growing palms under walnuts

[elHoagie]

I hadn't thought about it, but Happ's post got me thinking.  I'm moving to a new garden that has a LOT of California black walnuts growing on it.  These trees cannot be removed legally, because they are protected in LA.  Anyway, has anyone had success growing palms beneath walnuts, or is the juglone a death sentence?

[Zac in NC]

I know the Eastern Black walnut Juglans nigra is a PITA for growing things under. They kill off other vegetation. I have a small adult one in my yard that I am actively removing its roots in preparation of ripping it out. I don't know about the Californian ones though.

Zac

[Tad]

what if you "accidentaly" spilled herbicide on it?? or if somone "vandalized" them with a chainsaw inbetween current owner move out and new homeowner move in???

[JakeK]

Jack,

No need to worry, the California Black Walnut, Persian and English Walnut to do not produce the toxin. Only Juglans nigra & cinerea produce the toxin.

Go here for more info: http://learningstore.uwex.edu/pdf%5CA3182.pdf

Jake

[happ]

Good News Jake  

I posted a few photos of walnut overstory on another discussion.  Here are a few more:

[Bilbo]

Jack I am having usual problems down here on the cable so I hope Im not repeating myself.

Anyway, if those jugs get kinda accidentally ring barked by squirrels or other varmints they will die for sure - oh what a shame . . .

Hope to meet again in CR and the beer is on you!

Regardez

Juan

[PalmGuyWC]

Look out, I'm getting on my soap box.  The property that I own was once a walnut orchid, and there were a few still left on the property when I moved here.  They came out the first year, as they were ugly trees and sick.  I mean, I do live in Walnut Creek and there are hardly any left in the City. If the City wants to protect a junk, dying tree, that's their problem. They can always be replaced with something much nicer.

We are becoming over regulated, big time. There are a couple of Citys in the Bay Area that want to ban smoking, even on your own property.  Rediculious!!

A friend of mine had a nice place in Whistler BC rented for a week of sking.  When he and his buddy got to Vancouver, he was denied entry into Canada because he had a DUI from 5 years ago. At great expense they had to turn around and come back to San Francisco and their sking week was ruined.  I'm told the USA has the same restriction on Canadians and it's a tit for tat thing.  My buddy hasn't had a drink in 5 years.

In NY City some politician wants to pass an ordinance that you can't cross a street with ear phones, because some guy got run over and smashed because he didn't hear a vechicle coming down on him. I would never cross a street without looking both ways, and particularly in NY City.  Whatever happend to common sense? Are we being governed by a bunch of idiots?  I think the answer is YES!

Dick

[redant]

" I mean, I do live in Walnut Creek and there are hardly any left in the City. If the City wants to protect a junk, dying tree, that's their problem."

Exactly. I really hate when the government tells you what you must grown on your own property. If it's that important to them let them buy the land and grow it.

Seems the gov wants to tell you how to do everything right down to the proper way to wipe your you know what.

[elHoagie]

Thanks for all the input!  Jake, your article has helped put my mind at ease, it seems like it's just the black walnut and butternut that are really bad.  Still, I'll probably start with some disposable palm species to see how they react.

Happ - are you sure you have southern california black walnuts on your slope?  I think these trees are deciduous, and one of the first to lose their leaves in the fall.  All the trees in your photo look to be evergreen.

[happ]

(elHoagie @ Feb. 08 2007,13:24)

QUOTE

Thanks for all the input!  Jake, your article has helped put my mind at ease, it seems like it's just the black walnut and butternut that are really bad.  Still, I'll probably start with some disposable palm species to see how they react.

Happ - are you sure you have southern california black walnuts on your slope?  I think these trees are deciduous, and one of the first to lose their leaves in the fall.  All the trees in your photo look to be evergreen.

Jack

Those photos were taken last summer in order to illustrate the density of shade.  I can post current photos of leaf-less walnut trees if you like.  There are, however, several large evergreen trees that I have no idea what they are.  Perhaps I will post photos for identification feedback.

Dick

Are the walnut trees in your area the juglans californica?

The Santa Monica Mts conservancy have purchased and set aside several canyons as preserves in my area.  No one complains since it mean open space for wild life and less people  ::

Actually many of the walnuts are infested with termites.  It is fairly common for whole trees to suddenly fall over and one can see how the termites have eaten away the entire core of the tree.    Everybody has termites and grasshoppers because of these trees  

Los Angeles has ordinances that prohibit even the removal of "established" trees.  A neighbor wanted to cut down 2 huge juniper trees and was warned that she would pay a costly fine if she proceeded.

[PalmGuyWC]

Happ,

I don't know what kind of walnuts were growing here, but they were probably relics from former days when walnuts were grown in Walnut Creek.  It's all houses now and the few remaining walnuts are considered junk trees.  They are not very attractive and most are old, diseased and dying.  Walnut Creek has an ordinace that you can't chop down ANY tree if the trunk is 14" or over.

The only native trees here that are of any value are the Valley Oaks, (Quercus  lobata) and I have two, and one is estimated to be over 350 yrs old. It's one of the largest in Walnut Creek.  One has to be carefull not to water under the drip line in the summer or they will develop oak root fungus. My largest one takes up a lot of real estate, but I take very good care of it, and there is nothing planted under it, and it never gets watered in the summer.

Walnut Creek has never allowed palms to be planted as street trees, or on city property but I'm hoping to get that silly ordinance changed.  There are Washingtonias growing everywhere on private property.

Dick

[happ]

(PalmGuyWC @ Feb. 08 2007,21:00)

QUOTE

Happ,

I don't know what kind of walnuts were growing here, but they were probably relics from former days when walnuts were grown in Walnut Creek.  It's all houses now and the few remaining walnuts are considered junk trees.  They are not very attractive and most are old, diseased and dying.  Walnut Creek has an ordinace that you can't chop down ANY tree if the trunk is 14" or over.

The only native trees here that are of any value are the Valley Oaks, (Quercus  lobata) and I have two, and one is estimated to be over 350 yrs old. It's one of the largest in Walnut Creek.  One has to be carefull not to water under the drip line in the summer or they will develop oak root fungus. My largest one takes up a lot of real estate, but I take very good care of it, and there is nothing planted under it, and it never gets watered in the summer.

Walnut Creek has never allowed palms to be planted as street trees, or on city property but I'm hoping to get that silly ordinance changed.  There are Washingtonias growing everywhere on private property.

Dick

Wow    A 350-year old oak.  Please post photos.  There are oaks up in Chico that are so old the city has to prop up the limbs that can extend 100 feet out from the trunk    The Hooker Oak was one of the largest in California before it died.  As a kid I'd climb huge oaks and build tree forts  :laugh:

Hooker Oak was a large Valley Oak tree (Quercus lobata) in Chico, California. It was named after English botanist and Director of the Royal Botanical Gardens, Sir Joseph Dalton Hooker by Annie Bidwell in 1887. When it fell during a windstorm on May 1, 1977, it was nearly a hundred feet tall (30 m) and 29 feet (8.8 m) in circumference eight feet (2.4 m) from the ground. The largest branch measured 111 feet (33.6 m) from trunk to tip and the circumference of outside branches was nearly five hundred feet (150 m). Its age had been estimated at a thousand years, but on its demise it was found to be two trees, of 325 years each which had long ago grown into one.

[palmazon]

as seen in Robin Hood (Errol Flynn)

Welcome to Sherwood

[happ]

(palmazon @ Feb. 08 2007,21:56)

QUOTE

as seen in Robin Hood (Errol Flynn)

Welcome to Sherwood

That's right.  And we'd throw acorns at the girls below warning them to stay out  :laugh:

[elHoagie]

(happ @ Feb. 08 2007,17:01)

QUOTE

Jack

Those photos were taken last summer in order to illustrate the density of shade.  I can post current photos of leaf-less walnut trees if you like.  There are, however, several large evergreen trees that I have no idea what they are.  Perhaps I will post photos for identification feedback.

Sorry Happ, I get confused easily with dicots

Here's a view of the walnut forest at the hilltop home I'm purchasing...

[PalmGuyWC]

Hi Jack!

Whoops, did I say that?  I used to be an airline pilot and there were  certain phrases we couldn't use.  Anyway, Your hilltop looks like a great place for palms and the walnuts will shade them when they are younger and tender. As the years go by, a walnut missing here and there....and who the hell will notice?  I may be mistaken but I don't think walnuts like summer water, so they may just croak on you if you plan to have a well watered palm garden.

Dick

[happ]

Jack

That looks like a great site; lots of room.  Walnuts don't get too large.  I think you will be very happy in El Sereno.  I was just talking to a friend who has lived in that part of Los Angeles for 30 yrs. & has never seen frost.  In fact, it was in El Sereno that I first realized how much warmer nights are in foothills.  You will find El Sereno cooler than Altadena during summer days [maybe by 5+ degrees] but nights will be warmer all year long.  Plus it isn't that windy like parts of the lower slopes of the San Gabriel.  You are moving into zone 11     Have fun!

[DoomsDave]

Jack:

Yeah, one drawback of Lost Analjuice is the city laws.  I had to deal with inspectors during my palm pimping days.  I'll tell you the story, one of these days . ...

Hmm.  I never knew that LA had a law that said you couldn't remove trees, but that doesn't surprise me.

Here in La La Ha Ha, we take our chain saws to the cantina . . . . LOLOL

dave

[elHoagie]

(happ @ Feb. 09 2007,21:08)

QUOTE

Jack

That looks like a great site; lots of room.  Walnuts don't get too large.  I think you will be very happy in El Sereno.  I was just talking to a friend who has lived in that part of Los Angeles for 30 yrs. & has never seen frost.  In fact, it was in El Sereno that I first realized how much warmer nights are in foothills.  You will find El Sereno cooler than Altadena during summer days [maybe by 5+ degrees] but nights will be warmer all year long.  Plus it isn't that windy like parts of the lower slopes of the San Gabriel.  You are moving into zone 11     Have fun!

Happ,

I can't wait to get to El Sereno - less than two weeks now.  I don't think losing daytime heat in the summer will be a big deal, just a little bit slower growth.  Plus, I think the daily mean temperatures will probably be similar thanks to the warmer nights and 30 yrs without seeing frost is the kind of thing I like to hear

Jack

[elHoagie]

I went back yesterday... unfortunately I forgot my camera Anyway, the "forest" isn't a monoculture of black walnuts like I thought, probably 25-50% of the trees are other species that I can legally remove (I think).  Also, maybe half the walnuts are smaller than the cutoff of 4" diameter at breast height, so those could also be legally removed if I want to thin the canopy a little.