Hello

I got 3 Pseudophoenix vinifera 2 months ago from a nursery in Germany. The plants originally were grown in the Canary Islands but were overwintered by the nursery i got them in a greenhouse in Germany.

Upon arrival,the plants had various black lesions on their crownshaft. Over the time i have had them,most lesions turned grey in the center and a little sunken,with a thin black ring on the outside or totally grey. There hasnt been much progress of the disease while i have had them but some new black spots do have formed on the petioles and the leaflets of some leafs.

What is this? The symptoms seem somewhat similar to Pseudophoenix decline but the plants come from the Canaries and i also read that only flowering specimens develop this disease,not young plants. How safe would it be to assume its something else and not Pseudophoenix decline? Does it seem like something serious to you that could infect other healthy palms around where i ground plant them or something minor like certain infections seen in greenhouse grown plants from the high humidity or condensation that pretty much only occur in there and never appear again in the field? I want to start ground planting them in Pyrgos but have been afraid to do so so far. I keep them in Melissia,300km away from my palms in Pyrgos!

Thank you very much in advance!

I see notthing to worry about in these pics. Beware, P. vinifera that are stretched like that will sunburn a little, and the leaves will shrink by half once planted out in sun.

NOT A GOOD POSITION, where they are They run immediate risk of perishing.

Good to hear that Matty! I am not used to seeing lesions like these on the crownshaft though and thats what worries me. What could these be from?

Regarding the sun burn,they have been in this position with sun from midday to afternoon for 2 months now and dont show much burn if any,maybe some tip die back may be from the sun? Dont know as its a little blackish in color. The ones currently holding 3 leafs though do are slowly getting rid of their oldest one,yellowing it and drying it,maybe due to the higher water needs sun creates or from me letting them dry out a little too much till 2 weeks ago,wanting to be sure there is no rot going on at the root system and also get the feel of how to grow them since i have never grown Pseudophoenix before. I do had an idea of what they may like from growing Coccothrinax and find them somewhat similar so far. Starting from the past 2 weeks,i water them the day before the sand will dry out(i find it dries on its whole mass pretty much the same day,maybe because the pots are small,so 2-3days after watering them,the sand will be half moist in the morning,showing some dry spots on the surface but some moist ones too and the same afternoon it will be completely dry down to the bottom,stressing the palm,so i water on that morning,before it totally dries out). Do you think that is a good watering practice for Pseudophoenix vinifera?

Thanks for letting me know these plants are stretched out and will shrink,i thought this was their normal,sun grown size and would be wondering what i did wrong with them if they grew a smaller leaf after some time!

Do you find these easy to rot in the ground and needing a very rocky/sandy soil composition or are they fine with soil containing organics and clay?

Thank you for your reply Phoenikakias! What do you mean? Something to do with moving them to Pyrgos the soonest possible?

Good to hear that Matty! I am not used to seeing lesions like these on the crownshaft though and thats what worries me. What could these be from?

Regarding the sun burn,they have been in this position with sun from midday to afternoon for 2 months now and dont show much burn if any,maybe some tip die back may be from the sun? Dont know as its a little blackish in color. The ones currently holding 3 leafs though do are slowly getting rid of their oldest one,yellowing it and drying it,maybe due to the higher water needs sun creates or from me letting them dry out a little too much till 2 weeks ago,wanting to be sure there is no rot going on at the root system and also get the feel of how to grow them since i have never grown Pseudophoenix before. I do had an idea of what they may like from growing Coccothrinax and find them somewhat similar so far. Starting from the past 2 weeks,i water them the day before the sand will dry out(i find it dries on its whole mass pretty much the same day,maybe because the pots are small,so 2-3days after watering them,the sand will be half moist in the morning,showing some dry spots on the surface but some moist ones too and the same afternoon it will be completely dry down to the bottom,stressing the palm,so i water on that morning,before it totally dries out). Do you think that is a good watering practice for Pseudophoenix vinifera?

Thanks for letting me know these plants are stretched out and will shrink,i thought this was their normal,sun grown size and would be wondering what i did wrong with them if they grew a smaller leaf after some time!

Do you find these easy to rot in the ground and needing a very rocky/sandy soil composition or are they fine with soil containing organics and clay?

Thank you for your reply Phoenikakias! What do you mean? Something to do with moving them to Pyrgos the soonest possible?

i have quite a P. sargentii's of various sizes liners, 1gal, 3gal, 5gal, 7gal and even my larger 7gal ones are only holding 4 leaves still. i have a spear opening on a 7gal and the oldest frond is yellowing about halfway right now. I've exchanged a few PMs with a PT member and he stated that it's pretty normal (at least for sargentii) to only hold only 4 fronds in a single vertical plane until it gets larger

If you leave pots just like that further, the two potted specimens in foreground will be history by September. If the whole genus is oligotrophic and adapted to poor skeletal soils like Thrinax radiata, I had success with outplanting a Thrinax having used only gravel and pumice. There are some palms here like Brahea nitida and Pseudophoenix sargentii, which as potted specimens do much better in shade with very low humidity (like in Drapetsona) during summer and die in sunny places with higher air humidity. Call me crazy, but same thing has repeatedly occured here with those spss.

I think I have provided you with enough clues to figure out on your own the rational explanation for my unpleasant prediction

If you leave pots just like that further, the two potted specimens in foreground will be history by September. If the whole genus is oligotrophic and adapted to poor skeletal soils like Thrinax radiata, I had success with outplanting a Thrinax having used only gravel and pumice. There are some palms here like Brahea nitida and Pseudophoenix sargentii, which as potted specimens do much better in shade with very low humidity (like in Drapetsona) during summer and die in sunny places with higher air humidity. Call me crazy, but same thing has repeatedly occured here with those spss.

Ok here is a recent pic of my T radiata. It has pushed so far this growing season two leaves is on the way to third and one more little spear has just started appearing. All greenhouse leaves are either already dessicated or on the fast way to it but also production of new leaves accelerates. It had only the lightest possible protection during last winter, but admittedly I blast it with watering all summer long.

So I suggest you do something similiar with your gorgeous pseudophoenix, before it is to late!

Edited July 4, 201312 yr by Phoenikakias

Any available update Kostas?

The Pseudophoenix vinifera are all ok,and passed all summer exactly where they were in the photos with no problems from the sun hitting their pots(that position does get sun but not excessive lateral sun,I knew they woul be fine there). During fall,when weather started cooling,I moved them to Pyrgos to overwinter there along with all my bigger potted bananas. They overwintered fine there with no watering,relying on the rain which is frequent enough to keep everything wet all fall,winter and spring. They got some mottling on the leafs like they have gotten cold damaged some but there is no necrotic tissue yet,so damage remains to be seen. If they did indeed cold damage some,it would be surprising as the bananas kept their leafs right beside them,with just little cold damage. But it could be that the greenhouse grown leafs they had were sensitive and acclimated leafs won't have such problems. They all seem way more robust than when I got them and their base has fattened up nicely and considerably! It seems to me they will grow fine here and don't seem to be rot prone once established in their pots and daily highs are good,despite the rains and possible cold night lows.

It's still too early to draw any definite conclusions as this was their first winter from greenhouse grown plants and have only grown 1leaf each on me so far. They are also potted and not in ground as they would like. And cold damage,if they indeed have,hasn't shown itself yet well.

Now,regarding the markings on the crownshaft,they don't seem to have spread any and the oldest leaf dried as soon as a new one opened,so its steady at 3 leafs but much thicker and robust looking than it was. I think these markings were a result of some kind of mild rot that occurred before I got it and in the early establishing phase in the pot but stopped once warm weather arrived last spring,never to spread any more again.

Regarding the Pseudophoenix decline,I read on a study published in Palms magazine that it only appears on mature,flowering plants and it's not documented in younger palms,it's said not to infect younger ones and P. vinifera seems relatively tolerant as they usually only get it lightly and not as severe and disfiguring or lethal as in P. sargenti. But according to that study,what my palms shouldn't be Pseudophoenix decline and doesn't totally fit with it but with fungal damage of lesser importance. Well,hopefully,at least that's what the signs mostly conclude to.

Thank you Kostas for your exaustive answer. Right now i am planting a 2mts vinifera, came from medipalm last summer, standing in pot during the winter but i failed as i overwatered it. Now i am trying to save it.

Plant it in the ground using a mix of mostly sand mixed with pumice and 20% organic matter. I would only water well once to settle the soil and leave it dry very well before watering again,so probably no water for a month. Once the weather warms up well,they like their water but with cool weather while establishing,water only causes problems. Fortunately rain is better than watering and being in the ground,rot problems should be fewer as drainage is usually better if planted in an appropriate soil mix and mounded.

Wish you the best of luck with it,a 2m P. vinifera certainly is spectacular

Plant it in the ground using a mix of mostly sand mixed with pumice and 20% organic matter. I would only water well once to settle the soil and leave it dry very well before watering again,so probably no water for a month. Once the weather warms up well,they like their water but with cool weather while establishing,water only causes problems. Fortunately rain is better than watering and being in the ground,rot problems should be fewer as drainage is usually better if planted in an appropriate soil mix and mounded.

Wish you the best of luck with it,a 2m P. vinifera certainly is spectacular

Thank you very much for your advisements Kostas. This palm is already in the ground, with a mix of mostly sand with some organic matter. I wont water it the next weeks, as we have been receiving lots of rainfall and the soil is wet despite good drainage.

This winter we had tons of rainfall, as i never remembered in the past and dypsis decipiens laugh with it, rain water is always accepted, with good drainage, off course

Looks good,i see the characteristic markings of root rot on the leafs but they arent severe,so it should recover fine,just dont water at all till very very dry. The irrigation of the other palms around it is enough to supply it with the water needed so i wouldnt water around this one till hot weather arrives for good,no water till then other than rain. I would also pull the mulch away for half a meter around its trunk to offer faster drying and i would have planted it on a slight mound(say 10-15cm high with a wide raised area to look natural and not wash away)would have used mostly(80-100%) sand,rock or pumice at least for the upper 10cm of the fill around its base. The soil in the picture seems to have too much clay in it which is risky for coastal species like Pseudophoenix during their establishing phase,where they are most vulnerable. Especially close to their base.

You know how slow Pseudophoenix are,so better leave the leafs on even when thrashed as they contribute something. Expect 1-2leafs a year after it recovers,i see its spear is starting to open which will help some

How much rain did you get the last year? Pyrgos got 1243mm

Thanks for your precious tips Kostas!

I have already removed the mulch around.

The rootball is sit on 4 cm deep area with rocks to improve drainage.

Around the rootball there is only mostly sandy soil.

Concerning to the rainfall i cant quantify, but it has been raining for the last 50 consecutive days, less the recent 10 days and we have a forecast of dry climate the next couple of weeks.

Kostas and Rafael, in our climate, which is definitely cooler in mean temps and moister than the one in SCa or Az during winter, I would treat an outplanted Pseudophoenix similiarly to a desert palm. Agreed, that this method requires a lot of water during summer, not good at all in terms of conservation, but many of us as genuine palm nuts would grant themselves one or a couple of exception. Please take in to consideration that current winter has been for Europe fairly mild. This however does not mean similiar winter season in the future! Let imagine the cosequences for a Pseudophoenix if it has to grow in a colder and equally moist soil...

Sounds good Rafael,the dry weather and resulting extra warmth from the sun should help it some and good growing weather is ahead of us real soon!

If you know of a nearby weather station,they usually record the annual precipitation of the area. It's always interesting to know but with 50 consecutive days or rain,it does should be a lot! With rain,everything grows so much more and lush!

Wish your Pseudophoenix fast establishing,it should look awesome again real soon!!!

Konstantinos,

I agree,I do not water any of my Caribbean species in winter but then again,I water nothing in winter except some ferns and epiphytes,rain is more than enough to keep everything wet from October to April/May...I bet Rafael's climate is equally rainy.

But Pyrgos is far warmer than Athens in winter and Rafael has a great climate as well.

Here(in Pyrgos),other than a slight mounding or simply planting with 10-20cm of sandy/rocky topsoil,nothing else is needed,at least for the Coccothrinax alexandrii var. alexandrii I have been growing for 3-4winters here,one which being a bad one for Pyrgos. This has been a wet winter for Pyrgos but Coccothrinax are fine and enjoying it even though cats buried one in mulch for a month or two before I cleaned it up. I havent found Pseudophoenix vinifera to be any different,maybe they are even easier to grow or I have just adjusted to the growing needs of Coccothrinax and understand them better and faster now,as they do fine for me potted so far. They aren't too easy to rot,just a little heat needy and sensitive while acclimating and establishing at first,then they tolerate quite a lot of cool and rain,lots of rain!

Sounds good Rafael,the dry weather and resulting extra warmth from the sun should help it some and good growing weather is ahead of us real soon!

If you know of a nearby weather station,they usually record the annual precipitation of the area. It's always interesting to know but with 50 consecutive days or rain,it does should be a lot! With rain,everything grows so much more and lush!

Wish your Pseudophoenix fast establishing,it should look awesome again real soon!!!

Konstantinos,

I agree,I do not water any of my Caribbean species in winter but then again,I water nothing in winter except some ferns and epiphytes,rain is more than enough to keep everything wet from October to April/May...I bet Rafael's climate is equally rainy.

But Pyrgos is far warmer than Athens in winter and Rafael has a great climate as well.

Here(in Pyrgos),other than a slight mounding or simply planting with 10-20cm of sandy/rocky topsoil,nothing else is needed,at least for the Coccothrinax alexandrii var. alexandrii I have been growing for 3-4winters here,one which being a bad one for Pyrgos. This has been a wet winter for Pyrgos but Coccothrinax are fine and enjoying it even though cats buried one in mulch for a month or two before I cleaned it up. I havent found Pseudophoenix vinifera to be any different,maybe they are even easier to grow or I have just adjusted to the growing needs of Coccothrinax and understand them better and faster now,as they do fine for me potted so far. They aren't too easy to rot,just a little heat needy and sensitive while acclimating and establishing at first,then they tolerate quite a lot of cool and rain,lots of rain!

I think Portugal due to Atlantic is even moister; have you had in Pyrgos this winter 50 consequtive rainy days?

If by 'Athens' you mean also city center and southern suburbs I doubt so! How come that last year my Dioon spinulosum in the far colder Athens flushed a couple of months earlier than yours in the far warmer Pyrgos? Attica has many microclimates with considerable differencies.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have read recently that Dr D changes basic soil completely up to 3 m depth. If this may sound excessively radical, imo only 10-10 cm analogically is to little.

And last but not least the most beautiful and healthiest Pseudophoenix I have seen in this forum outside real subtropical and tropical areas are these growing in Az, and this should mean something to you!

I am not sure,could have though,October,November and December had almost constant rainy weather and poured big time! Your annual rainfall in just a couple of months from the 9 rainy Pyrgos has. New year has been much drier.

I say Pyrgos is much warmer in winter from Athens city center and southern suburbs. You surely do have some good microclimates in southern suburbs and city center but each day warms up much slower and cools faster in Athens. Daily highs are also lower in winter and night lows reached faster than in Pyrgos and sustained much longer. Athens can get below 0C and stay there all day on rare occasions. Never in Pyrgos even during the record cold winters,once the sun is out,temperature shoots much above 5C and mostly above 13C even after the coldest nights of the winter. That's what I mean. You can see that checking the weather stations of these areas. Athens can spend days with 5C daily max,Pyrgos doesn't stay below 10C.

I do not claim to grow my Dioon spinulossum well and they do not get anywhere near the sun yours get,they sunburn sometimes with much less in summer(probably due to the changing sun angle,they get full shade in winter and some sun in summer). They also frost damage for me almost annually which I hate,they only hold a single flush's worth of good leafs and only flush 4. But they do get bigger each time and as the years pass,my canopy is trying to engulf them and stop the frost damage. This winter they didn't damage but it was a mild one. So,with all that,would you expect my Dioon spinulossum to flush sooner or more leafs? I don't,I am just glad they grow...I also seldom fertilize them and not much,I should be giving them much more. They pretty much live on their own like many of my ground planted plants...

I don't know what we could compare and if it's even possible to compare winter warmth with the growth of plants in spring but my W. robusta(Sonora) went from seed to full size leafs and trunking in 2,5-3years. But I don't think that says anything regarding winter warmth. Marginal plant survivability is more relevant I think,especially those needing heat to not rot or die. I grow many marginals.

My soil is neutral in general,not basic. Around 7,5pH and topsoil acidic from the decaying organic matter. The only reason I suggest the top 10-20cm cm around a Pseudophoenix or other Caribbean species to be sandy/rocky is to offer better drainage at the base while the plant is adjusting so that the root initiation zone is not stressed and can grow many new roots if current ones have problems dealing with the new soil conditions they find themselves in after ground planting or potting in new soil. After it establishes an acclimated root system,it doesn't have problems dealing with the native soil if it's well draining and mine and Rafael's is. Your native,rocky soil would be too but the imported , terraced soil,I don't know.

The most beautiful Pseudophoenix I have seen outside of subtropics are in central Florida,grown in semi shade in soaking wet sandy soil! The most beautiful of all I have seen,a P. vinifera,was in Fairchild,at the margins of subtropics. The leafs are so much bigger and lax in humid conditions than in the desert.

I am not sure,could have though,October,November and December had almost constant rainy weather and poured big time! Your annual rainfall in just a couple of months from the 9 rainy Pyrgos has. New year has been much drier.

I say Pyrgos is much warmer in winter from Athens city center and southern suburbs. You surely do have some good microclimates in southern suburbs and city center but each day warms up much slower and cools faster in Athens. Daily highs are also lower in winter and night lows reached faster than in Pyrgos and sustained much longer. Athens can get below 0C and stay there all day on rare occasions. Never in Pyrgos even during the record cold winters,once the sun is out,temperature shoots much above 5C and mostly above 13C even after the coldest nights of the winter. That's what I mean. You can see that checking the weather stations of these areas. Athens can spend days with 5C daily max,Pyrgos doesn't stay below 10C.

I do not claim to grow my Dioon spinulossum well and they do not get anywhere near the sun yours get,they sunburn sometimes with much less in summer(probably due to the changing sun angle,they get full shade in winter and some sun in summer). They also frost damage for me almost annually which I hate,they only hold a single flush's worth of good leafs and only flush 4. But they do get bigger each time and as the years pass,my canopy is trying to engulf them and stop the frost damage. This winter they didn't damage but it was a mild one. So,with all that,would you expect my Dioon spinulossum to flush sooner or more leafs? I don't,I am just glad they grow...I also seldom fertilize them and not much,I should be giving them much more. They pretty much live on their own like many of my ground planted plants...

I don't know what we could compare and if it's even possible to compare winter warmth with the growth of plants in spring but my W. robusta(Sonora) went from seed to full size leafs and trunking in 2,5-3years. But I don't think that says anything regarding winter warmth. Marginal plant survivability is more relevant I think,especially those needing heat to not rot or die. I grow many marginals.

My soil is neutral in general,not basic. Around 7,5pH and topsoil acidic from the decaying organic matter. The only reason I suggest the top 10-20cm cm around a Pseudophoenix or other Caribbean species to be sandy/rocky is to offer better drainage at the base while the plant is adjusting so that the root initiation zone is not stressed and can grow many new roots if current ones have problems dealing with the new soil conditions they find themselves in after ground planting or potting in new soil. After it establishes an acclimated root system,it doesn't have problems dealing with the native soil if it's well draining and mine and Rafael's is. Your native,rocky soil would be too but the imported , terraced soil,I don't know.

The most beautiful Pseudophoenix I have seen outside of subtropics are in central Florida,grown in semi shade in soaking wet sandy soil! The most beautiful of all I have seen,a P. vinifera,was in Fairchild,at the margins of subtropics. The leafs are so much bigger and lax in humid conditions than in the desert.

I agree with you that in rare occasions an arctic blast hits Athens, Pyrgos has much less chances to be affected equally. After this basta! You said it alone that you get frost damage on your Dioon spinulosum almost every year. How come that mine in the 'much colder' Athens without tree canopy above does not? I am sure you know also quite well that apart from temperature there are also many, many other factors (humidity, wind, soil, ground moisture, max temps-yes even this for oceanic palms-), which affect successful growing and even individual cold hardiness in the coming winter! You can not present a place just a couple hundred km from Attica to have such a difference in climate, like SoC and NoCa! I have never seen inhabitants in Pyrgos to walk during winter with short trousers, t-shirts and sandals! As whole Greece in so few parallels has almost USDA zones accumulated, also in the same manner has Attica so many microclimates. For example in my mother-in;law's garden just 250 meters away from my garden, climate is considerably less windy and more humid, simply because my propertry lies on the one side of a curve of the slope and hers on the other, and yes a mild winter affects also time of resuming spring growth, I thought you knew already this!

Frost damage doesnt mean that the place isnt warmer. Its just wet enough that i get frost with close to 0C temperatures and the plants are in active growth when frost hits them,as the weather doesnt cool before the frosts,it can be 20-25C during the day of the frost event. Do you get such temperature range during winter days? I guess not. My plants never go dormant enough to build cold hardiness,thus they damage earlier as Florida plants also do.

Well,you do can sit outside all year long during noon and not feel cold with a long sleeve shirt in the middle of winter. And till late December,shorts and T's are justifiable. I wear flip flops all year long in the garden,but then i also do in Melissia...The difference is i dont feel cold in Pyrgos.

There certainly are many microclimates in the southern suburbs and some quite good. Its the only place i would like to live in the Athens area,the southern suburbs(Voula mainly) and Schinias/Marathonas. I like Pyrgos better but my work is in Athens so far and predicted to remain here unfortunately,so a house there is in my short-term plans.

Just 250m away from your house and the microclimate is so different(and i see many difference within just my garden as well as outside town,i totally agree with what you say),imagine 200km away,crossing to western Greece,how different the climate is. Even the whole flora of western Greece is different from eastern Greece. And the climate is equally different as well as the factors affecting it.

A mild winter does affect spring growth but not in a predictable way. For example,the almond trees in Melissia are just now blooming,which is late for them. Does that mean the winter was not mild? Even my banana kept its leafs through winter here! In the same way,plants like Dioon spinulossum are unpredictable because they grow in flushes and they dont have a set time for flushing new leafs. And they want enough light,fertilizer,water and soil to their likings to grow well,mine have to fend for themselves. Certain cycads dont flush every year for me because their spots dont offer them exactly what they would like. Dioon are in the semi-happy category. Cant compare their growth rate and growth initiation to pampered ones like yours and blame the climate for that! Leave yours to fend for themselves in summer and then let me know how many leafs they flush the next years and if they pull through...Not receiving enough nutrients and water in summer slows down their growth as they dont build as high energy reserves as they could.

Frost damage doesnt mean that the place isnt warmer. Its just wet enough that i get frost with close to 0C temperatures and the plants are in active growth when frost hits them,as the weather doesnt cool before the frosts,it can be 20-25C during the day of the frost event. Do you get such temperature range during winter days? I guess not. My plants never go dormant enough to build cold hardiness,thus they damage earlier as Florida plants also do.

Well,you do can sit outside all year long during noon and not feel cold with a long sleeve shirt in the middle of winter. And till late December,shorts and T's are justifiable. I wear flip flops all year long in the garden,but then i also do in Melissia...The difference is i dont feel cold in Pyrgos.

There certainly are many microclimates in the southern suburbs and some quite good. Its the only place i would like to live in the Athens area,the southern suburbs(Voula mainly) and Schinias/Marathonas. I like Pyrgos better but my work is in Athens so far and predicted to remain here unfortunately,so a house there is in my short-term plans.

Just 250m away from your house and the microclimate is so different(and i see many difference within just my garden as well as outside town,i totally agree with what you say),imagine 200km away,crossing to western Greece,how different the climate is. Even the whole flora of western Greece is different from eastern Greece. And the climate is equally different as well as the factors affecting it.

A mild winter does affect spring growth but not in a predictable way. For example,the almond trees in Melissia are just now blooming,which is late for them. Does that mean the winter was not mild? Even my banana kept its leafs through winter here! In the same way,plants like Dioon spinulossum are unpredictable because they grow in flushes and they dont have a set time for flushing new leafs. And they want enough light,fertilizer,water and soil to their likings to grow well,mine have to fend for themselves. Certain cycads dont flush every year for me because their spots dont offer them exactly what they would like. Dioon are in the semi-happy category. Cant compare their growth rate and growth initiation to pampered ones like yours and blame the climate for that! Leave yours to fend for themselves in summer and then let me know how many leafs they flush the next years and if they pull through...Not receiving enough nutrients and water in summer slows down their growth as they dont build as high energy reserves as they could.

I've been in Kalamata in late October and in an even warmer place, Analipsi, same season and I assure you it is not a dramatic difference from my garden. Besides I always work like this in my garden! Well almond trees in my place have bloomed in mid January.

Edited February 28, 201412 yr by Phoenikakias

October is still early fall,temperature differences aren't great then,except than it rains more. From November-December,when things cool down in Athens,the difference is much greater as it doesn't cool down in Pyrgos but 20-25C daily highs continue to mid-late December. Daily highs are generally kept higher than Athens from then on till mid-late spring

Mid-January is their usual season in Melissia but they were late this year,flowering from the beginning of this week. All of them,not just a tree. There are many variables,mild winter alone doesn't wake them up early. Same with cycads,we can't know. Palms and other tropicals grow continually in Pyrgos through winter,they never stop and with warmer weather,they just grow faster.

October is still early fall,temperature differences aren't great then,except than it rains more. From November-December,when things cool down in Athens,the difference is much greater as it doesn't cool down in Pyrgos but 20-25C daily highs continue to mid-late December. Daily highs are generally kept higher than Athens from then on till mid-late spring

Mid-January is their usual season in Melissia but they were late this year,flowering from the beginning of this week. All of them,not just a tree. There are many variables,mild winter alone doesn't wake them up early. Same with cycads,we can't know. Palms and other tropicals grow continually in Pyrgos through winter,they never stop and with warmer weather,they just grow faster.

Yet late October is a very significant milestone to distinguish a considerably warmer climate in N.H. You have only to be at that time in Cyprus or southern Crete, or Rhodos You just do not get it enough; you live in cold spot in Attica which nevertheless is more wind protected than southerly coastal areas, and you can not understand the havoc wind alone in winter can induce on rainforest palms regardless temperartures

Kostas, I don't believe either that the difference between Pyrgos and southern Athens is that significant. In fact it is more than probable that southern Athens has a higher average of night time lows during winter, and I'm pretty sure that nights below freezing are a much rarer phenomenon in Athens than in Pyrgos. Since 2005 that I started to monitor closely the temperature in my area, there have only been 2 nights with temps below freezing, which was an isolated weekend with snow in February 2008. Before that, from the data I have collected there was also a night in 2004 and basically that was all for the last decade. I am sure (and correct me if I'm wrong) that Pyrgos has seen many more nights below freezing between 2004-2014. Also, Pyrgos is much more rainy during winter (consequently, less sunny) and there is always the danger of frost, which is non-existent in (much drier) southern Athens.

As for the daytime highs, from what I've seen by checking every now and then, sometimes Pyrgos is a couple of degrees warmer than Athens and sometimes it's a couple of degrees cooler. Today for example the forecast for Athens is 16 to 12C and for Pyrgos, 13 to 9C, which means Pyrgos today is significantly cooler than Athens. Overall it makes sense to say that Pyrgos has a higher average of daytime highs during winter, since it's more southward than Athens, but I can not believe that Pyrgos is warmer than Crete, the most southern island of Greece that faces the Libyan Sea (hundreds of miles further to the south than Pyrgos, opposite to North Africa) and itself very rarely gets temps of 25C in December.

Edited February 28, 201412 yr by basilios

I am not judging Athens's climate from Melissia,where i live. Melissia are at 350m elevation,at the foot of Pentelis mountain and get way colder in winter than most areas of Athens. I consider Athens to be the Athens county and the southern suburbs,the climatically better areas of Athens as i dont care for the colder ones.

I can assure you,i know how bad wind is first hand as my place in Melissia is very windy,the wind chill from the northern winds in winter is unreal. I hate every windy day here and they are really many and the winds extremely strong many times. I get all the northern winds,you get all the southern ones,which i am sure are bad too for the rainforest palms as they carry salt,are dehydrating and chilling to them. In Pyrgos,i dont get cold winds,almost none at all. I do get hurricane force winds with lots of rain sometimes,like a tropical cyclone(and true hurricanes every few years but of short duration,the area is famed for them),but they are warm and wet winds. Cold winds are rare and very light,they enhance frost damage though in the rare occasions they have occurred.

Basilios,i think that its your microclimate where you grow your palms that is warm,otherwise Athens has seen many freezes in the past years. They should be mostly dry freezes as you say and probably just a bit more inland than you are as the sea influence is too great where you are. Plus,if you measure the temperature at your balcony level,your elevation puts you in frost free zone in radiational freezes,so the chance of measuring below 0C is quite low where you are. But down at ground level,a freeze can occur when you measure as high as 3C or more. The space right around a building remains warmer too and can be kept above 0C from the buildings heat.

Regardless of that,Pyrgos gets around 2-3 nights around freezing each year,other years above freezing and others below(always measured at the most exposed spots in the North). Freezes are radiational and mostly wet as dew forms on the leafs most nights of the year,thus if it freezes,there is most always frost unless there is overhead canopy. Thus,without canopy,the freezes in Pyrgos are disfiguring to the most tropical stuff,but overall the low temperature isnt sustained anywhere near as long as in Athens,so marginal palms should survive much lower temperature in Pyrgos,with damage,than in Athens,cause damage is superficial,only on the thinner tissues like leaf blades,but the mass of the palm/plants doesnt have enough time to reach that temperature,so its chances of survival are much greater and no serious damage done.

I never implied Pyrgos is wamer than Crete or maybe even Rhodes. These are islands,more southern and with less cold influences than mainland Greece. They should be warmer and i have heard Chania in Crete is an awesome place to grow palms,warm,rainy and humid!

Coincidentally,i went to Cyprus last fall on a business trip and it of course was much warmer than here. It was also way drier too though which is not too good. Saw many water stressed palms and Strelitzia nicolai. The Ficus were awesome though!

Well it seems this thread has turned into "Pyrgos vs Athens, which is the best place to try to grow tender palms?"

Concerning to my pseudophoenix, i am worried because it needs to dry as bone now and the rain is still falling until wednesday. Hopefully clouds will leave us for at least a week and a half and then it will have the opportunity to recover from some root rot while in pot.

Anyhow, if i loose this one i will try with another one, the same syze, and avoiding the same mistakes.

But i still hope it wont be necessary

We are just trying to understand better our climate respectively with all drawbacks and advantages, no competition. As to the term 'tender' this is very relative depending on the particular climate a palm grows. A rain forest palm is in eastern Greece so much tender as a desert palm in western Greece!

Good luck with your Pseudo Rafael!

Don't worry Rafael,rains don't cause that much trouble to ground planted palms in general. And Pseudophoenix,though it would be good to leave it dry out well preventively,is fine being wet once it acclimates and establishes. For that,heat is needed,so if your weather warms up well,even if it continues raining, it should overcome any rot problems, establish and start growing well. So wether dry weather or warm weather arrives first,your Pseudophoenix will be happy