Here's the scenario. I have one of Patric's Jubutygrus in planter next to a salt water pool. When we prepped the 6' x 6' bed when building the pool, we dug about 6' down (clay below that), added drainage, filled 4 feet with sand, then 2 feet with green sand. We've been dumping compost in it the past three years. The soil up top looks and smells great. Drains great, all the seasonal color does well underneath. My Jubutygrus always looks like doo-doo.

I've fertilized with Osmocote, Ironite and such fairly decently. Looks kinda like Potassium and Magnesium deficiencies? I would think that would be impossible with the green sands?

Hi Buffy

I posted here the same problem with only one of my Jubutyagrus. Today I saw it again: The older leaves begin to show a lot of black/brown dots sometimes so many that the leaves look brown/black. On surfaces of the leaves that are shaded by other bending leaves they remain green or at least a lot better looking green. So for me it is clear that it is a kind of burning or sun sensivity of the leaves. This evening I saw this particular Jubutyagrus and asked myself if I will plant it in shade it will maybe look better.

Looks a lot like potassium deficiency. Butia seem to be pigs for it and will spot up like this when they don't get enough. Jubutiagrus grow best in full sun so that doesn't seem to be your problem. I have one in a shady spot and it's very green but very slow. I have a Queen-Bu-Ju in partial sun that is growing fast but it has needed supplemental potassium to keep it green and spot free.

What's the best slow release Potassium source?

Potassium deficiency manifests itself as yellowing from leaflet tips inward, never saw an article that suggested brown spotting. Could this be a fungus(graphiola leaf spot)? Has it been wet there? My jubutiagrus got spotted just like this from overhead water, now it gets none.

Potassium deficiency manifests itself as yellowing from leaflet tips inward, never saw an article that suggested brown spotting. Could this be a fungus(graphiola leaf spot)? Has it been wet there? My jubutiagrus got spotted just like this from overhead water, now it gets none.

From everything I've read about and experienced with potassium deficient palms, yellow to brownish spotting is the most common telltale sign of it. I have a large Brahea elulis that exhibits this behavior to its bottom leaves if I don't supplement with extra potash. If left untreated, the spotting will travel up to newer leaves and brown tipping will start on the lower leaves as the palm "grabs" potassium from those older leaves to survive. Feeding won't cure the affected leaves but will ensure that new leaves will remain green.

What's the best slow release Potassium source?

Lutz makes a great potassium fertilizer stake. You need to order these online since they're not carried in stores.

Here is my ref. leafspot from molds are present through the crown, K deficiency only on the older leaflets. also says rachis stay green with K deficiency, dont see that in Buffys palm as rachis are spotted.

http://miami-dade.ifas.ufl.edu/old/programs/commorn/publications/K-deficiency-of-palms.PDF

Edited April 22, 201313 yr by sonoranfans

still could be K deficiency, but I dont see the described yellow orange/brown, just brown.

my jubutiagrus in full sun has very little leafspotting, hardly noticable. For me it doesnt look like a sun sensitivity...

This thing has struggled like this since it was a strap leaf seedling.

This thing has struggled like this since it was a strap leaf seedling.

cameron, is the leaf spot only on the lower leaves? And again this is the schafer plant which is (JxB)xS. I recall you were one of the few that have both schafer and hooper jubutyagrus ((BxJ)xB)xS. Does the hooper plant have the same issues? If it is a deficiency, it could be excessive Mg in the soil, which can cause K deficiency... If you have spots throught most of the crown(except newest frond), it looks like mold spot. If its only on th elower leaves, it could be as Jim says K deficiency. You have to be real careful with K deficiency as there is an issue with K/Mg balance, too much of one will deprive th plant of the other... My plants with K deficiency invariably show some yellow though.

Edited April 22, 201313 yr by sonoranfans

Cameron, as I looked again I saw lots of flowers in the raised bed. two thoughts: 1) flowering fertilizers high in phos can cause micro deficiencies. 2) watering schedule, these do not like so much water due to jubaea and butia genes. Overhead watering appeared to cause mold spot on one of mine. the best soil for flowers is probably too heavy for this palm. Heavy mulching might be an issue for this hybrid(?).

Edited April 22, 201313 yr by sonoranfans

No one has mentioned the green sand. There's a foot of green sand below this palm. If anything, this thing is magnesium deficient, no?

No one has mentioned the green sand. There's a foot of green sand below this palm. If anything, this thing is magnesium deficient, no?

magnesium deficiencies are not manifested as spotted areas, as Mg is mobile within the plant, it tends to be banded yellowing not tiny spots like potassium deficiency. Also Mg deficiencies cause chlorotic conditions and I dont see that in your jubutyagrus...

I can tell you looking at your petunias, that your PH is around 6 or lower or else your petunias would be showing signs of iron def. and the calibrachoas (which looks like what you have planted) are particularly sensitive to higher PH's. They are happiest around 5.5-5.8. I don't know if this PH is too low for this palm or not. I don't know what the numbers are with the Osmocote that you used are, but I can tell you that bedding plant annuals don't need or use a lot of phos. , so if you did use a lot of it, you don't need to in the future. Also, bedding plants really do much better with a well draining soil, not a heavy soil.

my first thought was-how cold has the winter been? It looks like cold damage to me. But-it would not hurt to throw a few handfuls of epsom salts around the top of the soil (spread it out over the whole area -if it looks better, than do it every month and if it is a fungus-spray Daconil or Clearys on the leaves late one afternoon when its not going to rain for a while and keep the foliage dry. Keep an eye on the new foliage and see if the spots persist. Spray once a week as soon as you see the spots on the new leaves (if you do see them). Because its getting warmer, it should start to push out new leaves fairly fast and you can see if the Daconil is the answer. It may just be the colder weather that caused it. Do the leaves always look like this-even the new ones in the heat of the summer, or just winter/spring?

sure doesnt look like Mg deficiency at all to me

http://www.google.com/search?q=magnesium+deficiency+in+palms&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=AJZ1Ub7FBIae2gWBs4Ew&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1736&bih=844

might be potassium defficiency which will be aggravated by adding epsom salts(excess Mg inhibits K uptake).

I still think it could be mold spot.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pp142

Edited April 22, 201313 yr by sonoranfans

You could be right Tom, I don't know the numbers on the Osmocote. But I suspect that the Osmocote is not/nor has been releasing much these past months due to the cooler soil temps. Osmocote needs 60-70 degree soil temps to really release. and in 8a, I don't think that Buffy is getting those temps yet. So it might be def in all areas of nutrients, in which case adding mag isn't going to upset things that much because I don't think it will be an excess. I add mag to ferts all the time.

I do think that warm temps are going to help out a lot all the way around with this palm.

You could be right Tom, I don't know the numbers on the Osmocote. But I suspect that the Osmocote is not/nor has been releasing much these past months due to the cooler soil temps. Osmocote needs 60-70 degree soil temps to really release. and in 8a, I don't think that Buffy is getting those temps yet. So it might be def in all areas of nutrients, in which case adding mag isn't going to upset things that much because I don't think it will be an excess. I add mag to ferts all the time.

I do think that warm temps are going to help out a lot all the way around with this palm.

Kahili, I have read that if you already have K deficiency the best route is to treat with K, not to fertilize, as the ratio of mg/k is already too high. Adding epsom salts would be a big mistake in that case, and fertilizer a lesser mistake. Time release postsium, not potash, is the safest way as you dont want the K concentration to spike. I believe that some sulfur coated potash is one recommended way to treat. But in the case of a deficiency, it needs to be known what that deficiency is before treating. In this case, if it is mold spot a fungicide is the treament. Mold spots do not go away on older leaves, but anti fungal can help prevent it from spreading to the new leaves. I think if Camerons palm shows some spotting on any of the last 2-3 fully opened fronds, its likely mold spot, not potassium deficiency.

I agree that if its a fungus-Daconil is the way to go and will not hurt if its not. But I still suspect that the Osmocote is not/nor has been releasing and that there is a need to wait for warmer weather that will enable the Osmocote to start releasing (which may not be for another month). There will be potassium in the Osmocote. I would wait before adding more potash. Wait on the mag as well. Different plants can handle different mg/k ratios, and I am not familiar enough with palms to say what that is, esp since I don't think this palm has received either in a while.

I still think the winter weather has something to do with the appearance of the spots.

Buffy-I use Nutricote on my palms in the ground, but I don't fertilize them until sometime in May when the soil warms up so that the fert will be effective. If you want to get fert to your palms in the ground earlier than that, you might consider using a water soluble fert once a week once the soil temps are warmer than 45-50 degrees. I would use about 400 ppm drenching the soil all around the area under the leaves etc. Once you add the timed release fert, then discontinue the soluble fert., and just water to release the Osmocote.

No spots on newer growth. No one has answered how I can have potassium deficiencies with a foot of green sand underneath this. I'm leaning cold damage, but that's remarkable at 27F ultimate low. We did have frozen precipitation that stayed on the leaves for over a day.

I dont understand how you could have potassium deficiency either, an it doesnt look like that to me, but I have been wrong before. Looks like mold, and on mine it initially didnt have any spotting on new growth. but then slowly it spread. the one in full hot sun has very little of the spotting, and its gets NO overhead water unlike the other one that had it. I seriously doubt mine has K deficiency as I use copious amounts of florikan palm speical, best time release palm food I know of, defintitely better than osmocote accoring to U of F. If I were you I'd just treat with Daconil every 2-3 weeks and keep it fed. the spots wont go away, but they wont spread to newer leaflets as it grows if you dont treat. I'd also cut off the oldest fronds with all that nastiness.

It gets no overhead water. It's in full blazing sun.

It gets no overhead water. It's in full blazing sun.

how is your Hopper jubutyagrus doing? I had 2, one gots these spots the other not so much. I had an irrigation failure+ drought and the first one died. the one I sitll have ahs minor spotting, a tiny fraction of what you have. It is in full sun and gets no overhead water.

Mine are about the same as yours. The real winner is Jub x Queen. No spots. Ever.

What is the pH of the soil? This can cause nutrient lock up.

In the UK winter soil temps inhibit K take up. I dont know about Texas.

Keith: I don't know the pH, but based on the performance of the petunias as mentioned by kahili, I suspect very low. In fact, below 6, it looks like potassium and magnesium start to get locked up. I went ahead and added some good quality lime to the bed last night. I want to bring the pH up a bit. I think the cold exacerbates the problem, but there's something stoping this plant from getting potassium. The only thing I can guess is pH. And ultra low pH at that.

sure doesnt look like Mg deficiency at all to me

I disagree. The necrosis at the leaf ends does look like magnesium deficiency.

sure doesnt look like Mg deficiency at all to me

I disagree. The necrosis at the leaf ends does look like magnesium deficiency.

the spotting isnt Mg deficiency. Because Mg is mobile within the plant, unlike K, the Mg concentrations will equilibrate and you wont get that very localized effect shown on your plant. Necrosis at the leaflet tips of th eoldest fronds can happen for any number of reasons, including cold damage, an advanced funcal infection.

sure doesnt look like Mg deficiency at all to me

I disagree. The necrosis at the leaf ends does look like magnesium deficiency.

the spotting isnt Mg deficiency. Because Mg is mobile within the plant, unlike K, the Mg concentrations will equilibrate and you wont get that very localized effect shown on your plant. Necrosis at the leaflet tips of th eoldest fronds can happen for any number of reasons, including cold damage, an advanced funcal infection.

There's no fungus, I'm confident. The spotting I'm guessing is Potassium, but the consistent collapse and necrosis of older leaf tips looks like every Google picture I can find of palms with Magnesium deficiency. With a very low pH, this all makes sense.

Natural stands of Butia and queen doesn´t show this kind of spotting on the leaves that I have only on one of my Jubutyagrus.

looks the same problem I have here with ONE jubutyagrus. when i posted it some time ago , some folks said it could be something genetic.....Does the 'protected" part od the leaflets (by a bending or broken leaflet) also show this spotting????

sure doesnt look like Mg deficiency at all to me

I disagree. The necrosis at the leaf ends does look like magnesium deficiency.

the spotting isnt Mg deficiency. Because Mg is mobile within the plant, unlike K, the Mg concentrations will equilibrate and you wont get that very localized effect shown on your plant. Necrosis at the leaflet tips of th eoldest fronds can happen for any number of reasons, including cold damage, an advanced funcal infection.

There's no fungus, I'm confident. The spotting I'm guessing is Potassium, but the consistent collapse and necrosis of older leaf tips looks like every Google picture I can find of palms with Magnesium deficiency. With a very low pH, this all makes sense.

I do not see the classic intermediate symptoms of Mg deficiency at all, just necrosis at the end.

From U of F horticultural dept on landscape palms

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/IR00001730/00001

Magnesium Deficiency

Magnesium (Mg) deficiency is rarely fatal, and, like Fe deficiency, is primarily a cosmetic problem in landscape palms. It is a common deficiency especially for Canary Island date palms,

Classic symptoms of Mg deficiency are marginal chlorosis on oldest leaves, which progresses upward to younger foliage (Figure 16). In contrast to K deficiency symptoms of yellow-orange tissue in

older leaves, Mg deficiency is distinguished by the typically broad, lemon yellow band along the margin of older leaves, with a green center and a distinct

boundary between the yellow and green portions. When advanced, Mg deficiency also causes leaf tips to become necrotic. Symptomatic leaves will not

recover if Mg deficiency is treated, and chlorotic leaves must be replaced with new healthy leaves. Coated or uncoated prilled kieserite can be applied to prevent or correct Mg deficiency.

What is wrong with my Jubutyagrus?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29995-what-is-wrong-with-this-jubeutiagrus-jubaea-x-butiax-syagrus-romanz/

What is wrong with my Jubutyagrus?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29995-what-is-wrong-with-this-jubeutiagrus-jubaea-x-butiax-syagrus-romanz/

too many of these x-jubutyagrus showing the same symptoms... It must might be a genetic susceptibility of some kind...

What is wrong with my Jubutyagrus?

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29995-what-is-wrong-with-this-jubeutiagrus-jubaea-x-butiax-syagrus-romanz/

too many of these x-jubutyagrus showing the same symptoms... It must might be a genetic susceptibility of some kind...

That appears correct -- my xJubuyagrus has the same problem as Buffy's. The beautiful form of the palm is being marred. The susceptibility is to Potassium deficiency. My "soil" (lousy fill dirt) is very acid too; so let's see if liming paves the way for improvement. Besides limiting the availability of K, I read that Aluminum toxicity is a problem in acid soil (?) After liming I will use a dedicated Potassium fertilizer while limiting necessary Nitrogen and Mag to lower levels since these can compete with K too.

Soils here are acid and have high aluminium levels...but no one Butia or Syagrus romanzoffiana in the wild "complain" about the soil, of course. But for example Washingtonia robusta , Sabal mexicana and also some of my BxP show frequently signs of K deficiency, but that appears as yellow bigger dots on the older leaves and not those brown/black little dots as on my Jubutyagrus.

Soils here are acid and have high aluminium levels...but no one Butia or Syagrus romanzoffiana in the wild "complain" about the soil, of course. But for example Washingtonia robusta , Sabal mexicana and also some of my BxP show frequently signs of K deficiency, but that appears as yellow bigger dots on the older leaves and not those brown/black little dots as on my Jubutyagrus.

Yes finally someone who has actually seen K deficiency as described by the academic horticultural community. I had a serious potassium deficiency on copernicia after transplant, and it looks nothing all all like mold. Yellow/orange blotches alternating with green. Further, butias are known to have mineral deficiencies primarily at high pH, not low pH. My soil is also acid pH and I do not have deficiencies in phoenix rupicola, or any other micro sensitive palms after using florikan palm special for the past 2 years. Florida is notorious for potassium deficiency problems, but my palms show no yellow orange now, including 4 copernicia(which are perhaps the most susceptible to potassium deficiency of any palm).

Potassium defiency in some of my BxP

http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?/topic/29724-whats-happening-to-this-butia-x-parajubaea/?hl=sabal#entry481487

Sonora: I've sweetened the soil a bit, but I'm gonna consider your thoughts on fungus. You're making enough sense for me to at least treat it for fungus.