Learning to Pronounce Latin Names

[Peter G]

So in Perth, the palm community is quite small and I find everyone pronounces these latin names differently. So I want to confirm a few of these names with you all.

Lets start with Dypsis Ambositrae.

On the internet I have found the following:

Am-boost-ray

am-boh-SIT-ray-ee

am-bo-SIT-reh

and in Perth it is pronounced Plumosa! Yes, they still sell this as Ambositrae!

So which is it?

Please add more,

Peter

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Dypsis plumosa was floating around under the name ambositrae but it was a mistaken identity. The "old" fake ambositrae is d. Plumosa. The new real ambositrae is something different. The correct Latin pronunciation is am-boh-SIT-ra-ee.

[richnorm]

No, the correct pronunciation is ambooshtree, at least that's how JD says it!

[Kim]

If one is French-speaking and living in Madagascar, it is am-BOOST-reh.

[tropicbreeze]

There's a lot of issues relating to using latin and its correct pronunciation.

Firstly it's a "dead language" as far as the original goes - Classical Latin. So it's not certain what pronunciation was really like.

The church carried on with latin as its own language, living languages are subject to continuous change of words and pronunciation. The educated, mostly ecclesiastics, read and wrote in latin but they'd speak with a bias towards their own native tongue (no recordings of sound to show how things were really pronounced, or pronounced elsewhere).

When it came to naming plants and animals, whilst they started off with words from latin, Greek started to come into it as well. They then brought in names of people. In the earlier days people's names were often latinised, so naming species after them wasn't an issue. But now there have been many species named after people (non-latinised) and their correct pronunciation wouldn't be based on latin phoenetics, whatever anyone decided that might be. Another trend is to use names from indigenous languages and place names. It throws the whole business of pronunciation up in the air.

In reality the system was set up to give accuracy in written form, not in pronunciation. That's why you get so many "experts" giving their opinion with most of them being different.

[edric]

Here are some guidelines I have provided in Palmpedia, at the top of the category index click on both "MODERN BOTANICAL LATIN" my prime source of reference, and "Just to be clear" as the title states, please use Palmpedia, I have spent 6 hours a day, for 4 months studying botanical latin, the info is well researched, on nearly every species page on the top right, you will find the Latin phonetic spelling of that species, please check it out, thanks, Ed

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:PALM_GENERA

[Phoenikakias]

  On 5/27/2013 at 8:15 AM, tropicbreeze said:

There's a lot of issues relating to using latin and its correct pronunciation.

Firstly it's a "dead language" as far as the original goes - Classical Latin. So it's not certain what pronunciation was really like.

The church carried on with latin as its own language, living languages are subject to continuous change of words and pronunciation. The educated, mostly ecclesiastics, read and wrote in latin but they'd speak with a bias towards their own native tongue (no recordings of sound to show how things were really pronounced, or pronounced elsewhere).

When it came to naming plants and animals, whilst they started off with words from latin, Greek started to come into it as well. They then brought in names of people. In the earlier days people's names were often latinised, so naming species after them wasn't an issue. But now there have been many species named after people (non-latinised) and their correct pronunciation wouldn't be based on latin phoenetics, whatever anyone decided that might be. Another trend is to use names from indigenous languages and place names. It throws the whole business of pronunciation up in the air.

In reality the system was set up to give accuracy in written form, not in pronunciation. That's why you get so many "experts" giving their opinion with most of them being different.

That way latin alphabet functions kinda chinese script. Every one understands what he reads but when it comes to verbal communication ... Babylon.

[dalmatiansoap]

Thats why I prefer written Latin .

Sounds funny how we all pronounce it.

Anyway

Edited May 27, 2013 by dalmatiansoap

[Alberto]

  On 5/27/2013 at 10:42 AM, edric said:

Here are some guidelines I have provided in Palmpedia, at the top of the category index click on both "MODERN BOTANICAL LATIN" my prime source of reference, and "Just to be clear" as the title states, please use Palmpedia, I have spent 6 hours a day, for 4 months studying botanical latin, the info is well researched, on nearly every species page on the top right, you will find the Latin phonetic spelling of that species, please check it out, thanks, Ed

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:PALM_GENERA

a

e

i

y

-ae

-ii

ti, ci

ch

g

'ah,' not 'ay'

'eh,' not 'ee'

'ee' or as in 'sit,' not 'eye'

as in 'sit' or 'cynic,' not 'eye'

'eye,' not 'ee' or 'ay'

'ee-ee,' not 'ee-eye'

generally 'tee' or 'see,' not 'she'

generally as 'k,' not 'ch' as in couch

as in 'go,' not as in 'gem'

If English speaking folks would stop to pronounce the "i" as eye" and "ii" as "ee-eye", I think this would be a great progress!!!

Dypsis baronii (Dyp-sees baROnee-EE)............... not baronee-eye

[Alberto]

What do you think about the "latin pronounciation" of Google translate?

http://translate.google.com.br/#la/en/Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.

Portuguese pronunciation (similar to Latin)

http://translate.google.com.br/#pt/en/Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.%20Dypsis%20Ambositrae.

[edric]

  On 5/27/2013 at 10:07 PM, Alberto said:

  On 5/27/2013 at 10:42 AM, edric said:

Here are some guidelines I have provided in Palmpedia, at the top of the category index click on both "MODERN BOTANICAL LATIN" my prime source of reference, and "Just to be clear" as the title states, please use Palmpedia, I have spent 6 hours a day, for 4 months studying botanical latin, the info is well researched, on nearly every species page on the top right, you will find the Latin phonetic spelling of that species, please check it out, thanks, Ed

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:PALM_GENERA

a

e

i

y

-ae

-ii

ti, ci

ch

g

'ah,' not 'ay'

'eh,' not 'ee'

'ee' or as in 'sit,' not 'eye'

as in 'sit' or 'cynic,' not 'eye'

'eye,' not 'ee' or 'ay'

'ee-ee,' not 'ee-eye'

generally 'tee' or 'see,' not 'she'

generally as 'k,' not 'ch' as in couch

as in 'go,' not as in 'gem'

If English speaking folks would stop to pronounce the "i" as eye" and "ii" as "ee-eye", I think this would be a great progress!!!

Dypsis baronii (Dyp-sees baROnee-EE)............... not baronee-eye

Yes Alberto, I know it's really ee-EE, but as the info I have provided on Palmpedia explains, ee-EYE has become accepted in the botanical world, I thought very hard about changing it in the beginning, but decided to leave it ee-EYE to try and fit in, and not throw a wrench in the works, Ed

[richnorm]

Alberto, point taken but it's a Malagasy word! But I don't think pronunciation matters much, it seldom leads to confusion. Saying baronii correctly even comes across as an little pretentious. Around here Hedyscepe and Ceroxylon are rarely pronounced "correctly".

[Alberto]

"Saying baronii correctly even comes across as an little pretentious."

Maybe in an English speaking country, but of course saying baronee-eye in Brazil, Spain, Portugal or Italy etc would sound very strange and without reason ,speaking of latin languages ....but in the Netherlands the pronunciation of the last "i" is also "ee"......in German probably also, and I wonder which languages more..

So the last "eye" is an "English pronunciation" .

[tropicbreeze]

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:07 AM, Phoenikakias said:

That way latin alphabet functions kinda chinese script. Every one understands what he reads but when it comes to verbal communication ... Babylon.

That's exactly spot on Phoenikakias. I was going to use the Chinese analogy but it's a bit more extreme than what has happened with latin.

Dalmatiansoap, you're right. That was how it was meant to be.

Alberto, interesting links. Amazing that someone has gone to the trouble of loading that up on the internet. Unless it's machine generated. But still quite a task.

I studied latin for 5 years, the last year under a PhD who was a latin scholar and had translated several original latin texts. One thing I learned from it was that everyone has their own version of the pronunciation but no one knows which is right. And on another point, there is no such thing as "botanical latin".

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

  On 5/27/2013 at 3:54 AM, richnorm said:

No, the correct pronunciation is ambooshtree, at least that's how JD says it!

Well, JD doesn't understand my latin anyway, I just point to the plants and he sells them to me.

[Alberto]

Really important is the correct written name of course!

[edric]

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:27 PM, tropicbreeze said:

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:07 AM, Phoenikakias said:

That way latin alphabet functions kinda chinese script. Every one understands what he reads but when it comes to verbal communication ... Babylon.

That's exactly spot on Phoenikakias. I was going to use the Chinese analogy but it's a bit more extreme than what has happened with latin.

Dalmatiansoap, you're right. That was how it was meant to be.

Alberto, interesting links. Amazing that someone has gone to the trouble of loading that up on the internet. Unless it's machine generated. But still quite a task.

I studied latin for 5 years, the last year under a PhD who was a latin scholar and had translated several original latin texts. One thing I learned from it was that everyone has their own version of the pronunciation but no one knows which is right. And on another point, there is no such thing as "botanical latin".

No of coarse there is no such thing, that's just the term being used to describe the accepted pronunciation of Latin for botany which is as we know full of incorrect pronunciations, but none the less, has become accepted, like I said before I just couldn't bring myself to use "church Latin" when the botanical world was so deep into all the mispronunciations, so I went with the flow, Ed

[richnorm]

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:32 PM, Axel in Santa Cruz said:

  On 5/27/2013 at 3:54 AM, richnorm said:

No, the correct pronunciation is ambooshtree, at least that's how JD says it!

Well, JD doesn't understand my latin anyway, I just point to the plants and he sells them to me.

John Dransfield....

[Alberto]

Learning to Pronounce Latin Names.

I think that if your mother language is English, you will be less concerned about pronunciation of particular letters in a word. In English every child "has to learn" the pronunciation of every word. The same letters are pronunciated different in different words. For example: the "ea" in words like "learn" ("u"), "idea"(eeuh), "near" (ee), "heart" (uh), weather (e). In Portuguese for example "ea" has only one pronunciation. English words are like chinese ideograms: they give you the idea of the word, but the pronunciation of every word has to be learned. This is different in other languages. If a child knows the rules, he can read correctly almost every new word he sees. Most of the rules are clear. The letter " i" is a "ee" for every brazilian, spanish or italian child, but for an English speaking child it can be "eye" like in "I" or apronunciated as "ê" in "is". So if English is your mother tongue you grow up with more "relaxed" pronunciation rules.You have to learn the correct pronunciation of every vowel in every word. For me a "i" is a "i" (ee) since I´m 6 years old and isn´t 'eye" ("ai" in Port.) I think that explains someting.......

...........Learning to Pronounce Latin Names.................for somebody who speaks a latin language this is easier.

[Alberto]

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:27 PM, tropicbreeze said:

  On 5/27/2013 at 11:07 AM, Phoenikakias said:

That way latin alphabet functions kinda chinese script. Every one understands what he reads but when it comes to verbal communication ... Babylon.

Alberto, interesting links. Amazing that someone has gone to the trouble of loading that up on the internet. Unless it's machine generated. But still quite a task.

This was a one minute task!

[Alberto]

  On 5/28/2013 at 11:13 AM, Alberto said:

Learning to Pronounce Latin Names.

I think that if your mother language is English, you will be less concerned about pronunciation of particular letters in a word. In English every child "has to learn" the pronunciation of every word. The same letters are pronunciated different in different words. For example: the "ea" in words like "learn" ("u"), "idea"(eeuh), "near" (ee), "heart" (uh), weather (e). In Portuguese for example "ea" has only one pronunciation. English words are like chinese ideograms: they give you the idea of the word, but the pronunciation of every word has to be learned. This is different in other languages. If a child knows the rules, he can read correctly almost every new word he sees. Most of the rules are clear. The letter " i" is a "ee" for every brazilian, spanish or italian child, but for an English speaking child it can be "eye" like in "I" or apronunciated as "ê" in "is". So if English is your mother tongue you grow up with more "relaxed" pronunciation rules.You have to learn the correct pronunciation of every vowel in every word. For me a "i" is a "i" (ee) since I´m 6 years old and isn´t 'eye" ("ai" in Port.) I think that explains someting.......

...........Learning to Pronounce Latin Names.................for somebody who speaks a latin language this is easier.

I know that the idea of "english words" being like "ideograms" is somewhat exaggerated. I heard this first from my american English teacher when I was at the University. Of course he could compare written and spoken English to Portuguese. Reading Portuguese is very easy, if you know the rules he said.English is a different world he told us. Take the word "table", it gives you a visual idea about the pronunciation, but in fact it´s far from it. Writing "taybel" would be better... Night or nite? How you can pronunciate two so different written words with the same sounds. Something impossible in Portuguese (there are exceptions). Trying to pronunciate in Portuguese words like "table" and "taybel"", "night" and "nite" produce totally different sounds, because the rules are very clear and strict....

[Kim]

"Nite" is not a real word in English -- it's a simplified spelling of "night" used in advertising, or a slang spelling, or simple misspelling. The -igh- for the long -i- sound is common enough to be easily recognized: sight, fright, light, might, tight, right. Table -- label, cable, fable, able, enable, cradle, ladel -- this spelling for the long -a- sound is common in English and should not present a problem to a student of the language. More complicated: weight, height. Why does the same letter combination make a different sound? I agree 100% that French, Spanish, Italian, and Portuguese have the benefit of clearly defined sounds corresponding to orthography, which really simplifies the learning of the language. Latin, though a dead language, has rules too, but I haven't studied them, and really mash up the latin names.

[Alberto]

I understand you! I know nite isn´t a word and is "missppeled slang", but the point is: night and nite has the same pronunciation (sound) ,but are written totally different...

tcheaze or cheese

watch or wotch

see or sea?

Same sounds, but written with different letters

[Kim]

Point taken. But better to use real words. Bight (a curve or recess in a coastline) and bite (to cut or tear with the teeth).

[sur4z]

hic haec hoc

huius huius huius

hunc hanc hoc

[Kim]

Got something stuck in your throat?

[Alberto]

I read somewhere that this is also a reason that learning English is more difficult for dyslectic people, specially monosylabs. In English you have to learn spelling and reading and you have to learn to "recognize" every word. For dyslectics every word is new every day. How to differenciate "bight" from "bite". How to write "night" ???

[Alberto]

  On 5/28/2013 at 4:02 PM, Kim said:

Got something stuck in your throat?

[tjwalters]

As another point of reference (that I've posted before), at the University of Maryland (biology - specifically botany and entomology) we used Donald J. Borror's "Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms" as our guide. I've high-lighted (hi-lited ) the relevant passages as they pertain to the "ae" diphthong and how it is pronounced as a long "e." (Remember, though, that this is English. Your language may vary. )

[Phoenikakias]

I have a greater difficulty to pronounce greek words, written with latin alphabet (but the words themselves have never been adopted to latin language) the way english speaking people do! A K is always a K in my language and most of the those component - words are in daily use. The word Acoelorrhaphe is the best example. If I start pronouncing in this example C as S and not K I have the feeling I desecrate my language and get alienated. It is just that you can not change in one occasion what you do daily.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Phoenikakias

[Alberto]

About the diphtong "ae" in for example Livistona mariae.......I´ve always read this : Lee-vees-TO-nuh ma-REE-ê and not ma-ree-EYE , like the pronuciation of Google translate (latin) for the diphtong ae is eye

[Alberto]

Rosa rosa est et "ì" est "i"

A rose is a rose and an "i"(ee) is an "i"(ee)

[virtualpalm]

  On 5/27/2013 at 8:15 AM, tropicbreeze said:

There's a lot of issues relating to using latin and its correct pronunciation.

Firstly it's a "dead language" as far as the original goes - Classical Latin. So it's not certain what pronunciation was really like.

The church carried on with latin as its own language, living languages are subject to continuous change of words and pronunciation. The educated, mostly ecclesiastics, read and wrote in latin but they'd speak with a bias towards their own native tongue (no recordings of sound to show how things were really pronounced, or pronounced elsewhere).

When it came to naming plants and animals, whilst they started off with words from latin, Greek started to come into it as well. They then brought in names of people. In the earlier days people's names were often latinised, so naming species after them wasn't an issue. But now there have been many species named after people (non-latinised) and their correct pronunciation wouldn't be based on latin phoenetics, whatever anyone decided that might be. Another trend is to use names from indigenous languages and place names. It throws the whole business of pronunciation up in the air.

In reality the system was set up to give accuracy in written form, not in pronunciation. That's why you get so many "experts" giving their opinion with most of them being different.

My undergraduate advisor would always say when asked the question of how to pronounce any given name that since "Latin is a dead language it doesn't matter how you pronounce it as long as you spell it correctly!"

[dalmatiansoap]

Seems like Latin and Slav languages have a lot in common.

[richnorm]

English pronunciation (and vocabularly) is constantly changing, the idea that there is a correct way to say words is surely wrong but some word mangling just grates... There's and advert here for chilli con carne with carne pronounced carn as in barn. Gets me every time!

[monkeyranch]

On a curious tangent, here is a article and map of American English dialects which was devised with pronunciation couplets such as Alberto's "watch or wotch", etc. Demonstrates the inconclusiveness on how to properly pronounce "live" languages yet alone "dead" ones such as Latin. Got to love the gray/grey areas in this world of gradations and continual evolution rather than crisp delineation and static concepts.

Another tangent question. Of course, Latin is the scientific language of the western/European world. With the resurgence and prominence of Chinese and Indian culture in these modern times, does either language have a scientific binomial system of it's own for describing species which might rival Latin one day, especially in the East? Mandarin is the most spoken language in the world after all, with nearly three times the number of speakers as the next closest rivals, Spanish and English.

[Alberto]

Language is certainly something fascinating!

[tropicbreeze]

It reminds me of the trick question back in my school days:

Q: How do you spell "fish"? (verbal question, of course.)

A: GHOTI

"GH" as in enough is pronounced "F"

"O" as in women is pronounced "I"

"TI" as in nation is pronounced "SH"

[tropicbreeze]

Another memory from back then is a poem I got into trouble for putting up as a poster.

Latin is a dead language

As dead as dead could be

It killed the ancient Romans

And now it's killing me

(No idea who the author was.)

[tjwalters]

...it's spelled, "Raymond Luxury Yacht," but it's pronounced, "Throat Warbler Mangrove."