Madagascar’s Palms Near Extinction

[Dypsisdean]

For anyone interested.

"Eighty three percent of Madagascar's palms are threatened with extinction, putting the livelihoods of local people at risk according to the latest update of The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species"

http://www.iucn.org/news_homepage/?11273/Madagascars-palms-near-extinction

[Stevetoad]

That's awful. With all the palms ips members grow from Madagascar we may need to start sending seeds back to repopulate the island.

[Bencassa]

Its up to us now.

[KennyRE317]

That's awful. With all the palms ips members grow from Madagascar we may need to start sending seeds back to repopulate the island.

problem is they'll still cut the trees down faster than the palms will grow.

[Walter John]

I can't get/find confirmation but didn't a Chinese or South Korean company acquire a big chunk of the island to grow oil palms ? Has anybody got an info on this ?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I can't get/find confirmation but didn't a Chinese or South Korean company acquire a big chunk of the island to grow oil palms ? Has anybody got an info on this ?

it's Daewoo: Daewoo is leasing the vast tract of land - half the size of Belgium - for 99 years and hopes to produce 5 million tonnes of corn a year by 2023. see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7737643.stm, it's mostly corn but 300,000 acres are planned to be oil palms.

For anyone interested.

"Eighty three percent of Madagascars palms are threatened with extinction, putting the livelihoods of local people at risk according to the latest update of The IUCN Red List of Threatened Species"

http://www.iucn.org/news_homepage/?11273/Madagascars-palms-near-extinction

I saw they featured dypsis decipens and ambositrae, as well as tahina. The Madagascar germoplasm will probably survive in the hands of palm collectors. 80% of that stuff is East Coast rainforest stuff that will grow mostly in Hawaii and extreme Southern Florida. Time to move to Hawaii and buy a big plot of land to save Madagascar palms.

[Gtlevine]

That is an interesting Ravenea i was not familiar with. Does it go by a different name with the palm collector community?

[LJG]

I wonder if people know that IPS member dues go to help sending people to Madagascar and other places around the world to bring attention to these issues but in only one case (and only because a third party was involved that lives their) I know of from Madagascar have these people ever sent anything back to the members. I have no idea why these 'scientist' don't do more to put seed into an IPS seed bank to ensure survival. I have heard some crazy stories from people in the know that palms that could be on the brink of extinction with seed were not collected and distributed. In fact great efforts are put inplace to ensure locations of said palms are protected from seed collectors. Yeah I have heard their reasoning but I would assume ensuring palm survival would trump it.

[KennyRE317]

I wonder if people know that IPS member dues go to help sending people to Madagascar and other places around the world to bring attention to these issues but in only one case (and only because a third party was involved that lives their) I know of from Madagascar have these people ever sent anything back to the members. I have no idea why these 'scientist' don't do more to put seed into an IPS seed bank to ensure survival. I have heard some crazy stories from people in the know that palms that could be on the brink of extinction with seed were not collected and distributed. In fact great efforts are put inplace to ensure locations of said palms are protected from seed collectors. Yeah I have heard their reasoning but I would assume ensuring palm survival would trump it.

i'm curious to know why they would protect the palms from seed collectors

[richnorm]

Seems there are still plenty of people with the mindset of saving trophy species rather than habitats. Depressing.

[LJG]

I agree Rich. But starting small is better than not starting at all. Can't beat the likes of Daewoo so get what you can out before it is gone.

[Stevetoad]

i would look at it more like the california condor. they would have been extinct right now if we didnt capture every last one and breed them in captivity. now there are breeding populations in the wild because of that. i would think that leaving the few palms to try and self regenerate is foolish. to many factors can go wrong. get the seeds into the hands of collectors and let them grow. then we can return the seed back into habitat. just my 2 cents.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Seems there are still plenty of people with the mindset of saving trophy species rather than habitats. Depressing.

Unfortunately the world is made up of shades of gray, and compromise is usually the best way to combat problems, as purist solutions rarely work.

The best thing you can do to save habitat is to contribute money to family planning abroad - less population growth means less pressure on habitat. And stop supporting big fat corporations that have a bad track record. I recently redid my retirement funds to avoid the bastards and stick with socially responsible funds.

Meanwhile, the collector mindset is probably the only way many species are going to be saved from extinction. But if habitat protection is in place, then by all means protect the trees from seed collectors, otherwise they can't reproduce in habitat.

Interestingly enough, the most successful species have enlisted man as a means to survive and propagate.

[Zeeth]

i would look at it more like the california condor. they would have been extinct right now if we didnt capture every last one and breed them in captivity. now there are breeding populations in the wild because of that. i would think that leaving the few palms to try and self regenerate is foolish. to many factors can go wrong. get the seeds into the hands of collectors and let them grow. then we can return the seed back into habitat. just my 2 cents.

If I'm recalling correctly, Hyophorbe indica was extinct in the wild until a collector in Hawaii helped reintroduce it and now it's back in the wild and reproducing.

[paulgila]

I wonder if people know that IPS member dues go to help sending people to Madagascar and other places around the world to bring attention to these issues but in only one case (and only because a third party was involved that lives their) I know of from Madagascar have these people ever sent anything back to the members. I have no idea why these 'scientist' don't do more to put seed into an IPS seed bank to ensure survival. I have heard some crazy stories from people in the know that palms that could be on the brink of extinction with seed were not collected and distributed. In fact great efforts are put inplace to ensure locations of said palms are protected from seed collectors. Yeah I have heard their reasoning but I would assume ensuring palm survival would trump it.

why the quotes around "scientist," dewd?

[LJG]

I wonder if people know that IPS member dues go to help sending people to Madagascar and other places around the world to bring attention to these issues but in only one case (and only because a third party was involved that lives their) I know of from Madagascar have these people ever sent anything back to the members. I have no idea why these 'scientist' don't do more to put seed into an IPS seed bank to ensure survival. I have heard some crazy stories from people in the know that palms that could be on the brink of extinction with seed were not collected and distributed. In fact great efforts are put inplace to ensure locations of said palms are protected from seed collectors. Yeah I have heard their reasoning but I would assume ensuring palm survival would trump it.

why the quotes around "scientist," dewd?

Because some scientist seem to be more businessmen than scientist in some cases.

[paulgila]

is the converse true as well ?

[Dypsisdean]

i would look at it more like the california condor. they would have been extinct right now if we didnt capture every last one and breed them in captivity. now there are breeding populations in the wild because of that. i would think that leaving the few palms to try and self regenerate is foolish. to many factors can go wrong. get the seeds into the hands of collectors and let them grow. then we can return the seed back into habitat. just my 2 cents.

If I'm recalling correctly, Hyophorbe indica was extinct in the wild until a collector in Hawaii helped reintroduce it and now it's back in the wild and reproducing.

I would think a closely monitored program allowing for the collection of 5-10% of the endangered species' seed in order to be distributed to gardens (public and private) that were screened for the suitability of possibly growing a seeding adult, would go a long way in preserving a species.

At least in a species like Dypsis, one seeding adult in cultivation could easily save the species. And I doubt removing 5% of the seeds from the immediate location is going to make or break the natural situation. In fact, one fire would probably kill 100% of all seedlings in the area.

[Kim]

Some palms do well after a fire, notably Bismarckia. Seed collection in Madagascar is nothing like people imagine. Those who have been there will know what I mean. "Madagascar" and "closely monitored" are mutually exclusive terms, with very few exceptions; Tahina being one.

[LJG]

Some palms do well after a fire, notably Bismarckia. Seed collection in Madagascar is nothing like people imagine. Those who have been there will know what I mean. "Madagascar" and "closely monitored" are mutually exclusive terms, with very few exceptions; Tahina being one.

Kim, I have not been to Madagascar but I have been too much worse places. Unfortunately it is like this in all third world countries. Hence why it is important for these people on the ground do their part and distribute seed to RPS and people like Jeff Marcus. Tahina was the plant I referred to in my post above. We are very lucky Xavier Metz found these plants and alerted the world because had a 'scientist' been there first, I doubt this plant would be growing in all our gardens - IMHO.

[paulgila]

_{don't tell me yer one of those "anti-science" people,len.}

[LJG]

_{don't tell me yer one of those "anti-science" people,len.}

Yeah, so much so I have two degrees in it.

[sarasota alex]

I wonder if people know that IPS member dues go to help sending people to Madagascar and other places around the world to bring attention to these issues but in only one case (and only because a third party was involved that lives their) I know of from Madagascar have these people ever sent anything back to the members. I have no idea why these 'scientist' don't do more to put seed into an IPS seed bank to ensure survival. I have heard some crazy stories from people in the know that palms that could be on the brink of extinction with seed were not collected and distributed. In fact great efforts are put inplace to ensure locations of said palms are protected from seed collectors. Yeah I have heard their reasoning but I would assume ensuring palm survival would trump it.

i'm curious to know why they would protect the palms from seed collectors

Some of the proceeds from legal collections go to fund projects in local villages. This way the villagers have a vested interest in not cutting down palms and protecting seeds from poachers.

[HorsesnPalms]

I saw that RPS was selling Tahina spectabilis (Blessed Palm) seeds and includes the information about the proceeds going to the villagers. They are pricey, but so think they are worth getting to try growing.

I've always wanted to visit Madagascar, seems like at this rate the palms will be gone before I make it there.

[sarasota alex]

Wodyetia bifurcata has almost no chance of every disappearing. All because the seed were made available worldwide. Other recently discovered/rediscovered palms like Carpoxylon, Medemia, Tahina are now widely cultivated now and probably have a good future in cultivation even if anything was to happen to the remaining populations. Those are the "what to do" examples.

Then there is Saribus (formerly Pritchardiopsis) jeanneneyi. A "what not to do" example. The seed distribution is non-existent. The tightness of it resulted in that palm still being on the brink of extinction 33 years after its rediscovery. Had they simply allowed 10% or so, like Dean said, seeds to be distributed every year, there would be quite a few fruiting specimens in Hawaii by now.

[Hammer]

I tend to agree that private growers may be much more a part of the solution. My one concern is the maintenance of pure species. Hybridization could become an issue just as it has for the American bison for example.

[Jeff Searle]

Some palms do well after a fire, notably Bismarckia. Seed collection in Madagascar is nothing like people imagine. Those who have been there will know what I mean. "Madagascar" and "closely monitored" are mutually exclusive terms, with very few exceptions; Tahina being one.

Kim, I have not been to Madagascar but I have been too much worse places. Unfortunately it is like this in all third world countries. Hence why it is important for these people on the ground do their part and distribute seed to RPS and people like Jeff Marcus. Tahina was the plant I referred to in my post above. We are very lucky Xavier Metz found these plants and alerted the world because had a 'scientist' been there first, I doubt this plant would be growing in all our gardens - IMHO.

Len,

I'm curious, where have you been that's been "much worse" than Madagascar? I know there are many places on earth where poverty is seen at it's worst, but being through Mada, I thought I saw it all. I suppose areas in Pakistan, India, Haiti , etc. and other parts of the world are just as bad.

[Dr. George]

I tend to agree that private growers may be much more a part of the solution. My one concern is the maintenance of pure species. Hybridization could become an issue just as it has for the American bison for example.

Spot on. While maintaining native populations may be challenging and perhaps impossible, raising related species in relatively close proximity - say within the radius a bee can fly from a hive - just opens the door to bastardizing the gene pool. A rescue effort for a species needs to be carefully planned and executed. If you are trying to save Przewalski's horses, you don't house them in the same pasture with domestic horses, donkeys and zebras.

gmp

[sarasota alex]

I tend to agree that private growers may be much more a part of the solution. My one concern is the maintenance of pure species. Hybridization could become an issue just as it has for the American bison for example.

Spot on. While maintaining native populations may be challenging and perhaps impossible, raising related species in relatively close proximity - say within the radius a bee can fly from a hive - just opens the door to bastardizing the gene pool. A rescue effort for a species needs to be carefully planned and executed. If you are trying to save Przewalski's horses, you don't house them in the same pasture with domestic horses, donkeys and zebras.

gmp

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

[Hammer]

I tend to agree that private growers may be much more a part of the solution. My one concern is the maintenance of pure species. Hybridization could become an issue just as it has for the American bison for example.

Spot on. While maintaining native populations may be challenging and perhaps impossible, raising related species in relatively close proximity - say within the radius a bee can fly from a hive - just opens the door to bastardizing the gene pool. A rescue effort for a species needs to be carefully planned and executed. If you are trying to save Przewalski's horses, you don't house them in the same pasture with domestic horses, donkeys and zebras.

gmp

I remember in one of video tours of Floribunda on Palmpedia, Jeff Marcus was talking about how when a rare Dypsis flowers they remove inflorescences from all other Dypsis nearby to keep the seeds pure. I just think he is doing a great thing there with that

That's awesome. Hopefully we (IPS) can get the rest of world's private growers, as well as commercial ones to follow that best practice.

[LJG]

Some palms do well after a fire, notably Bismarckia. Seed collection in Madagascar is nothing like people imagine. Those who have been there will know what I mean. "Madagascar" and "closely monitored" are mutually exclusive terms, with very few exceptions; Tahina being one.

Kim, I have not been to Madagascar but I have been too much worse places. Unfortunately it is like this in all third world countries. Hence why it is important for these people on the ground do their part and distribute seed to RPS and people like Jeff Marcus. Tahina was the plant I referred to in my post above. We are very lucky Xavier Metz found these plants and alerted the world because had a 'scientist' been there first, I doubt this plant would be growing in all our gardens - IMHO.

Len,

I'm curious, where have you been that's been "much worse" than Madagascar? I know there are many places on earth where poverty is seen at it's worst, but being through Mada, I thought I saw it all. I suppose areas in Pakistan, India, Haiti , etc. and other parts of the world are just as bad.

Contact me offline. Happy to share. Heading to Myanmar next.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Some palms do well after a fire, notably Bismarckia. Seed collection in Madagascar is nothing like people imagine. Those who have been there will know what I mean. "Madagascar" and "closely monitored" are mutually exclusive terms, with very few exceptions; Tahina being one.

Kim, I have not been to Madagascar but I have been too much worse places. Unfortunately it is like this in all third world countries. Hence why it is important for these people on the ground do their part and distribute seed to RPS and people like Jeff Marcus. Tahina was the plant I referred to in my post above. We are very lucky Xavier Metz found these plants and alerted the world because had a 'scientist' been there first, I doubt this plant would be growing in all our gardens - IMHO.

Len is right, a lot of science does get prostituted for business. Citrus is another perfect example of this. UC Riverside has gotten stingy with some new varieties, not releasing anything to the public. They basically hord the gene pool until they find a lucrative grower that is willing to pay the big bucks to get their hands on a variety, thus making the variety very rare.

Many scientists and institutions tend to be elitist in nature and will lean towards hoarding the gene pool. In the case of Saribus jeanneneyi, there was only one specimen that they found, and they did distribute some of the seed, but in an elitist way, no private collectors, only other "scientific" institutions such as botanical gardens. There's one growing in Nancy, France.

Ironically, you can easily find the single specimen as it is marked on maps. By limiting the seed distribution, they've effectively raised the pressure on the species because I am sure there are some very rich private collectors willing to pay big bucks to get their hands on seeds, which encourages poachers. But that is also what these institutions want - to raise the value so they can raise funds from the rich collectors willing to pay a fortune for just one palm.

[paulgila]

i am perplexed by the amount of science bashing these days.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

i am perplexed by the amount of science bashing these days.

I am perplexed by the amount of non-science done in the name of science these days. I have a PhD in Physics, I'm entitled to be critical of my own creed.

[paulgila]

i have been a musician for 35 years but no one believes that i am a better music critic than they are

[LJG]

i am perplexed by the amount of science bashing these days.

We should be! Scientist are not infallible. Big business seems to find science in their favor quite a bit lately. Money talks.

[paulgila]

some skepticism is healthy,as with anything,i agree.

[sonoranfans]

i am perplexed by the amount of science bashing these days.

Science has been a little to reluctant to police itself in recent decades, this is where the public bashing comes from. In some cases immature science is presented by journalists, later proven incorrect, and that sullies the standing of all science in the eyes of the public. the use of science in politics has also sullied the image of science. Both business and the government fund science and often they specify a desired outcome for continued funding. This is as far from real science as you can get. Scientists are often wrong, as this is part of the learning process, but it is a process that ends up being on display for all to see. As a scientist, critical thinking is an invaluable part of science, but it appears that politicians and business people want to manipulate the reported result instead of finding a (relative) truth. When scientists agree to this madness -and many do even in academia- they are little more than prostitutes for the big money(business or government). Yeah its a tough world, where pastors and yes scientists are corrupted by money...

[mike in kurtistown]

I'm not sure that business is the problem with the ridiculous rules that prevail on seed collecting, sale, shipping, or rare species ownership or propagation. Of course, protecting the remaining plants is highly desirable. But the rules are made by non-scientist politicians wanting headlines or bureaucrats with a narrow or incorrect understanding of the problem - the effect of seed collecting on the remaining plants of a rare species. And have any such rules ever been unmade or rolled back in any way? Regulations are as eternal as death and taxes.

I have heard of some concessions being made in my state where a business is licensed to sell plants of rare species with dire warnings to the buyer not to propagate the plant. Perhaps the authorities trust the business not to raid the wild plants populations for seeds, but to use domestic sources. Otherwise, the owner of a rare plant is assumed to have obtained plant or seed from the wild population unless they can prove otherwise, even if those populations are remote, nearly inaccessible, or at unknown locations.

I agree with earlier suggestions that seed collection should be done by the authorities for distribution to the public, no reason for any restrictions except possibly on quantity. Most plants are factories for production of their own propagative material, and produce it way in access of demand from the small number of individuals or businesses that would have an interest in them.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

I'm not sure that business is the problem with the ridiculous rules that prevail on seed collecting, sale, shipping, or rare species ownership or propagation. Of course, protecting the remaining plants is highly desirable. But the rules are made by non-scientist politicians wanting headlines or bureaucrats with a narrow or incorrect understanding of the problem - the effect of seed collecting on the remaining plants of a rare species. And have any such rules ever been unmade or rolled back in any way? Regulations are as eternal as death and taxes.

I have heard of some concessions being made in my state where a business is licensed to sell plants of rare species with dire warnings to the buyer not to propagate the plant. Perhaps the authorities trust the business not to raid the wild plants populations for seeds, but to use domestic sources. Otherwise, the owner of a rare plant is assumed to have obtained plant or seed from the wild population unless they can prove otherwise, even if those populations are remote, nearly inaccessible, or at unknown locations.

I agree with earlier suggestions that seed collection should be done by the authorities for distribution to the public, no reason for any restrictions except possibly on quantity. Most plants are factories for production of their own propagative material, and produce it way in access of demand from the small number of individuals or businesses that would have an interest in them.

It's scientists turned bureaucrats and politicians enlisting science to do their deed.