I would like to finish my paver project properly by putting a 4" layer of gravel, topped with a 1" layer of sand to set my bricks on top of to get a nice even surface. For now I have just placed my pavers directly on top of the clay soil. I noticed that when I was excavating that there appeared to be "feeder" roots near the top of the clay soil that spread outward from the trunk to about where the tree ring currently sits. I know that Bismarks have a tap root that cannot be disturbed, but I was wondering if this goes directly down from the trunk, or if it may be located elsewhere. I want to start excavating directly on the outer edge of the tree ring. The tree has been in the ground from a 15 gal for 3 years and is about 6 feet tall and starting to trunk. Any advice?

Thanks

You'll be fine digging around it. You'll probably encounter roots sprawling under the pavers. I don't think you'll have a problem cutting a few surface roots, because you are not disturbing the palm. Palms don't have tap roots. Just a misnomer because bizzies have long agressive first roots.

Great. Thanks matty. I'm amazed how this has thrived in my clay soil. It looked almost dead when I got it.

Great. Thanks matty. I'm amazed how this has thrived in my clay soil. It looked almost dead when I got it.

Why the pavers? Are you planning on using the area as a patio area? The space looks a little tight for a soon to be very large Bismarkia.

Edited September 16, 201312 yr by Tampa Scott

My dogs hang out back there and they track dirt in - it would give them great shade too.

I think that the pavers will provide a nice touch. Yes, I agree, the Bismarkia will grow very large soon (especially at the rate in which it is growing) but I plan to trim it on the way up if need be. The space is about 13'. I'm hoping that it will fill the space perfectly!

I actually am planning on planting an already trunking S. Causiarum (15') and a P. Sylvestris (5') just out of frame. I'm hoping that If I do some moderate trimming, and granted that they will grow at different rates, that they will all just barely fit and give me almost a complete canopy. This crazy obsession is consuming my yard! I shouldn't have moved to North Park!

Nice Bismarckia,looks happy now! I like your plan of planting more of the huge palms on your property,they will certainly fit,just need good planting location selection to look good and natural. And of course there will still be more space to plant more palms and other accent plants underneath as all those palms are fast growers!

Why do you have this cement block ring around the Bismarckia? To keep the leafs from hanging all the way down and getting in your way or for another reason? I have planted my Bismarckia right next to a walkway(or better say between 2 walkways but only one of them is important to stay open) and have been planning to have a removable metal ring structure positioned around it,about 1,5m in diameter and about the same or a little less in height,to keep the leafs from blocking the passage. The time to place the structure is coming for mine as its about 3m tall now and growing fast! I would be a little worried about forming this well like structure around a Bismarckia as this cuts air circulation and things will be staying wet longer in there,especially once the leafs grow and rest on the structure,further blocking air circulation. Just a thought,i am sure it can work out fine but there is also the possibility it might not like the lack of air circulation and extended period of wetness around its base and latter,its trunk. I have seen Washingtonia grow fine or even better in similar spots,with plenty of roots popping out the trunk in the high humidity zone inside well like structures,but dont know how a Bismarckia would react.

Thanks Kostas. Yeah, it seems very happy. I was watering it heavily, which seemed to help, even in heavy clay. I have since slowed down, partly as winter approaches and the days get shorter and cooler. The tree ring is there primarily to keep the dogs from peeing on it - I have seen some posts about the benefits of urinating on palms... Although it's dog pee, not human pee... Seems strange...

Yes, the ring does keep the bottom fans slightly upright, but the tree ring is only about 15" tall and I figure that after perhaps another year I will have that much trunk and it will allow air to escape. I will definitely keep on eye on that until though. Thanks for your input on that specific issue, as it had crossed my mind as well.

One thing to consider (and any input by you on this would be appreciated) is that once I properly set the pavers with about 6" of extremely well drained material underneath, as well as 2" of pavers (giving a total of 8" of perfect drainage) that I'm thinking that the only area that will really stay moist will be the area directly inside the tree ring. Matty B gave me some useful input on digging around the tree - is there anything that you might add that would ensure it's survival? Think of it as me digging an 8" deep trench directly outside the tree ring and extending outward to the sides.

Fertilization? I was thinking on mulching inside the ring, covered with 1" diameter stones?

Just on a side-note, these are the other trees that I am planning on planting.

Sabal

Phoenix

Edited September 16, 201312 yr by Sabal Steve

wow that looks tight for those three space demanding palms... I would ensure that the sabal and bizzie are 15' apart, or their crowns will really grow into each other. Good luck there...

Yeah, it will be a little cramped for sure. The smart thing to do would have been to obtain a small slower growing Sabal and plant it as the Bismarkia would surely outpace it. The Phoenix will be competing for space with the Sabal. I may end up rearranging things a bit and moving one of these... Still, I think that I should be able to trim each of these to a point where they will still retain much of their glory.

Once in the ground, does anyone have a good idea (in order) of the speed at which these will grow at?

The Bizzie and the Phoenix are about the same size now, and even in the pot, the Phoenix seems to be taking the lead. Also, I planted the Bizzie in mostly clay with little amendment, where the Phoenix will be in near completely amended soil. The Sabal is hands down the biggest one and since it is trunking, and will be in mostly amended soil, I think that it will take off - even though it is rumored to be a slower growing Sabal. The nursery that I purchased it from really butchered it and I think that it will take a season or two to fill out its crown again.

My dogs hang out back there and they track dirt in - it would give them great shade too.

I think that the pavers will provide a nice touch. Yes, I agree, the Bismarkia will grow very large soon (especially at the rate in which it is growing) but I plan to trim it on the way up if need be. The space is about 13'. I'm hoping that it will fill the space perfectly!

Steve, I went out a took a measure of the leaf spread on my largest Bismarckia. The leaf spread is 24' on the largest with the other two coming in at 22'. My P.Sylvestris has a 22' leaf spread.

Yeah... I'm only fooling myself I know... Shouldn't the 3 palms grow at different rates thus giving a layered effect? Granted you are in FL and things grow faster there, but how long have the palms that you mentioned been in the ground? I would suppose that it would take over a decade here for these palms to grow to that size? P. Sylvestris and S. Causiarum are uncommon palms in San Diego and I don't know much about the growing conditions here.

Thank you everyone for the replies and the valuable insight. Palmtalk and it's users are undoubtedly the best resource that I have found yet!

I think these 3 species will grow at similar rates but yes,eventually there should be some layered pattern developing,although that may be slow to establish and the palms may be slow at clearing their canopies due to relatively similar growth rates. P. sylvestris is supposedly one of the fastest Phoenix,able to start trunking very fast and grow lots of trunk annually. Bismarckia can grow up to 50cm of trunk per year in favorable conditions,so i would expect around 30cm annually if you get enough heat and provide adequate water. Sabal causiarum supposedly has a similar speed of growth with Bismarckia and given that it will take 2-3years to start growing fast enough,i expect that Bismarckia will take the lead and then P. sylvestris and S. causiarum will struggle for the second place,which is good enough as these will have more space between them than each will have with Bismarckia. I would plant the Sabal asap to not dwarf its growth and affect eventual trunk diameter as it would be a shame. Its growing point is still underground so hopefully should be fine if planted now.

Regarding growth rates,your Bismarckia should start trunking in just 2-3 years from now if not sooner,if it grows around as fast as mine does! 2 weeks ago it was 2+ something meters tall and now its 3m tall....They are capable of crazy fast growth!

About the ring,if you have it there just to keep your dog from peeing on the palm,you can remove it as a Bismarckia or any other big palm is not going to be affected by it as long as its watered ok. Also,its relatively simple to teach your dog not to pee on it,i have done it with mine about several plants and other areas and i sure you have done it with yours regarding certain objects/poles,so the Bismarckia should be fine and look better without it

Mulch would be great around the Bismarckia and everywhere where there is exposed soil,the more mulched surface the better! An organic mulch(straw,wood chips,etc)is better for soil health and plant growth than gravel or rocks which dont help anywhere as much with soil structure building,avoiding compaction,drainage,nutrients,etc Just keep the mulch layer thin(5cm around the base of the Bismarckia,you dont want its base stay too wet in winter from the rains.

Happy palm growing!

Thanks Kostas!

Some updated pictures from the project.

Edited September 28, 201312 yr by Sabal Steve

The Bizmarkia alone will be touching both walls in a couple, no need for the other two.

The Bizmarkia alone will be touching both walls in a couple, no need for the other two.

It's sort of hard to see with the angle, but if you look at post 18 in the bottom right corner you will see the edge of a large pot which is about where the sabal is going to go. It is more or less 15 feet away. Near the deck. Yes, I do expect it to be crowded... The bizzie will be the only palm in that confined area.