Royal Palms in Houston!?!

[KatyTX]

I was driving to work the other morning and stumbled upon this curious occuance.  Growing along the parking lot of the Best Western hotel (Hempstead Hwy @ Highway 6 - Cypress, TX - maybe zone 9a) were these royals.  I don't know how long they have been here, but they obviously have seen at least one winter.  

There was about 8-10 of them planted - they looked pretty good (all things considered)...

[KatyTX]

Closer...

[KatyTX]

Gives hope to some of us lunatics trying to grow 'marginal' palms...

[ruskinPalms]

My favorite palms! I hope they make it.

Bill

[spockvr6]

(ruskinPalms @ Jul. 15 2006,13:34)

QUOTE

My favorite palms! I hope they make it.

Bill

My favorite as well!

I wish them luck!

[surgeon83]

Wow, I must say I'm quite surprised, because I notice a huge drop in palm populations once I leave the island, and to see Royals of all things.  Those look better than most I see on the island- I guess that supports the theory that the ones here get browned out by salt spray.  If anyone's interested (like I was), Houston palm tree had a buch of 3-5 gallon royals, about 8' tall (stretched out) for $17.50.  Shade grown, but mine is adapting well to full sun.

Thanks for the pics, keep us updated!

[NBTX11]

Don't know where exactly you are talking about.  But if they are in the center Houston heat island, they could easily, IMO, make it a number of years before a freeze get them (and it probably will eventually) IF they are actually 9b hardy like they are supposed to be.  Even though Houston is 9a, the past 10-15 years I am sure they have averaged a 9b winter, so maybe it is possible they could make it 7-10 (or more???) years before they are done in.  Keep posting pics of these one, and it would be interesting to see just exactly when these were planted.  It would be intersting to know if these have already seen 4 or 5 winters.

[KatyTX]

Jim,

These  definitely are not in the inner city heat island - they are on the far northwest fringe of 'civilization'.  They don't look recently planted.  There's also all sorts of other tropical plants in pots as well as a giant bird of paradise planted in the ground.  The hotel manager must bring his hobby to work...

We haven't seen a hard freeze in 6 years or so.  Maybe they'll survive a few more.  I'm thinking of planting one - the $17.50 variety sounds like the kind I might try.  Houston garden center has some huge (25gal) ones - listed at $299.  When the 70% off sales hit in the fall,they will be close to $100...still too much for something that may not last very long.  They also have spindles & Veitchia merrillii -reasonably priced.  I would never put one of those in the ground here, however.

I'll check on them this winter and see how they are doing.

Matt

[NBTX11]

I say go for it.  Just don't spend a fortune and realize that it might last 2 winters or it might last 15 winters.  If you can do that, then you got yourself a beauty!!  I thought about it myself, if I could find a way to protect it on the coldest nights.

[palmsrgreat]

I see these palms everyday on my way to work. I don't live too far from them as I am just a bit further west on hwy 290. Where did you say the palms for 17.50 were located? I would like to go by and pick a few up myself. Thanks.

[DoomsDave]

Sigh.  Hate to be a nattering nabob of negativism, but . . .

Hum a dirge, y'all, for those poor sad Royals.

When it gets cold, and blue northers roll in, they're gonna be mush.  

But they'll be glorious in the meantime.

dave

[spockvr6]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Jul. 19 2006,14:10)

QUOTE

Sigh.  Hate to be a nattering nabob of negativism, but . . .

Hum a dirge, y'all, for those poor sad Royals.

When it gets cold, and blue northers roll in, they're gonna be mush.  

But they'll be glorious in the meantime.

dave

While I (unfortunately) agree.......they certainly look mahhhvelous in the meantime!

Who knows....maybe theyll make it another decade if we luck out......

[BobbyinNY]

I say go for it.  Just don't spend a fortune and realize that it might last 2 winters or it might last 15 winters.  If you can do that, then you got yourself a beauty!!  I thought about it myself, if I could find a way to protect it on the coldest nights.

I would definitely go for it if I lived there.... Heck, for the few nights that you would have to protect them, you could just leave C9 Christmas lights wrapped around them for the winter and turn them on on the cold nights and put blankets around the trunk.... Even if they defoliated, I'm sure they'd regrow as long as the crown was intact.

[spockvr6]

(BobbyinNY @ Jul. 19 2006,14:51)

QUOTE

Heck, for the few nights that you would have to protect them, you could just leave C9 Christmas lights wrapped around them for the winter and turn them on on the cold nights and put blankets around the trunk.... Even if they defoliated, I'm sure they'd regrow as long as the crown was intact.

Im sure that sooner or later my Royals will test your hypothesis  

I believe one can get away with that once........

[NBTX11]

(Dave from So-Cal @ Jul. 19 2006,14:10)

QUOTE

Sigh.  Hate to be a nattering nabob of negativism, but . . .

Hum a dirge, y'all, for those poor sad Royals.

When it gets cold, and blue northers roll in, they're gonna be mush.  

But they'll be glorious in the meantime.

dave

In a normal winter, the blue northers moderate significantly by the time they get down to Houston or San Antonio, so that most winters you only see 10-15 days of 32F or and just a handful (5 or 6) of upper 20s.  Lately the winter lows have been bottoming out in the mid and even upper 20s.  Now, that's been the norm lately and I hope they continue for a while.  That's not to say a bad winter can't get a lot colder, but those have been few and far between.  Looking at the records and I realize it can get much colder, but the royals aren't as far fetched as some might think,IMO.

[spockvr6]

(syersj @ Jul. 19 2006,15:32)

QUOTE

In a normal winter, the blue northers moderate significantly by the time they get down to Houston or San Antonio, so that most winters you only see 10-15 days of 32F or and just a handful (5 or 6) of upper 20s.  Lately the winter lows have been bottoming out in the mid and even upper 20s.  Now, that's been the norm lately and I hope they continue for a while.  That's not to say a bad winter can't get a lot colder, but those have been few and far between.  Looking at the records and I realize it can get much colder, but the royals aren't as far fetched as some might think,IMO.

If those Royals have seen 10-15 days of 32F and 5-6 days of mid-upper 20's over this past winter and still look like that they are hardiest Royals in existence!  

One night of middle 20's and a Royal will look terrible (if it survives at all).   My neighbor a few houses down lost a Royal with 5-6 ft of trunk at 27F in 2003.  I could see slight foliage damage starting on my untrunked smaller ones (about 10-12 ft OA) at 34F last winter.  

I know these are sometimes reported as 9b palms, but thats a stretch IMO.  I think if they really were 9b, one would see alot more of them in central FL.  In reality, they are only widely seen as permanent palms in 10a+ (i.e. coastal) areas of central FL.  

But hey.......that hasnt stopped me!  (See sig for location....1.5 miles from the Gulf)

[Tad]

tick,tock,tick, tock,tick,tock,tick,tock,tick,....like sand through an hourglass so go the days of the royal palms in houston!!!!!!

[NBTX11]

(spockvr6 @ Jul. 19 2006,15:39)

QUOTE

(syersj @ Jul. 19 2006,15:32)

QUOTE

In a normal winter, the blue northers moderate significantly by the time they get down to Houston or San Antonio, so that most winters you only see 10-15 days of 32F or and just a handful (5 or 6) of upper 20s.  Lately the winter lows have been bottoming out in the mid and even upper 20s.  Now, that's been the norm lately and I hope they continue for a while.  That's not to say a bad winter can't get a lot colder, but those have been few and far between.  Looking at the records and I realize it can get much colder, but the royals aren't as far fetched as some might think,IMO.

If those Royals have seen 10-15 days of 32F and 5-6 days of mid-upper 20's over this past winter and still look like that they are hardiest Royals in existence!  

One night of middle 20's and a Royal will look terrible (if it survives at all).   My neighbor a few houses down lost a Royal with 5-6 ft of trunk at 27F in 2003.  I could see slight foliage damage starting on my untrunked smaller ones (about 10-12 ft OA) at 34F last winter.  

I know these are sometimes reported as 9b palms, but thats a stretch IMO.  I think if they really were 9b, one would see alot more of them in central FL.  In reality, they are only widely seen as permanent palms in 10a+ (i.e. coastal) areas of central FL.  

But hey.......that hasnt stopped me!  (See sig for location....1.5 miles from the Gulf)

Well sometimes it's less cold than that, mabye 2-3 upper 20s and 5-8 total freezes.  And, if you're close the gulf, you may not get any freezes.  I'm not a royal "expert", I am only going off websites that say they are a 9b palm.  Of course they may be stretching it a bit to sell them!  I know that they're not long term in Houston, but maybe they'll make it a while.  We'll see...

Hey palmotrafficante, your not going to sell royals like that!  Think positive and be optomistic.  I'm going to take your advice to buy some land down there and make a killing selling cocos in the valley  lol

[Tad]

the royals sell themselves down here!!!!!

18 acres with water rights in the strongest water district in the R.G.V. ready to plant 12,000.00 per acre!!

owner finance with the right down payment!!!!

[KatyTX]

I don't know how many winters these have seen, but last winter the minimum in that part of town would have been 27-28F - with 5-6 nights 30-32F.  

I agree - these palms are toast.  They are fully exposed and too large to be protected (especially in a hotel parking lot).  But it is a nice experiment for those of us who did not pay for them.  Plus they are nice to look at.

10 months out of the year, the climate would be perfect.  Who knows what will happen...I think it's a cool anomaly while it lasts.

[NBTX11]

(KatyTX @ Jul. 19 2006,21:12)

QUOTE

I don't know how many winters these have seen, but last winter the minimum in that part of town would have been 27-28F - with 5-6 nights 30-32F.  

I agree - these palms are toast.  They are fully exposed and too large to be protected (especially in a hotel parking lot).  But it is a nice experiment for those of us who did not pay for them.  Plus they are nice to look at.

10 months out of the year, the climate would be perfect.  Who knows what will happen...I think it's a cool anomaly while it lasts.

Actually, they probably wouldn't have a problem 11 1/2 months out of the year, but those 2 weeks worth of cold fronts and/or lows in the 20s might do them in.

[jimbiz]

Growing a palm in a marginal area is like having a pet - you enjoy it for 15 years or so and then poof! it's gone.  You're upset/wait till next year and then get another one and start all over.....

So long as you know what you are getting into and whatever you plant gives you pleasure, go for it and boo snubs to the critics...it's your garden!

[palmsrgreat]

(jimbiz @ Jul. 19 2006,23:55)

QUOTE

Growing a palm in a marginal area is like having a pet - you enjoy it for 15 years or so and then poof! it's gone.  You're upset/wait till next year and then get another one and start all over.....

So long as you know what you are getting into and whatever you plant gives you pleasure, go for it and boo snubs to the critics...it's your garden!

Right on, that's all I'm saying.

[palmsrgreat]

(palmotrafficante @ Jul. 19 2006,16:22)

QUOTE

tick,tock,tick, tock,tick,tock,tick,tock,tick,....like sand through an hourglass so go the days of the royal palms in houston!!!!!!

gay

[ania]

This has inspired me to plant my puny Royal in the ground. The palm is four years old and it should be three times fatter and taller. It spent two years of its life in very unfavorable conditions so I guess that is the reason. Do you think that it still has a chance to become fat and robust like the Royals in the pictures?

Anna

[palmsrgreat]

I would think it would Anna.

I even saw some large Royals for sale at a nursery right around the corner from where these are located.

[Tad]

hey look at that mikey smith can type thats so cute!!!!

the tick tock bit is a jab from another post from syersj about certain palms being on borrowed time!!!!!

[palmsrgreat]

I can't figure out why the local nursery here in Houston is carrying 30 gal Royals and Foxtails. I thought these species could not survive in this area? They are going for about 150 each.

[Tad]

i will explain it for you mr. smith. the local nursery guy is selling them at 150.00, that tells me he has about 50 t0 75 dollars tied up in them. now in comes john q homeowner who after drooling over some of these in a magazine or website or mexican vacation spot  will now purchase them. They will then take them home, slap them around the pool, they will gawk at them, tell alll their friends about the ones they saw just like them down in ixtapa, cozumel,cabo, wherever. when they freeze the lawn care company or whoever will yank them out and throw them away!!!!! then you start all over in spring time !!!!!!!!!!!!!

meanwhile mr. nursery guy is on his way to the fnats show(nursery trade show) in florida to see if he cant find some more of those at a cheaper price becasue he has sold out.

[NBTX11]

(palmotrafficante @ Jul. 22 2006,20:29)

QUOTE

i will explain it for you mr. smith. the local nursery guy is selling them at 150.00, that tells me he has about 50 t0 75 dollars tied up in them. now in comes john q homeowner who after drooling over some of these in a magazine or website or mexican vacation spot  will now purchase them. They will then take them home, slap them around the pool, they will gawk at them, tell alll their friends about the ones they saw just like them down in ixtapa, cozumel,cabo, wherever. when they freeze the lawn care company or whoever will yank them out and throw them away!!!!! then you start all over in spring time !!!!!!!!!!!!!

meanwhile mr. nursery guy is on his way to the fnats show(nursery trade show) in florida to see if he cant find some more of those at a cheaper price becasue he has sold out.

That's true, whenever they sell kings, royals, bottles, etc. around here they go like hot cakes.  I have, SO FAR, resisted the urge to buy one and plant in ground.  I get tempted every time I see them.  Hey, if it lasts 5-7 years before getting killed, it would be worth it right.

So what your saying is our local nursery guys don't care as long as he is making a buck!?

[Tad]

why would he care??? he is in the business of making your tropical plant dreams come true!!! people buy annual color every year, its a million dollar deal. guaranteed reapeat business. so do you you think we loose sleep at night because somone bought petunias and by golly they are gonna die?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? NO WAY!!! BECAUSE THE GROWER IS TOOOOO BUSY GETTING READY FOR FALL COLOR!!!!!!!!

Now if he lies to you and makes false claims of cold hardiness??? That is wrong and should not be done!!!!

None of my buyers in Houston are ever told that these types of palms are cold hardy!!!!!!

[Robert Lee Riffle]

Jim, which website(s) say that Roystonea regia are hardy in USDA zone 9b?  I can assure you they are not unless they are in at least a 10a microclimate of the bigger zone.  Not even in Kalifornia would they be permanent in 9b.  Moody Gardens is basically 10a except for every 10 to 15 years; and Gahlbeestone has not had a hard freeze (below 28F.) for about 10 years I believe.

[NBTX11]

(Robert Lee Riffle @ Jul. 22 2006,22:46)

QUOTE

Jim, which website(s) say that Roystonea regia are hardy in USDA zone 9b?  I can assure you they are not unless they are in at least a 10a microclimate of the bigger zone.  Not even in Kalifornia would they be permanent in 9b.  Moody Gardens is basically 10a except for every 10 to 15 years; and Gahlbeestone has not had a hard freeze (below 28F.) for about 10 years I believe.

http://www.tropilab.com/royalpalm.html

http://www.horticopia.com/hortpix/html/pc4696.htm

http://www.junglemusic.net/palms/roystonea-regia.htm

Bob, sites like these and others.  I saw one that said hardy to 26F, can't find that one right now.  I realize that is probably not accurate, but they are out there.

BTW, did you ever try growing tender stuff like royals when you were in Houston.

Jim

[Robert Lee Riffle]

Jim, note that Phil does NOT say "9b."  It's true that short periods of 28F. will probably not kill the palm;  sustained temps this low would do it in.  So, I'll amend my claim for Kali, I guess, that's where these very shortlived low temps would most likely occur.  However, there are other problems out there, like prolonged cool nights and low rainfall.  In spite of those obstacles I know that Ralph Velez (Ventura ?) has fairly large specimens of R. regia.

And, yes!  When I was younger, more obtuse, obdurate  and even more obnoxious I planted Roystonea in inner city Houston.  The following winter it got down to 28F.  They died.  What I failed to indicate is that the 3-O's didn't plant regia but rather large oleracea seedlings, the most cold tender species in the genus!!!!

[DoomsDave]

RLR:

Wow, when diod you live in inner city Houston?  Bet it's changed a lot since then. . .

Ralph Velez is in Fountain Valley, which is in the Big Orgy, just like me.  Pauleen Sullivan also has a few nice ones up in Ventura.

dave

[Robert Lee Riffle]

Dave, I lived in the house in inner city H for almost 30 years. Bought it in Sep. 1973 - moved to FL in Sep. 2000.

If you're familiar with Big H, the neighborhood was just north of the S.W. Fwy where it goes underground and not too far south of The Heights.

It was a typically sized lot (SMALL); but I made a jungle in the space I had and even eventually had the pool filled in (!) and planted THAT with palms (mainly). Before that fill I went completely crazy and had the entire backyard covered with a steel structure and translucent plastic panels, all attached to a 12-ft. high wooden fence.  In spite of that the coconuts I planted under all this died .... soil became too cold for too long.  

The royals mentioned above were planted in the filled in pool after the cover was removed!.

--el viejo loco

[NBTX11]

Bob, I guess I'll take your experiece and forget it, unless it's in a pot!  Since I think it usually gets about 1-3 degrees colder in San Antone than Houston, being farther from the gulf.  Oh, well...guess I'll have to move back to FL someday.

[Rob Pittman]

A couple observations about Royals...

My 30 gallon Royals experienced 30 degrees for a short duration but heavy frost in my open field and half died (around 15).  Their brothers/sisters at my other property saw the same temperature with no frost and they are perfectly healthy.

Royals 5 miles further inland that are 40' tall experienced no damage.

There is a 40' plus royal on my street that has been through the freezes of 1989 and 1996.  The palm looks great.  This palm had to see mid to lower twenties during these two major cold events.

There are many other Royals I know of in the Tampa Bay area that have been there for over 12 years.  They have overhead canopy.  They look great.

I think cold hardiness for Royals is heavily influenced by their height and canopy during a convective freeze and wind block dring an advective freeze.

Rob

[epicure3]

I would venture to say that it is the outside air temperature which has the most effect on royals as I have 3 very robust regias planted as 24" boxes 3 years ago that are now about 10-12' in height with about 4 feet of unusually fat trunk. The soil temps here in the winter are in the high 50s to around 60 and they still perform quite well. They are becoming more common here in the San Diego and I have seen quite a few just as avenue trees.

roystonea is on the left

[Kris]

Hi Epicure your post no39,the the top photo on royal palm is lovely and i like that baby.

and in the same picture i see a suscullent leaf touching your royal palm what is this plant,because i happen to love it.

nice pictures & keep it coming !

one man one tree..

Love,

Kris (from S.India).