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Why peat moss sucks and should NEVER be used for palms


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Posted

Just to bring some closure to this topic. Peat moss sucks and I won't use it for the reasons that Dave and I both summarized.

But to be fair, here's a summary of my own screw up on the b. hapala that's croaking.

1) The plant was in the ground too deeply. The base got buried about two inches too deep, so native soil was above the rootball. I didn't plant it, hired help planted it, and I didn't inspect it. Otherwise I would have known.

2) Watering by swale flooding lead to the native soil above and on the sides being plenty wet, while the rootball totally dried out.

3) As Len pointed out, the palm was already stressed from freeze exposure in Fallbrook, so may already have been weakened. The temps in Fallbrook and Santa Cruz were identical in March, so I don't think the climate change had much to do with it. But the palm was definitely already stressed.

Dried rootball = drought stressed plant that became highly susceptible to fungus. It being buried slightly too deep probably has lead to fungus invading the stem.

I'll apply lime sulfur to the stem and a systemic fungicide to the roots. I doubt this one will make it, but I can't blame anyone else but my own screw up on this one.

With that being said, peat moss still sucks, especially for Mediterranean climates with dry growing seasons and wet dormant seasons.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

Axel, you think that peat moss is equally detrimental if mixed to a homogenous material with native soil? I think that mixing peat moss with clay soil reduces considerably drawbacks of latter. Whatabout instead of peat moss using coir, does this make things better?

Posted

If you use a surfactant it will save you a lot of trouble. Potted palms can retain salts/hardness over time and they can be difficult to wet after salts accumulate and then dry out. The surfactant will help rinse the salts out... I use sodium laurel sulfate when this rare condition occurs. Many soaps and shampoos have SLS in them. this used to happen to my potted palms in Arizona a lot, anything over a year in a pot was in need of SLS.

Thanks, I will try that and a combo of just flooding the hole and remixing by hand without removing the palm. I bare rooted my pinanga, and that finished it off completely.

>I have gotten palms grown in peat moss before and have used peat moss mixes to grow palms successfully. Palms do love it when it's moist(but not sitting on water or watered too often for the plant and pot size used),they just hate it when continually dry and we certainly hate it when it takes a good while to rewet it without a surfactant! But with proper care,its not a bad growing medium. I do try to not use it much for ecological reasons but its a main ingredient in most potting soil mixes commercially available and coir is not anywhere near as available here.

Btw,for George Sparkman and his plants I have only the best things to say! Great guy and great plants! Despite the distance,I have plants here from him! :)

Let's get one thing on record, George Sparkman is a great guy and he's got great plants. I just had bad luck with two of them because of the peat moss in the soil mix. I'd buy from him again in a heartbeat.

I can see your point about the negatives of peat moss, but is there any chance that some of your cultural practices are to blame as well?

For example: some of these palms and tropicals you speak of shouldn't be allowed to dry out in the first place. If you're watering sufficiently, and via the appropriate method for your substrate, especially during the initial planting phase and following few months, then the peat moss should have never dried out in the first place. Also, once the plant has been in the ground for a few months they usually will grow roots down into the native soil and even if the original root mass is allowed to dry out these new, and/or deeper roots will be able to drink from the wet soil below if it's being properly irrigated. Plus, are you properly mulching? This is essential in helping to retaining even soil moisture. Every pic you post has bare dirt in it. :hmm:

It seems like you're always eager to blame the potting soil, or the palm species, or the nursery you bought it from.

Matty, I watered a ton, which is why I am puzzled. Try three times a week! That should be enough. This isn't my fault, it's not George's fault, it's not peat moss' fault. It's just an unfortunate mismatch between my soil and peat moss, there's no one to blame. It seems like you're always eager to blame my character. You and I need to go have a beer, my character is not as lame as you think.

But I stick with my assessment of peat moss, which has nothing to do with blame, the only value of peat moss for palms that I can see is that it's an ideal medium to germinate palm seeds in baggies. My wife hates veggie starts that come in peat moss, same problem, they dry out no matter what she does. Now she bare roots the starts before planting them. I am not the only one who's discovered this about peat moss over the years, it's not just palm gardening, many other types of gardeners have discovered the downside of peat moss.

thats a powerful statment

Man, that avatar is really on fire!

I'd like to join both of you for a beer, but I am far away.

Posted

Axel,

Here is another mistake...you hired someone else to plant it! I would never let anyone plant my stuff with out me drilling them on what to do. after all the irrigation, mulching, hardscape ETC that i do, planting is my reward. Palm roots are sensitive-especially to an already stressed palm. When I bring a palm home from a totally different climate or if it takes me a while to get it home (Days) I will sometimes wait a year just to make sure its ok. I have done this with many FB palms and they do fine.

If you can hire someone to plant a palm, just hire someone to get your irrigation going ( filters and drip tube ) so you dont have to worry about clogging and things not being watering properly. And remember what I said about planting high, so even if you get a palm in a mix that has too much organics and decides to shrink on you it will still be above the soil line

  • Upvote 1

Grateful to have what I have, Les amis de mes amis sont mes amis!

Posted

Oh my god guys, stop being negative so much. I come to palmtalk to relax, not to get angry....

  • Upvote 3

Ondra

Prague, Czech Republic

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Posted

Axel,

Here is another mistake...you hired someone else to plant it! I would never let anyone plant my stuff with out me drilling them on what to do. after all the irrigation, mulching, hardscape ETC that i do, planting is my reward. Palm roots are sensitive-especially to an already stressed palm. When I bring a palm home from a totally different climate or if it takes me a while to get it home (Days) I will sometimes wait a year just to make sure its ok. I have done this with many FB palms and they do fine.

If you can hire someone to plant a palm, just hire someone to get your irrigation going ( filters and drip tube ) so you dont have to worry about clogging and things not being watering properly. And remember what I said about planting high, so even if you get a palm in a mix that has too much organics and decides to shrink on you it will still be above the soil line

The fellow was trying to be nice and decided to plant things I didn't ask him to plant. Oh well. I usually just have them dig the holes but people don't always listen. For that same reason hiring somebody to do the drip is out of the question, I tried that once, it was a disaster.

In my soil I plant everything in holes, but the swale is usually such that it doesn't bury the palm itself.

But now let's all think happy thoughts!!! We don't want to disturb anyone. :)

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

Len, I'm sure you have addresed this elsewhere on the forum. But do you treat preventatively? Or only when you suspect an attack? If to prevent, would you mind sharing your regimen? Thanks!

In the garden ONLY when something has been hit. In the green house I sometimes do preventative on things that love to get attacked by fungus no matter what I do.

Len

Vista, CA (Zone 10a)

Shadowridge Area

"Show me your garden and I shall tell you what you are."

-- Alfred Austin

Posted

I went through the garden systematically to check all the palms for problems. Literally like clockwork, all the palms from the two nurseries that use peat moss based soil have dried up, some less than others. What's interesting is that even those where I have actual connected drip have also dried up. What is also interesting is that all the fungal problems that I had last Spring that came with some of the palms before planting were only on the palms planted with peat moss.

That wonderful strong growing dypsis robusta - it stalled. I dug, sure enough, peat moss based mix, totally dried up. And that one was on drip.

Time to dig up, get rid of the peat moss, and replant. All other palms are growing gangbuster, no issues whatsoever. It's only the peat moss stuff that has dried up.

Joe Debrowski's palms and Kevin Weaver's palms are across the board THE best performers, no wetting issues at all, they use plenty of native soil and sand in their mixes and the palms are nice and moist and growing very, very well, no fungal issues that I can see.

I may not be the best gardener around, but peat moss still sucks.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

What else?

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

Posted

So Axel, nurseries and growers tend to use what works for them to produce plants, push growth, and keep them alive in a nursery environment where plants are watered everyday with regular fertilization as well.

Here in our clay soils. the conventional wisdom taught by horticulturalist is to gently wash away as much of that nursery soil as possible at planting time and to wash in the native soil which was dug from the hole in which the plant is to be placed. Any amendment to that soil, with peat or anything else is discouraged. Does this not eliminate the issue either way?

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Posted

So Axel, nurseries and growers tend to use what works for them to produce plants, push growth, and keep them alive in a nursery environment where plants are watered everyday with regular fertilization as well.

Here in our clay soils. the conventional wisdom taught by horticulturalist is to gently wash away as much of that nursery soil as possible at planting time and to wash in the native soil which was dug from the hole in which the plant is to be placed. Any amendment to that soil, with peat or anything else is discouraged. Does this not eliminate the issue either way?

Over the years I've followed the Southern California Palm Guide planting style, which is dig a hole just big enough for the palm to fit, put the palm in and back fill. This works wonders with most palms. But I will be following your suggested approach and removing most of the nursery soil from now on and replacing it with native soil. My wife now just bare roots veggies because of this issue. I've been scared to do that with palms, but I think I will just bare root the ones growing in that peat mossy soil mix. Some of the more drought tolerant palms simply grow roots into the native soil even if the original mix dries out, but some of those more tropical palms don't seem to be able to handle that.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

Len, I'm sure you have addresed this elsewhere on the forum. But do you treat preventatively? Or only when you suspect an attack? If to prevent, would you mind sharing your regimen? Thanks!

In the garden ONLY when something has been hit. In the green house I sometimes do preventative on things that love to get attacked by fungus no matter what I do.
Thanks.
Posted

So Axel, nurseries and growers tend to use what works for them to produce plants, push growth, and keep them alive in a nursery environment where plants are watered everyday with regular fertilization as well.

Here in our clay soils. the conventional wisdom taught by horticulturalist is to gently wash away as much of that nursery soil as possible at planting time and to wash in the native soil which was dug from the hole in which the plant is to be placed. Any amendment to that soil, with peat or anything else is discouraged. Does this not eliminate the issue either way?

Over the years I've followed the Southern California Palm Guide planting style, which is dig a hole just big enough for the palm to fit, put the palm in and back fill. This works wonders with most palms. But I will be following your suggested approach and removing most of the nursery soil from now on and replacing it with native soil. My wife now just bare roots veggies because of this issue. I've been scared to do that with palms, but I think I will just bare root the ones growing in that peat mossy soil mix. Some of the more drought tolerant palms simply grow roots into the native soil even if the original mix dries out, but some of those more tropical palms don't seem to be able to handle that.

I've never read any type of handbook or article in how to plant stuff and haven't been doing it for THAT long since I've only owned a home for the last 3 years and still in my very early 30's but I've always loved to plant stuff with my dad but he's working with real nice loam. when we first bought our house we did what you described, which was smaller hole enough for the plant and backfill but our soil was so bad that even if it was small flowers in liners they would die right away because the clay when wet would just start spreading and filling in all the holes and gaps and water wouldn't be able to penetrate the clay barrier since water would just run off or if i did a swale water wouldn't soak it and just sit on top until it evaporated. I've always dug massive holes compared to the size of the pot and then backfilled the hole with my own soil and by the time the roots had gotten down to the bottom of the hole all the moisture and fresh soil worked into the clay below and when i dug out a few plants i found a bunch of roots that got into the clay and the clay was much more workable. luckily i started with very inexpensive plants for my trial and error. this time around since everything's bare i'm not taking any shortcuts and really amending all the clay at once

Posted

Oh my god guys, stop being negative so much. I come to palmtalk to relax, not to get angry....

well said...

iam visiting this forum after a brief gap.I see lots of new faces here...very happy to see them.

but its surprising to see few seniors and regulars arguing with the topic starter.

all have the right to have an opinion wheather the opinion is correct or not...is totally another

subject.

but justin and kotas seems to be helpful.

by the way is it hot in the u.s ?

love all,

kris.

love conquers all..

43278.gif

.

Posted

Its No use to keep"Flogging a Dead Horse" as we all live in different climates and garden differently and have "different opinions....And... what "doesn't work" for some.."Works for Others" for many different reasons.. Lets try and "Keep" Discussing Palm Trees. Palm Mod Dean, maybe this thread "should" be moved to "Off Topic"? Pete :)

Posted

Oh my god guys, stop being negative so much. I come to palmtalk to relax, not to get angry....

well said...

iam visiting this forum after a brief gap.I see lots of new faces here...very happy to see them.

but its surprising to see few seniors and regulars arguing with the topic starter.

all have the right to have an opinion wheather the opinion is correct or not...is totally another

subject.

but justin and kotas seems to be helpful.

by the way is it hot in the u.s ?

love all,

kris.

there was a small heat wave out in CA but it was only 2 days of real heat and then cooled off quite a bit. it's been a lot more humid lately though

Posted

Axel,

Can you explain why your swale flooding system failed to work? Is it simply that your soil is too free draining? Presumably swales on contour, it's hard to see why the water would not go into the palm root zone.

Waimarama New Zealand (39.5S, 177E)

Oceanic temperate

summer 25C/15C

winter 15C/6C

No frost, no heat

Posted

Oh my god guys, stop being negative so much. I come to palmtalk to relax, not to get angry....

well said...

iam visiting this forum after a brief gap.I see lots of new faces here...very happy to see them.

but its surprising to see few seniors and regulars arguing with the topic starter.

all have the right to have an opinion wheather the opinion is correct or not...is totally another

subject.

but justin and kotas seems to be helpful.

by the way is it hot in the u.s ?

love all,

kris.

there was a small heat wave out in CA but it was only 2 days of real heat and then cooled off quite a bit. it's been a lot more humid lately though

It hasn't cooled off here one bit.

It was 108f yesterday, and it supposed to be this way for the next three days.

Jeff

Modesto, CA USDA 9b

July/August average 95f/63f

Dec/Jan average 55f/39f

Average lowest winter temp 27f

Record low temp 18f

Record high temp 113f

Posted

Kris, many parts of the southwest are still experiencing continued days of high 90 - 100 plus heat. For some like me it started last week (inland area over 100). Coastal areas are generally fairing better temperature wise.

We are on some countywide telephone auto alert system and yesterday I received a call from a Santa Clara County department advising people of the continuing expected excessive heat and precautions to take. Pointed out symptoms of heat stroke and what to do. Advised people that it was a Flex Alert power time as well and to not use major appliances during the hours of noon to 7 pm so power would be available for air conditioning. Asked people to check on elderly neighbors and keep infants and pets in cooler temps indoors if possible. Said the high temps are expected thru at least the Fourth of July holiday and people should refrain from spending a lot of time in the sun and avoid drinking alcohol. Same message as what is being passed along on TV.

Zone 9b (formerly listed as Zone 9a); Sunset 14

Posted

We've not had any unusual heat here, we had a couple of days around 94F but the heat wave never reached our area. It's been more around the 80F mark which is pretty normal for around here. What has been different is that it's been humid, even at the 94F mark.

Axel,

Can you explain why your swale flooding system failed to work? Is it simply that your soil is too free draining? Presumably swales on contour, it's hard to see why the water would not go into the palm root zone.

The swale flooding system did not fail for the majority of my palms. It was only those palms planted in peat moss mixes that caused the problem. I've had this happen many times before. The peat moss just dries up while the rest of the soil remains wet. I do have very porous, fast draining soil, which is why I have a lot of success with many palms that rot for other people. The water drains faster than it can be absorbed by the rootball, so only the native soil is wet, but the peat moss just dries up.

it's horrible stuff, in the future, I will be bare rooting anything that has peat moss in it, or at the very least I will remove most of the peat moss as Keith suggested.

Given that I am having trouble with a few palms because of this, I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to peat moss. I really hate that stuff.

Jastin and Matty are right, I need to make the extra investment and get my drip system working properly. However, even some of the peat moss soil mix palms are drying out with just drip.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

Oh my god guys, stop being negative so much. I come to palmtalk to relax, not to get angry....

well said...

iam visiting this forum after a brief gap.I see lots of new faces here...very happy to see them.

but its surprising to see few seniors and regulars arguing with the topic starter.

all have the right to have an opinion wheather the opinion is correct or not...is totally another

subject.

but justin and kotas seems to be helpful.

by the way is it hot in the u.s ?

love all,

kris.

there was a small heat wave out in CA but it was only 2 days of real heat and then cooled off quite a bit. it's been a lot more humid lately though

It hasn't cooled off here one bit.

It was 108f yesterday, and it supposed to be this way for the next three days.

Jeff

it was in the mid 70s yesterday and should be like that the rest of the week, the air's a bit thick though so it's feeling a bit warmer than that but pretty enjoyable with lots of clouds

Posted

We've not had any unusual heat here, we had a couple of days around 94F but the heat wave never reached our area. It's been more around the 80F mark which is pretty normal for around here. What has been different is that it's been humid, even at the 94F mark.

Axel,

Can you explain why your swale flooding system failed to work? Is it simply that your soil is too free draining? Presumably swales on contour, it's hard to see why the water would not go into the palm root zone.

The swale flooding system did not fail for the majority of my palms. It was only those palms planted in peat moss mixes that caused the problem. I've had this happen many times before. The peat moss just dries up while the rest of the soil remains wet. I do have very porous, fast draining soil, which is why I have a lot of success with many palms that rot for other people. The water drains faster than it can be absorbed by the rootball, so only the native soil is wet, but the peat moss just dries up.

it's horrible stuff, in the future, I will be bare rooting anything that has peat moss in it, or at the very least I will remove most of the peat moss as Keith suggested.

Given that I am having trouble with a few palms because of this, I have a chip on my shoulder when it comes to peat moss. I really hate that stuff.

Jastin and Matty are right, I need to make the extra investment and get my drip system working properly. However, even some of the peat moss soil mix palms are drying out with just drip.

i did a double swale, one swale right around the original rootball / pot shape and then another swale around the hole i dug. the 2nd swale is mostly to stop getting the clay water runoff from going into my freshly planted plant. i tried a few different ways and this worked for me since sometimes the soil i put into my holes were a lot faster draining than the soil used in the pots when i bought them

Posted

I use a mix with peat and perlite and I do dig a hole 3x the size of the root ball, no problems at all, just robust growth in my sandy soils. Two things I don't agree with, first using drip emitters in high drainage sandy soil, and second don't allow a soil transition from one material(peat mix) to almost pure sand near the root ball. Drip emitters are prone to "channeling" in high drainage soils, especially with salt buildup. And I always read that you don't want a sudden transition in soil composition around the root zone in sandy soil, things dry out too fast. All of my palms that were bought small(1 gal or less) were potted and repotted in palm and cactus mix which is probably 30%+ peat. I use micro sprinklers for my palms and I treat the soil with fish emulsion/humic adic 3x a year to prevent salt buildup. There are many variables here, peat is just one. Others are surrounding soil type, method of planting, irrigation, and soil treatments. My instinct is that the use of a hole just big enough to fit the root ball, plus peat, plus drip emitters in combination could be the issue. I will continue to pot and repot my small palms in the palm and cactus mix and amend the soil at least 3x the root ball size upon planting, and use micro sprinklers.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

Posted

I use a mix with peat and perlite and I do dig a hole 3x the size of the root ball, no problems at all, just robust growth in my sandy soils. Two things I don't agree with, first using drip emitters in high drainage sandy soil, and second don't allow a soil transition from one material(peat mix) to almost pure sand near the root ball. Drip emitters are prone to "channeling" in high drainage soils, especially with salt buildup. And I always read that you don't want a sudden transition in soil composition around the root zone in sandy soil, things dry out too fast. All of my palms that were bought small(1 gal or less) were potted and repotted in palm and cactus mix which is probably 30%+ peat. I use micro sprinklers for my palms and I treat the soil with fish emulsion/humic adic 3x a year to prevent salt buildup. There are many variables here, peat is just one. Others are surrounding soil type, method of planting, irrigation, and soil treatments. My instinct is that the use of a hole just big enough to fit the root ball, plus peat, plus drip emitters in combination could be the issue. I will continue to pot and repot my small palms in the palm and cactus mix and amend the soil at least 3x the root ball size upon planting, and use micro sprinklers.

Tom, you are always a wealth of knowledge. I also read that a sudden transition in soil texture is bad, but I had assumed it was different with palms. When I plant tropical fruit trees, I create a hole 3x the size of the rootball to be planted, and the hole is a mixture of native soil and amended organic compost to better match the high organic content soil of the newly planted rootball.

But so far, the hole just big enough for the palm rootball has worked for all palms except for the palms in peat mossy soils. It means extra work for those palms.

This would make a great new thread.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

I just read that you let someone else plant your palm? You should have all palm society priveledges revoked for that move, or at least a temporary suspension.

Rock Ridge Ranch

South Escondido

5 miles ENE Rancho Bernardo

33.06N 117W, Elevation 971 Feet

Posted

I just read that you let someone else plant your palm? You should have all palm society priveledges revoked for that move, or at least a temporary suspension.

:greenthumb: or is someone "trying" to "pass the buck" ? :)

Posted

I just read that you let someone else plant your palm? You should have all palm society priveledges revoked for that move, or at least a temporary suspension.

Nah, it's just that higher ranked Palm Society members reserve the privilege to hire help.

I just read that you let someone else plant your palm? You should have all palm society priveledges revoked for that move, or at least a temporary suspension.

:greenthumb: or is someone "trying" to "pass the buck" ? :)

I passed way too many bucks to the dude who planted the palm for me.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

if you need holes dug for planting, i'm the man for the job ... they tell me i'm good at digging holes

Posted

if you need holes dug for planting, i'm the man for the job ... they tell me i'm good at digging holes

Too bad we don't live next door to each other, we could just show up at each other's digging and planting party. :)

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

You can't afford me.

Searle Brothers Nursery Inc.

and The Rainforest Collection.

Southwest Ranches,Fl.

Posted

You can't afford me.

:)

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted

BIG HOLE WITH BIG REWARDS MIX NATIVE SOIL WITH SOIL SIMILAR TO ITS NATURAL ENVIRONEMENT WHERE THE PLANT ORIGINATES WATER ON DRIP AND FEED APPROPRIATELY WE ALL GROW BETTER IF FED PROPERLY ON SCHEDULE IF I DONT EAT I GET TIRED AND HAVE DEFICIENCES IF I DONT HAVE WATER I GET DEHYDRATED THUS BEING THE SAME WITH MY PLANTS IF ITS ORGANIC DONT PANIC THATS MY TWO CENTS THUMBS UP NOT FINGER AND HAVE A GREAT DAY

Posted

I'm so glad I can hear Akamu's voice saying that. It makes it so much better

Matt Bradford

"Manambe Lavaka"

Spring Valley, CA (8.5 miles inland from San Diego Bay)

10B on the hill (635 ft. elevation)

9B in the canyon (520 ft. elevation)

Posted

The one time you have to be careful digging a hole 3x the size is in clay, you end up with a bowl of roots and water, I think you better off letting the palm dig into the clay asap, and amending the whole flower bed with mulch. Sandy soil is a good idea to dig a larger hole and amend the back fill. Nice loamy soil it probably don't matter, the palms going to be happy either way.

Theres a nursery by me and the guy planted a lot of palms and cycads in a real heavy sandy soil from his property, at first I thought he didn't want to order soil, or just did it so it holds water longer. I really think now he did it because he knew his plants would do so much better when planted out in landscapes.

Ive been using a light mix of forest humus, nitro mulch, and little sand which makes the pots lighter for moving, I may look into making my soil a little heavier to help out when they get stuck in the ground. Ive though about this on some large cycads I have in 20g pots with a lot of perlite, I put them in there to bring them back to health, and they love it and look really nice, But how are they going to like being stuck in the ground.

Posted

if you need holes dug for planting, i'm the man for the job ... they tell me i'm good at digging holes

Too bad we don't live next door to each other, we could just show up at each other's digging and planting party. :)

seriously, I could help you dig all the holes you need dug. I took care of manually mixing 600sqft of gypsum into my clay and only took a bit over 2 hours to do

Posted

The one time you have to be careful digging a hole 3x the size is in clay, you end up with a bowl of roots and water, I think you better off letting the palm dig into the clay asap, and amending the whole flower bed with mulch. Sandy soil is a good idea to dig a larger hole and amend the back fill. Nice loamy soil it probably don't matter, the palms going to be happy either way.

Theres a nursery by me and the guy planted a lot of palms and cycads in a real heavy sandy soil from his property, at first I thought he didn't want to order soil, or just did it so it holds water longer. I really think now he did it because he knew his plants would do so much better when planted out in landscapes.

Ive been using a light mix of forest humus, nitro mulch, and little sand which makes the pots lighter for moving, I may look into making my soil a little heavier to help out when they get stuck in the ground. Ive though about this on some large cycads I have in 20g pots with a lot of perlite, I put them in there to bring them back to health, and they love it and look really nice, But how are they going to like being stuck in the ground.

I only have experience growing in the crappiest heavy clay you can think of and had tried to do the smaller hole when I first started planting in this house. The small hole didn't do too well because when you went and tried to water it it wouldn't drain and the roots would literally just sit in a pool of water for days until the sun took it all into the air. I ended up doing massive holes and just ended filling the holes with a mixture of the 3cuft compressed bales of soil, 1 bag of fine compost, 1/2 bag of peat moss or 1 bag of coco and lots of perlite. At the bottom of this massive hole I would mix in a layer of mulch, newspaper, compost and then filled the hole and backfilled, all my plants looked great when planted this way. the beginning of this year i had to dig out alot of my plants and found that the roots had worked well into the clay, i think all the organics in the soil and the stuff i had laid in the bottom of the holes attracted a bunch of works which helped aerate the clay, this was most apparent when I removed all the soil mixture for my vegetable garden, alot of the clay was super fine and felt real nice. the biggest pain in the ass when doing the large hole is when you get into planting 15gal plants and larger.

I purchased an 8' butia capitata compacta that had overgrown a 15gal bucket and was pretty much dug out of the ground to preserve the rootball I think the hole was a bit over 4' deep and 3' round

Posted

since I had everything redone and everything's empty I mixed in 2" of compost and gypsum to all my clay and hopefully it'll help break the clay down so I can dig smaller holes, especially with all the planting I have in store

Posted

This is an interesting topic. I never amend the garden soil where I plant palms -- I only amend the soil in my vegetable garden. However I love peat moss in potting soil. Especially for ultra tropical plants (mangosteen, durian), and palms (Cyrtostachys renda). I mix equal portions of peat moss, perlite, and orchid bark together.

Maybe the peat moss is the reason that the durian I planted in the ground didn't make it!

post-4899-0-13838300-1372987602_thumb.jp

Posted (edited)

The one time you have to be careful digging a hole 3x the size is in clay, you end up with a bowl of roots and water, I think you better off letting the palm dig into the clay asap, and amending the whole flower bed with mulch. Sandy soil is a good idea to dig a larger hole and amend the back fill. Nice loamy soil it probably don't matter, the palms going to be happy either way.

Theres a nursery by me and the guy planted a lot of palms and cycads in a real heavy sandy soil from his property, at first I thought he didn't want to order soil, or just did it so it holds water longer. I really think now he did it because he knew his plants would do so much better when planted out in landscapes.

Ive been using a light mix of forest humus, nitro mulch, and little sand which makes the pots lighter for moving, I may look into making my soil a little heavier to help out when they get stuck in the ground. Ive though about this on some large cycads I have in 20g pots with a lot of perlite, I put them in there to bring them back to health, and they love it and look really nice, But how are they going to like being stuck in the ground.

I only have experience growing in the crappiest heavy clay you can think of and had tried to do the smaller hole when I first started planting in this house. The small hole didn't do too well because when you went and tried to water it it wouldn't drain and the roots would literally just sit in a pool of water for days until the sun took it all into the air. I ended up doing massive holes and just ended filling the holes with a mixture of the 3cuft compressed bales of soil, 1 bag of fine compost, 1/2 bag of peat moss or 1 bag of coco and lots of perlite. At the bottom of this massive hole I would mix in a layer of mulch, newspaper, compost and then filled the hole and backfilled, all my plants looked great when planted this way. the beginning of this year i had to dig out alot of my plants and found that the roots had worked well into the clay, i think all the organics in the soil and the stuff i had laid in the bottom of the holes attracted a bunch of works which helped aerate the clay, this was most apparent when I removed all the soil mixture for my vegetable garden, alot of the clay was super fine and felt real nice. the biggest pain in the ass when doing the large hole is when you get into planting 15gal plants and larger.

I purchased an 8' butia capitata compacta that had overgrown a 15gal bucket and was pretty much dug out of the ground to preserve the rootball I think the hole was a bit over 4' deep and 3' round

When you have heavy, non draining clay, sand is the most important amendment. Perlite is also good, but that is more for lightening the soil and preventing soil compaction. the high surface area/volume of sand is even more important for flow in soil that is already compacted(sounds like yours is). Organic material is good also, but drainage is mainly impacted by breaking up the clay with sand and perlite.

Edited by sonoranfans

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

Posted

The one time you have to be careful digging a hole 3x the size is in clay, you end up with a bowl of roots and water, I think you better off letting the palm dig into the clay asap, and amending the whole flower bed with mulch. Sandy soil is a good idea to dig a larger hole and amend the back fill. Nice loamy soil it probably don't matter, the palms going to be happy either way.

Theres a nursery by me and the guy planted a lot of palms and cycads in a real heavy sandy soil from his property, at first I thought he didn't want to order soil, or just did it so it holds water longer. I really think now he did it because he knew his plants would do so much better when planted out in landscapes.

Ive been using a light mix of forest humus, nitro mulch, and little sand which makes the pots lighter for moving, I may look into making my soil a little heavier to help out when they get stuck in the ground. Ive though about this on some large cycads I have in 20g pots with a lot of perlite, I put them in there to bring them back to health, and they love it and look really nice, But how are they going to like being stuck in the ground.

I only have experience growing in the crappiest heavy clay you can think of and had tried to do the smaller hole when I first started planting in this house. The small hole didn't do too well because when you went and tried to water it it wouldn't drain and the roots would literally just sit in a pool of water for days until the sun took it all into the air. I ended up doing massive holes and just ended filling the holes with a mixture of the 3cuft compressed bales of soil, 1 bag of fine compost, 1/2 bag of peat moss or 1 bag of coco and lots of perlite. At the bottom of this massive hole I would mix in a layer of mulch, newspaper, compost and then filled the hole and backfilled, all my plants looked great when planted this way. the beginning of this year i had to dig out alot of my plants and found that the roots had worked well into the clay, i think all the organics in the soil and the stuff i had laid in the bottom of the holes attracted a bunch of works which helped aerate the clay, this was most apparent when I removed all the soil mixture for my vegetable garden, alot of the clay was super fine and felt real nice. the biggest pain in the ass when doing the large hole is when you get into planting 15gal plants and larger.

I purchased an 8' butia capitata compacta that had overgrown a 15gal bucket and was pretty much dug out of the ground to preserve the rootball I think the hole was a bit over 4' deep and 3' round

When you have heavy, non draining clay, sand is the most important amendment. Perlite is also good, but that is more for lightening the soil and preventing soil compaction. the high surface area/volume of sand is even more important for flow in soil that is already compacted(sounds like yours is). Organic material is good also, but drainage is mainly impacted by breaking up the clay with sand and perlite.

I do not disagree that amending clay with sand may have worked for you, but it is not the recommendation of horticulturist at this time for normal plantings.

However it you are trying to grow a plant that grows in sandy soil in in its native environment and you have a clay soil, that is another matter. But be aware you can't just amend with a little sand. The sand should make up 50% by volume of the plants anticipated total root space.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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