can see hundreds of sensors and easily see the overall trend.

Were you there Axel? How can you confirm all that? No way that thing suffered NO damage at 25 with frost. Just my opinion.

Len, I love the way you are always so sure. Well, this is what we have computers for. I took a look around on Wunderground and fired up the map for Jan 13. Looks like 28/29F across most of Saratoga for quite a long time, so perhaps you are right. 25F looks unlikely. Still doesn't answer why my friend's rhopies got hurt. Shouldn't have been the case. But now that leaves me curious because based on Wunderground, I could see zero difference in temp between Saratoga and Modesto, a grid of 28-30F across the board on both cities. Actually, Saratoga looked worse by about a degree.

Why did this specimen didn't get hurt whereas Glenn says his got fried. Could be smaller microclimate differences in people's yards.

I'll let the pictures for Jan 13 speak for themselves:

1) Yuba City: can you say "burrrrrrr"?

2) Modesto: cold, but comparatively, Modesto seems like a tropical haven given surrounding areas were all mid 20's or less.

3) Saratoga - North side, all solid 28F across the board, about same duration as Modesto:

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

And while we're at it, Jim's place:

And Len's place: Jan 13 was nothing, so I picked Jan 15, which didn't do anything in Norcal but was really cold in Socal.

[Jim in Los Altos]

And while we're at it, Jim's place:

And Len's place: Jan 13 was nothing, so I picked Jan 15, which didn't do anything in Norcal but was really cold in Socal.

Unfortunately, there are no temperatures reported on that Los Altos map for my area (Montclaire Park) but my own observation that morning was 32F in the open, five feet from the ground. Microclimates are SO important when you're growing marginals.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

And while we're at it, Jim's place:

And Len's place: Jan 13 was nothing, so I picked Jan 15, which didn't do anything in Norcal but was really cold in Socal.

Unfortunately, there are no temperatures reported on that Los Altos map for my area (Montclaire Park) but my own observation that morning was 32F in the open, five feet from the ground. Microclimates are SO important when you're growing marginals.

You're lucky, we got 30F out in the lower garden 5 feet off the ground and 32F on the hill with the parts under canopy around 33F-34F (Bananas stayed green). Seemed to be a function of the wind, down the street they got a low of 35F.

[Sutter Bob]

Hi Axel,

As you can see I'm pushing it here.

A few things that help:

I'm in town and surrounded by houses. Mine is a two story.

I have a pool and neighbors on either side do too. I think that might have a slight moderating effect.

I'm on a small rise with a drop in elevation of 15 feet or so just north of me.

Our hot summers offer a chance for heat tolerant palms to replace lost growth.

I have some tall conifers around.

I'm a slow learner.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Hi Axel,

As you can see I'm pushing it here.

A few things that help:

I'm in town and surrounded by houses. Mine is a two story.

I have a pool and neighbors on either side do too. I think that might have a slight moderating effect.

I'm on a small rise with a drop in elevation of 15 feet or so just north of me.

Our hot summers offer a chance for heat tolerant palms to replace lost growth.

I have some tall conifers around.

I'm a slow learner.

Ha ha, I am a slow learner too. The great advantage of the Central Valley is the sheer amount of heat you get, there are so many solid 9b palms to plant. If you've ever seen Edith's garden, about 90% of what she grows would be bullet proof for you. She's in a cold sink so she grows a lot of the stuff that does well for you guys inland.