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Posted

I'm looking for advice on how to successfully keep palms healthy in those black plastic nursery containers.

I don't know why anything I keep for longer than a year eventually declines in appearance and health. Some more than others.

It could be the soil mix I am using, the fertilizing (or lack of), or the watering schedule.

Can anyone give me just a general outline of what works for them?

Posted

What are you trying to grow?

Posted

Palms in pots require way more care than a palm in the ground, which is why I usually plant everything straight into the ground.

However, two common reasons for crappy looking potted palms are:

1) Lack of fertilizer - pots leach out fertilizer very quickly, you need a slow release fertilizer or you need to add fertilizer to the water. Most nurseries inject the fertilizer in the watering system.

2) Watering problems: if a potted plant ever dries out a bit too much, the soil can shrink and leave a small gap between the pot walls and the dirt. In subsequent irrigation the water just goes down the side and doesn't actually water the pot. It's very difficult to re-wet a pot that has dried.

These two reasons are why I hate potted gardening.

Axel at the Mauna Kea Cloudforest Bioreserve

On Mauna Kea above Hilo. Koeppen Zone Cfb (Montane Tropical Cloud Forest), USDA Hardiness Zone 11b/12a, AHS Heat zone 1 (max 78F), annual rainfall: 130-180", Soil pH 5.

Click here for our current conditions: KHIHILO25

Posted (edited)

Certain palms like different sized pots. For instance. Washingotnia Filifera like to be over potted and require the roots to have plenty of room grow downward. So for this palm a skinny tall pot would work. If you put this palm in a short pot it will die or slow its growth.

Trachycarpus fortunei on the other hand like a short but fat pot as the roots grow outward not deep.

Also watering is important. For instance with these two palms the Filifera only likes the roots to get water. Do not water the fronds of this palm because when small it would kill it.

The Trachy is opposite. It likes to be watered from the top and the fronds need water.

Hope that helps.

Edited by BigD
Posted

fertilizer and moisture are stuff you need to always consider when potting long term, learned that from all my previous plants I've held in pots for years. one of the biggest benefits of up potting annually or so is that It gives the plants more nutrients from the new soil in the new larger pot. i'm planning on growing quite a few palms and would probably start a lot from 1gal (and seedlings) and mini treepots but I would step up to a slightly larger container once roots start showing near the bottom, maybe from 1gal to 3g then 5g and for seedlings I can go from 4" to 4x9" mini treepots then to a 5gal

Posted (edited)

salt buildup can cause palms to wither and die. If you are using hard(unfiltered) water, salts build up in the soil and limit the ability of the palm to take in water and nutrients through the roots. Salts can also build up from fertilizer use as salts are present int he fert. Water will flow to the high salt concentration(fick's law), so this salt can even pull water out of the roots. Every so often(1x a month?) you should flood with distilled water and re fertilize. If you cannot do this, humic acid is a salt chelator and can be used in dilute form to pull salts out of the soil when you rinse it. Many of the specialty nurseries ONLY use distilled water for irrigation.

Edited by sonoranfans

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

Posted

Will, I'm sure you'll get a lot of answers here but another reason may be how long the palm has been in the pot when you bought it. I have bought palms that already have the roots coming out of the containers and as soon as they are freed and planted the palms start to become healthier specimens. If you have to keep them in containers give them a little extra TLC.

Peter

Peter

hot and humid, short rainy season May through October, 14* latitude, 90* longitude

Posted

Will, it's important to know what kind of palms you're trying to grow.

Some kinds are a no-go for the long run, usually because they get too big. Others can be maintained for decades.

Let us know!

Let's keep our forum fun and friendly.

Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or lost profits or revenue, claims by third parties or for other similar costs, or any special, incidental, or consequential damages arising out of my opinion or the use of this data. The accuracy or reliability of the data is not guaranteed or warranted in any way and I disclaim liability of any kind whatsoever, including, without limitation, liability for quality, performance, merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose arising out of the use, or inability to use my data. Other terms may apply.

Posted
  On 5/17/2013 at 7:22 PM, DoomsDave said:

Will, it's important to know what kind of palms you're trying to grow.

Some kinds are a no-go for the long run, usually because they get too big. Others can be maintained for decades.

Let us know!

The knowledge is oozing from one of the biggest container rancher on this forum.

Posted
  On 5/17/2013 at 3:41 PM, Axel in Santa Cruz said:

Palms in pots require way more care than a palm in the ground, which is why I usually plant everything straight into the ground.

However, two common reasons for crappy looking potted palms are:

1) Lack of fertilizer - pots leach out fertilizer very quickly, you need a slow release fertilizer or you need to add fertilizer to the water. Most nurseries inject the fertilizer in the watering system.

2) Watering problems: if a potted plant ever dries out a bit too much, the soil can shrink and leave a small gap between the pot walls and the dirt. In subsequent irrigation the water just goes down the side and doesn't actually water the pot. It's very difficult to re-wet a pot that has dried.

These two reasons are why I hate potted gardening.

3)Black pots in direct sunlight tend to cook the roots on the sun side.Keep potted plants in groups or put black pot inside of another pot or shield the pot with something.

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Mesa, Arizona

 

Temps between 29F and 115F each year

Posted (edited)

This was a general question I had because I would like to pick up a few palms this summer and hold until I can find a place to plant them either in my garden or in my client's gardens. I like to have a few things on hand. I would also like to begin starting up some seeds, and am thinking ahead on how to care for them in containers, again, until I can find a place to use them. For instance, Mule, Sabal, Brahea, Butia, I'd like to try germinating. I like to get things in the ground rather than keep in pots for too long, but with young palms, I expect that they will be in containers for a while.

An important consideration is going to be a potting medium to use. Is there one mix that will work well for a wide range of palms in containers, or is each genus going to have it's own requirements? I suppose this is something I will have to learn along the way.

Thanks for the information thus far.

Edited by Will
Posted

For instance, Mule, Sabal, Brahea, Butia, I'd like to try germinating. I like to get things in the ground rather than keep in pots for too long, but with young palms, I expect that they will be in containers for a while.


Unless you plan on growing hundreds to use in a landscaping business,those are cheap species to buy as you need them,yet would take 5 years or more of container growing before you could use them.

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Mesa, Arizona

 

Temps between 29F and 115F each year

Posted

Yes of course, I understand that. I just want to germinate a few seeds as a hobby and buy ready to go palms as needed for actual installations.

Posted

For a potting medium I usually do my own blend of potting soil (Kellogs- with bat guano, yeah yeah!) from the big box store, pearlite, and topsoil from my local nursery/ specialty shop, bought by the cubic yard or half yard (great savings there over big box, BTW). The topsoil I get is a bit sandy with a lot of organics mixed in. I try to err on the side of a lighter, well drained mix, especially for the seedlings. With the seedlings I usually always plant in the tall tree pots- the 13" tall ones. I will also start with the small "band" pots- the 9" tall square ones depending on the species. The following year or 18 months in, I will upsize to 5 gal. size or tall tree potsrespectively. I'm probably doing it all wrong, but it works for me.

Check out Stuewe & sons for the pots.

As far as the salt build up goes, a trick to that is to buy a plastic keg tub and leech the salts, etc. out of the soil by letting the pot soak for a couple hours in water in the tub. This I only have to do every once in a while- and I find the build up to be problematic only after a couple years of growth in the same pot.

Things do grow and look better once in the ground like everyone else has said. Of course you could just let the roots grow out of the pot and into the ground and you would have the best of both worlds, right Dave :winkie:? (no offense!) I have a couple palms that I need to remove the container from around the palm and build up the soil around them. Those palms have planted themselves- oops!

Oh yeah, fertilizer. I put the granular stuff in just like the in-ground palms, but I use just a sprinkle- not too much since the roots are contained.

Also, since you're in the 707, most of the stuff you're going to be selling/ keeping alive will be pretty tough anyways and can handle a lot of variability. Fortunately, also, our sun is a bit cooler out here and sometimes- especially the springtime- the sun on the blak plastic is very helpful.

Hope this helps.

Oakley, California

55 Miles E-NE of San Francisco, CA

Solid zone 9, I can expect at least one night in the mid to low twenties every year.

Hot, dry summers. Cold, wet winters.

  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

I was thinking about this topic today; I wonder if I can hitch a ride on this thread with a related question for the nurseries/professionals out there: we know that palms in the ground grow better and faster, but whenever I see a shot of nurseries here, I see rows and rows of pots. Given that your income is related to how fast you can bring palms to market, do you, for example, put a hundred washies in the ground for a year or two to get some growth, and then pot them? How do you pros get enough salable potted palms in the shortest possible time?

Thanks,

JT

Shimoda, Japan, Lat: 36.6N, Long: 138.8

Zone 9B (kinda, sorta), Pacific Coast, 1Km inland, 75M above sea level
Coldest lows (Jan): 2-5C (35-41F), Hottest highs (Aug): 32-33C (87-91F)

Posted

I'm sure they buy seedlings through 1g in bulk if they're not germinating seeds themselves

Posted
  On 5/17/2013 at 5:30 PM, sonoranfans said:

salt buildup can cause palms to wither and die. If you are using hard(unfiltered) water, salts build up in the soil and limit the ability of the palm to take in water and nutrients through the roots. Salts can also build up from fertilizer use as salts are present int he fert. Water will flow to the high salt concentration(fick's law), so this salt can even pull water out of the roots. Every so often(1x a month?) you should flood with distilled water and re fertilize. If you cannot do this, humic acid is a salt chelator and can be used in dilute form to pull salts out of the soil when you rinse it. Many of the specialty nurseries ONLY use distilled water for irrigation.

The quality of water can be a big issue long term and is often overlooked.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

Posted
  On 6/8/2013 at 3:42 AM, KennyRE317 said:

I'm sure they buy seedlings through 1g in bulk if they're not germinating seeds themselves

Thanks for the reply, Kenny. I suspect you're right. But once they buy all the potted stuff and seedlings, do they put any of it in the ground for a period, say a couple seasons, to get better growth out of it? If they're only buying a 3-gal palm, sitting on it for a season, then reselling it as a 3-gal, or maybe 4-gal plant, margins must be fairly small, perhaps under 20%. The real margins will come from that seedling, which they've paid 50 cents for, which they sell as a 5-gal plant at $150-$300 each. And the key to that is turning the seedling into that mature plant in the shortest possible time, which means putting it in the ground.

I'm purely speculating here. And I think I might be hijacking the thread; apologies. I'll put this aside for a day or two and perhaps try a new thread.

Cheers,

JT

Shimoda, Japan, Lat: 36.6N, Long: 138.8

Zone 9B (kinda, sorta), Pacific Coast, 1Km inland, 75M above sea level
Coldest lows (Jan): 2-5C (35-41F), Hottest highs (Aug): 32-33C (87-91F)

Posted
  On 6/8/2013 at 11:43 PM, mortaljp said:

  On 6/8/2013 at 3:42 AM, KennyRE317 said:

I'm sure they buy seedlings through 1g in bulk if they're not germinating seeds themselves

sell as a 5-gal plant at $150-$300 each

On average in the US,unusual palms often sell for $10 per gallon size.Common,mass produced palms are even cheaper.Local big box stores offer several species in 3 gallon size for about $15,and 15 gallon size for about $45.

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

Mesa, Arizona

 

Temps between 29F and 115F each year

Posted
  On 5/18/2013 at 12:08 AM, aztropic said:

  On 5/17/2013 at 3:41 PM, Axel in Santa Cruz said:

Palms in pots require way more care than a palm in the ground, which is why I usually plant everything straight into the ground.

However, two common reasons for crappy looking potted palms are:

1) Lack of fertilizer - pots leach out fertilizer very quickly, you need a slow release fertilizer or you need to add fertilizer to the water. Most nurseries inject the fertilizer in the watering system.

2) Watering problems: if a potted plant ever dries out a bit too much, the soil can shrink and leave a small gap between the pot walls and the dirt. In subsequent irrigation the water just goes down the side and doesn't actually water the pot. It's very difficult to re-wet a pot that has dried.

These two reasons are why I hate potted gardening.

3)Black pots in direct sunlight tend to cook the roots on the sun side.Keep potted plants in groups or put black pot inside of another pot or shield the pot with something.

aztropic

Mesa,Arizona

yes I remember this in arizona, anything black gets cooked. I remember using aluminum foil on small pots, ugly but effective. Florida sun isnt quite that hot, but long sun exposure hours would also dictate that smaller palms are protected from heating in the pot.

Formerly in Gilbert AZ, zone 9a/9b. Now in Palmetto, Florida Zone 9b/10a??

 

Tom Blank

Posted
  On 6/8/2013 at 11:43 PM, mortaljp said:

  On 6/8/2013 at 3:42 AM, KennyRE317 said:

I'm sure they buy seedlings through 1g in bulk if they're not germinating seeds themselves

Thanks for the reply, Kenny. I suspect you're right. But once they buy all the potted stuff and seedlings, do they put any of it in the ground for a period, say a couple seasons, to get better growth out of it? If they're only buying a 3-gal palm, sitting on it for a season, then reselling it as a 3-gal, or maybe 4-gal plant, margins must be fairly small, perhaps under 20%. The real margins will come from that seedling, which they've paid 50 cents for, which they sell as a 5-gal plant at $150-$300 each. And the key to that is turning the seedling into that mature plant in the shortest possible time, which means putting it in the ground.

I'm purely speculating here. And I think I might be hijacking the thread; apologies. I'll put this aside for a day or two and perhaps try a new thread.

Cheers,

JT

I doubt that they would plant small plants in he field just to dig them out later and repot. Most of the field specimens I see were put in after they outgrew a 15g or 20g where the cost of the buckets start not being cost effective . This is why sometimes you'll be able to get large outgrown 15g for cheap since nurseries tend not to want to keep repotting in oversized containers or field plant them, when they start over growing out of the pot they stop looking as healthy for the most part

Posted

:huh: Oh - how to keep a palm in a container for multiple years

Where is BS Man about Palms when his forte is needed ??? :blink:

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

Posted

I love this thread, almost every response has some good ideas for me.

Most palms, do not require nearly as much phosphorus as nitrogen or potassium so in containers this is very important as there will be an inevitable build up of some salts even with flushing and using distilled water. It is possible to avoid a build up of damaging salts though by using the correct fertiliser.

Phosphorus applied to the soil will not leach out and remains available for a very long period. Too much phosphorus, especially on alkaline soils but for palms can be damaging on any soils, will tie up or render unavailable most minor trace elements, especially iron. Once this situation occurs it can take as long as 12 months to correct or lower the phosphorus level in the soil or large pot by which time the palm already is in irreversible decline. So one would have to pull it from the pot wash the soil off the roots and replant in fresh soil. For longish term potted palm project not ideal.

For this reason, a fertiliser formula relatively low in phosphorus as much as 7-2-7 is better. Using alkaline soil even slightly more potassium than nitrogen would be better but its better not to use alkaline soils. The cheapest method of fertilising is to stabilise the soil PH of course.

Another thing to look out for on fertiliser tables is the kind of Potassium this is very important IMO. Muriate of potash (KCl), also known as potassium chloride, is the cheapest source of potassium and is therefore frequently found in fertilisers, but it's the most undesirable kind because of its high chloride level. Sulphate of potash or sulphate of potash-magnesium are preferable (the best) sources of potassium. A build up of chloride will kill palms, seedling roots.

My 2cents. As far as potting medium for long term potted palms is concerned IMO less organic material like peat that can decompose the better,though coconut fibre is quite long lasting. So a mineral rich sandy loam soil with added clay (very high in minerals, fertile stuff) granules maybe, not the baked clay but clay that can leach out nutrients, dissolve. Im not sure Im wondering the same now cause I want to plant up a permanent palm feature. Most of my potted plms end up in the ground anyway after a few years and its a big job as they get huge as do the pots.

Cerdic

Non omnis moriar (Horace)

Posted

Just gave up on this idea. 250US$ for a meter high Trachy princeps??? Wanted three in a cluster, because I heard they were very slow growing. :(

Cerdic

Non omnis moriar (Horace)

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