Do you bleach your seeds before germinating?

[Matt in SD]

Hi All,

I've been germinating seeds for fun for a couple years now and while I've germinated quite a few different species, my success ratio tends to be pretty low.  One general observation I've made is that I've had very good results, like 90% and higher germination overall, with larger seeds (1cm or greater diameter) like Areca, Hyphaene, Bismarkia, Hyophorbe, and Aiphanes.   But pretty poor results with small seeds like Pinanga, Ptychosperma, small seeded Dypsis and Geonoma, probably 20% germination or worse for all of these (many have been 0%).

I typically treat my seeds with a ~5% bleach solution for 10-30s before putting into germination medium (usually coco-peat).  This definitely helps prevent rot, but I'm wondering if the smaller seeds (or seeds with a thinner coating) are maybe getting wrecked by the bleach.  I know other people out there bleach their seeds so have any of you noticed or suspected the bleach may be hurting viability for some seeds?  It's always sort of made me nervous, I have to admit.

I just can't figure out why my rates are so low for many seeds.  Some have been purchased so viability is always a question, but some I collected myself and were definitely fresh.  I've tried baggies, sterilite containers, an incubator, bottom heat, different areas of my greenhouse etc...  Definitely haven't found the magic combination yet.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Matt

[The Germinator]

I have erratic rates too. My Big ones seem to Germinate easier, I have had good luck the same ones you mentioned as well as Veitchia. I spray mine with fungicide, I do not use bleach.

[bgl]

Matt,

I don't do ANYTHING except clean the seeds. Pinanga and Ptychosperma seeds should germinate like crazy. I know these are particularly easy simply by looking underneath my various palms. The ones that have a groundcover of volunteer seedlings are obviously pretty easy. You may be overdoing things!

Bo-Göran

[chris.oz]

Smaller seeds will  dry out faster than larger seeds when left in the sun.  Seed fertility is very much related to the moisture content.    If you are dealing with rainforest species,  they would not generally  drop into full sun,  but if they do,  in a temperate climate they could dry quickly.  Seed fertility is measured in weeks and months,  rather than years,  unless we are talking desert species.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Matt

If you clean your seeds very well and make sure that there is no fruit on the seed, you do not need to bleach. The bleach is also used to make sure that there are no insects on them also, but after that good clean, as long as the seeds are kept in a plastic bag or put down straight after cleaning you will do just fine no problem.

The problem with insects (white fly, and wood borer ect.) is that they are inside the seed already so the bleach and even some insecticides is not going to hurt them. So when picking seed try to see if it has been stung but on some of the smaller seeds this is impossible.

Make sure that the seeds have at least 20% moisture when you are maybe sending seed to friends or storing for a while once you increase the moisture from over 20% them the seed will want to start to germinate. But some sp like licuala can take at least one year to germinate and if some were picked to early, they will germinate the following year that is if the seed is looked after in a safe environment.

Some of the basselinia's can be up to 2 years to take to germinate these don’t seem to mind if they dry out, as long as they are soaked for a day before bedding and kept away from insects they should be NEVER left out in the open after cleaning and before germination..

And for improvement in your germination on your smaller species try the way that I listed not that long a go maybe 2 and a half weeks ago I will list a photo of some calyptrocalyx that took 2 and a half months to get here from a very remote province there is over 90%germinationafter after 6 months.

I make these guys use bleach as that’s the only thing they can get in these remote areas. Hope this brings up your germination to a least 60 plus %good luck, I will list that photo tomorrow for you,

Clayton

[Phil]

Matt,

The single most important factor in successful germination is the quality and origin of the seeds.  In general, plants that live in more arid areas have longer shelf lives.   I think this is Mother Nature's way of protecting the species.  These seeds can wait for the next rainy season.  But a more tropical seed (often smaller, but not always) tend to have a short shelf life.  Mother Nature didn't have to program in seed longevity.  These seeds should drop and germinate with year-round tropical conditions.  Now, if Bo goes out and picks some ripe but small tropical seeds, he's going to get great germination.  But, if he sells them to a broker and that broker distributes them throughout the world, germination will be much lower.  Think about the time required for a seed to go from habitat back to a more central area for cleaning; then onto a broker; and (if lucky) at this point promptly to you.  This takes weeks, if not months.  All things being equal, your best results for most species are when you pick and promptly lay down seeds.  There are exceptions to this rule, but in general it is true.

Phil

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Phil

I have done a few tests with tropical seed some of which are known for there short viability like Pigafetta I have stored this seed for up to 1 year in a sealed bag in a cool spot with only about 15% moisture and then put the seeds down I got at least 70% germination sure I probably lost 20% or a little more than if they were put down as soon as possible, but I think as long as you get better than 60% it makes it viable.  

Also some of the licuala’s seem to have a biological clock no mater how perfect the conditions the seed will not germinate until this clock lets them, im sure you would have germinated licuala elegans this one is a good example of these types of seeds there are quite a few others, and at least half are from the tropics

So what I’m trying to say is if the seed is well looked after, dried in the shade and not let them dry them out to much(NO full sun), and these are kept with about 20% moisture in a sealed bag there is no reason beside insect infestation that these seeds still should not give a good germination

Ps that little fly that you some times see is laid in the seed at a very early stage when the seed is only just forming this is one of the biggest problems as it is near impossible to tell.

[Logolight]

Before I sowed my 20 Carpies I gave them a 10% bleach bath for 1 minute.  All but 1 germinated.  

The way I look at it, you have nothing to lose by using bleach.  It's possible that as you were prepping your materials your hands may have touched something that was contaminated with bacteria or fungus.  So then when you handle the seeds you could end up contaminating them as well.  Or there's a chance that your germinating medium may have been contaminated by an unkown source befor you aquired it.  I really don't know the likelyhood for sure but I figure it's better to be safe than sorry.

[Kris]

(Matt in SD @ Feb. 01 2007,02:06)

QUOTE

I just can't figure out why my rates are so low for many seeds.  Some have been purchased so viability is always a question, but some I collected myself and were definitely fresh.  I've tried baggies, sterilite containers, an incubator, bottom heat, different areas of my greenhouse etc...  Definitely haven't found the magic combination yet.

Dear matt  

all what you have said even i have experienced it.the result i

stopped importing seeds & started to buy grown up specimans

from local nurseries.

want to know reason the seeds are old stocks_that's it.and all

online companies do not state how old their seeds are.

and many collect seeds form unknown sources ?

I do not have international credit card_since india is a socialistic state,you can import goods if you only export goods.so i have to relay on my u.s friends who work there And bring those purschased seeds after 6 to 8 months,but my hitch is the seeds are already 6 to 8 months old in the seeds stockist place.

Result no germination or not up to expectation.

But americans have a choice all our members are trading fresh

seeds Or selling fresh seeds where you can go and purschase

those fresh seeds from them.instead buying form annonimus

traders_you have a choice my friend.

these guys are blowing their lungs out telling that it fresh seeds and what we do,turn a blind eye to it and go on buying

seeds from online stores etc..

Guys wake up,or you will all end up hating the germination

process of palm seeds.and guys some say they have already

germinated seeds in their possesion.why on earth people wont

buy such seeds than waiting for some seed to pop-up !

Think before you indulge,and iam from india i do not have any

vested intreast to say the above_ So wake up guys.

Love,

Kris(India).

[Matt in SD]

Sounds like bleach is not the issue.  I also had figured that smaller seeds would dry out more quickly.  

The odd thing to me is that the Pinanga and Ptychosperma seeds that I had fairly low germination rates on were from Bo.  They sat around in Hawaii for about a week or two with the fruit, then I washed them there and put the cleaned seeds in ziploc bags, definitely not dry.  They were in the bag for less than a month before I got them into moist coco-peat for germination.  I got a lot of seeds to germinate, but I had several hundred seeds of each so I'm pretty sure I never got more than 25% (probably let them go for 3-4 months before chucking the leftovers).

I'll keep trying.  I have recently thought it might be interesting to start a separate forum on here for giving germination results of specific seeds from specific sources that people could continually update.  I'm not sure if the seed dealers would like this or not...they'd probably get good sales on the seeds people say are doing great, and also it would be hard for people to complain about viability if someone else got good germination from the same lot of seeds, but it would also be pretty clear when no-one gets germination for a particular lot. I'm sure a lot of us are buying the same seeds from the same sources at the same time and it would be valuable to compare our results with different methods.  What do you all think?

Matt

[Utopia Palms]

Hi all

This is the seed that took 2 and a half months to get to me, also it was stuck in quarantine for another 2 weeks and now the seed is over 6 months old ,I did not send any of this seed out because of the time it took to arrive. The seed germinated well because this seed was never let dry out and was well looked after in a proper manner so the viability is still very good as you can see.

Note that 5% bleach is enough any more than this and you will affect your germination!

In a past topic I saw seeds being display in open containers like candy for one of the shows, this was crazy I wonder if this seed was then taken home and sold; if so no wonder some of the germination rates are so low.

It is really quit easy to germinate fresh seed or older seed that has been well looked after. I think some are trying to hard, as for fungus the main reason for this is that the seeds have not been cleaned well enough and there is fruit still embedded in the fiber of the seed.

I do hope this helps you guys and girls, always ask before you buy about the seed and how it has been looked after and how old it is!

Clayton.

[Utopia Palms]

One more photo.

[Matt in SD]

Thansk Clayton,

I'm looking forward to the day that my germination containers look like that.  I have been shooting for a 5% bleach solution but haven't really measured it out (just dump a bit in).  I'll be more careful in the future to make a accurate 5% solution.

Can you give me a bit more info about the post you mentioned where you gave germinatino advice (Topic title or something), I haven't been able to find it.

Matt

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Matt.

It was in seed germination by utopia palms I will have a look for you, and try to bring it back but I some times  have a hard time in finding these things as well they seem to get lost back there some were!

Clayton

[MattyB]

So what are they best ways to clean a seed?  I've been using a small nylon brush and brushing each seed under running water.  Boy, that sure takes a long time and gets really hard on small seeds.  Or what do you do w/ seeds that have those crevases that like to hold onto fruit?  I've been just putting these seeds into pots w/ soil and using no bottom heat.  I've found that the only way to prevent rotting is to either be absolutely sterile (no fruit) and use bottom heat or use no heat and just bury the seeds in a pot of soil.

[Kris]

Dear Clayton  

Well said and those stills_hey iam very jelous of that high rate

of germination.

terrefic job !

Love,

Kris.

[BigWaveDave]

Does anyone know if routinely spraying your seeds with fungicide or neem oil to keep out insects and fungus, will slow or prevent germination?  What if the outer shell of the seed has been removed or has been filed down (the method matt mentioned in his other germination related post)?

Is there anyone that has not had any problems with fungus or mold or insects because they have managed to keep their germination setup completely sterile?

[Trópico]

Use vermiculite for small and tender seeds.

[MattyB]

(BigWaveDave @ Feb. 02 2007,08:12)

QUOTE

Does anyone know if routinely spraying your seeds with fungicide or neem oil to keep out insects and fungus, will slow or prevent germination?  What if the outer shell of the seed has been removed or has been filed down (the method matt mentioned in his other germination related post)?

Is there anyone that has not had any problems with fungus or mold or insects because they have managed to keep their germination setup completely sterile?

Dave, those C. tepijilote seeds that you gave me are germinating well.  There were so many that I didn't want to brush each one and sterilize so I just popped the seed out of the fruit, washed w/ soap and water and coated w/ a heavy coating of Daconil.  This was an experiment to see if a heavy coating of fungicide inhibits germination.  Well, apparently it dosen't because I'm getting at least 90% germination and they're just sitting in perlite in a sealed container in the unheated greenhouse.  The seeds are covered in a white fungicide coating.

And yes, I've managed to keep many baggies/containers completely sterile, use bottom heat, and there's been no mold/bugs.  I use 100% perlite.

[Matt in SD]

Dave,

I have seen almost no fungus problems using coco-peat.  I have had mold on seeds  few times (rarely), but it never spreads to the media.  It seems as if the coco-peat inherently resists fungal growth.  I got tons of mold in vermiculite.  Some of this could do with the source of the materials though and it could vary based on where you are.  

I germinate in sealed containers so insects are not an issue.

Clayton, I am curious when you have hundreds/thousands of seeds like that and get such germination rates, how does you success rate go from germination to 1-leaf seedling to 4 leafer etc...  Do you end up with thousands of mature plants?

Matt

[MattyB]

I have a friend, Leafer Sutherland, he get's about 24% germination rate.

[gsn]

(MattyB @ Feb. 02 2007,13:43)

QUOTE

I have a friend, Leafer Sutherland, he get's about 24% germination rate.

Does his germination rate go UP or DOWN when he is doing a MOVIE instead of TELEVISION?

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Matt in SD

Yes I end up with thousands some times if you keep them protected from all the normal problems, rats mice other animals mites and the other normal problems they grow fine.

If I do end up with too many of one sp I place these in a darker shade house and they sit in suspended animation until needed they can hold like this for many years up to 10 years or more, once I need them I bring them out and pot them on and give them more light and they start to grow again I do not like to waist them, I do some times put a lot in the ground..

And Frank use some perlite with your vermiculite this adds air to your mix it will help a lot. They can rot in straight vermiculite very easy.

Dave if your seeds do start to fungus up the seed has not been cleaned enough take them out and give them another clean, if the seed is old this is a different sort of fungus there is no stopping this one remove those seeds and put in the garbage, the seed will crack open and this fungus will come from inside the seed it is very easy to see and tell this type of fungus.

As for insects there are so many different ones that it would take a very long explanation to cover all of them. So if you have your seeds in a sterile environment, sealed container use it like a gas chamber if you start to see insects, give it a “slight” spray with an insecticide and close the lid, you might have to do this a few times it should not effect your germination on the remaining good seeds (uninfected seed) Hope this helps

And Matt.B

Nothing beats cleaning your seed by hand you get to see exactly what is going on, it can be hard and can take some time.

but you will get the best out come this way..

[Palmtrader]

I have used a 5% bleach solution on tens of thousands of seeds particuarly Trachycarpyus species with no effect on the germination. It is a perferct way to remove any mould accumulated during transit. A quick dip for no more than 10 seconds should'nt have any effect. Cocopeat is a major constituent used by most growers here in Spain.

[Kris]

Dear guys  

we are talking about bleaching agent_i assume its a chlorine

bleach used for cloths & on dressing.

But our drinking water supplied by metrowater department is

very highly clorinated and i use this water to wash & soak the

palm seeds for around 3 days or so.the water itself smells

chlorine.

but my seeds never germinate what so ever.no fungas attack,

no mould formation.but sleeping quietly for months to gether.

i have lost hope on this germination means and have gone

buying grown-up speciman palms.but one problem that i face

is that i do not have accesses to all the varities you guys have

in the U.S.

so it prompts me to get seeds from there as and when my

friends are there_but i dont like this method.

waiting waiting & waiting_how long !

Love,

Kris.

[Utopia Palms]

Hi Kris

Looks like you are still having a hard time please don’t give up the more you experiment and try different things the more you will learn, you will get the hang of it soon!

First you should not soak your seeds for more than 12 hours this can cause a few different problems; you could also try using rain water in stead of your tap water.

With the hardier types of seed like Sabal and phoenix etc you could put these in a pot with a good mix and just water once a day; I would do this with bismarkia as well.

With the rest of your seed have a go with the way I listed for you not long ago in seed germination?

You do not need light to germinate seed I sometimes have over 100 boxes of seed germinating and just stack the boxes on top of each other in a room where there is no light and still get the same germination. .

Once you start to get the hang of it I think you will enjoy germinating your own seed so don’t give up.

Keep me posted on how you are going or if you have any more problems and I will help you were I can.  

All the best, And good luck!

Clayton

[chris.oz]

Kris,

Noting that your climate is very hot, it is possible your seed is getting too hot.  Ensure that the mixture never gets above 40C,  and preferably never above 35C.  Ensure it never dries out,  but stays moist.    Dont put the seed mix in the sun

Once I brought a bag of Livistona seed back from Queensland,  I left it in the plastic bag under my bed and forgot about it.   No cleaning, no soaking, no media, no light,  just constant moderate warmth.... 20-25C.

Some months  later I was cleaning out under the bed and found a bag full of mouldy,  but fully germinated livistonas,  of which 50% are still alive today.

Left to themselves,  many types of palm seeds will germinate freely given moderate warmth and constant moisture.  

Keep trying....til you find what works for you.

[chris.oz]

Kris,

Having looked at conditions in your area,  it looks rather harsh in terms of heat and exposure to sun,  when you get your baby palms to germinate,  they will need protection .....that is shade and protection from drying winds.   Can you provide a location in your garden where your seedlings will be protected ?  

Clayton made a very interesting point,   that seedlings  can stay for years in deep shade,  and then be activated by bringing them into more light,  so dont be afraid of growing on in quite a shady spot.  

I have many chamaedorea and a lot of shade in my garden and rarely lose a palm there.   In my fully exposed growing area , where I get full sun all day,   I have a lot of trouble keeping the pots watered and find that palms suffer from heat stress there.   During the drought and over summer in particular when humidities can be very low I do lose a significant number of  palms to drying out medium.

[calyptrocalyx&licuala freck]

Hello  Matt D

I  think you  may  have to  go  back  about  5 weeks,

or so,   I was  thinking  u  were  looking  for  the topic

on Bleaching  My  mistake, I'll   have  a  look  as  well,

I  Think  it  was  topic  started   by  Chris in  oz.

Chris  do  you  remember   this  at  all , may  help out

Cheers  .

                  Mike.E.

[JT in Japan]

Bumping this thread up. Being spring/early summer, lots of people are likely still germinating seeds. I'm having mold issues with mine, and this thread has lots of good advice and hints. Very helpful.

[ErikSJI]

Cleaning over 500 seeds in 10 minutes.

[SoulofthePlace]

On 2/1/2007 at 2:43 PM, Logolight said:

Before I sowed my 20 Carpies I gave them a 10% bleach bath for 1 minute.  All but 1 germinated. 

One place I read says do not bleach bath for longer than 10 seconds. So is it okay to 10% bleach bath for up to a minute?

[palmad Merc]

I soak mine overnight in 3% hydrogen peroxide, it oxygenates the seeds and increases germination rates 

[aztropic]

I also use a H2O2 soak (couple hours) and rarely have any mold problems.

 

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona