Hi Axel,

Was I that discouraging? I did not say you can not grow a Bismarkia, just that you need a perfect spot and it probably won't be all that impressive. I wish you all the success as I'm a big zone pusher myself and I enjoy discovering "impossibles" in the Bay Area like the Ice Cream Bean tree in your garden and Ficus damaropsis in Downtown Santa Cruz. Personally I think you should try Dypsis marojejyi, psammophila, Orange Crush, saintlucei, Licuala peltata Sumawongii, etc. etc.

In terms of the ultimate blue palm, those Copernicia hospita at Nong Nooch sure look even more impressive/refined than Bismarkia, and it supposedly has a bit cold hardiness also.

Daxin, you and a host of other people have discouraged me from growing a bizzie. Luen talked me out of it three years ago saying it's too frost tender. I want to grow one because they look spectacular. You saying it won't look spectacular isn't exactly a glowing endorsement, it's discouraging to say the least. You classify it along with the "impossibles" which is exactly what everyone says and it's why this palm isn't grown in Norcal.

You may be right, but it makes no sense based on the fact that growers in frostier places than Norcal say it's hardier than a queen palm. In fact a couple of people argued with me on the hardy sub-forum because I told them the common wisdom in California is that they are too frost tender. This year, I am going to include it in my "coin flips".

I have my insurance policy silver palms anyway: brahea clara, brahea armata (I have four of these and one is in full sun and is bright silver), and sabal uresana.

What I'd like to know is how many people have actually tried to grow a bizzie in California and failed? It's unfortunate you tried just before the 2007 freeze, but honestly, if the large specimens survive further south, there's no reason yours wouldn't have succeeded if it was nurtured to larger size.

I've got a spot for it where it's hot, super well drained, and frost protected. I'll give it some extra iron and aluminum since it seems to be accustomed to that in its native habitat.

Axel, Mine cruised through 2007 when it experienced 26F with not a single sign of stress. Queen palms nearby showed lots of bronzed leaflets. It's important that you purchase a CA grown specimen though. The FL ones have small root balls in comparison to their top growth and CA grown have large root balls with smaller top growth, giving them a better chance of establishing. Every FL grown Bismarck I've tried (3) eventually failed. The one I'm growing was Southern CA grown and has done well even opening an occasional frond in the middle of winter.

Thanks. Jim. I will haul a Socal field grown one back up during my palm run next weekend.

BTW, how's your Roystonia Borinquena holding up?

I think that perhaps a big reason that they are not often planted in California, is gophers...........

I'm starting to see a few impressive specimens popping up around Melbourne. There are a couple in private gardens near my house that have grown rapidly over the last couple of years, particularly during this long, hot growing season we are having. The botanic gardens planted a couple about 2 years ago, I'll have to get back there soon to see how they are doing.

This one is the only public planting I know of outside the botanic gardens (and a couple of struggling seedlings at the University of Melbourne). It is placed next to a north east facing wall on the bank of Melbourne's Yarra river just south of the heart of the city. The photo was taken a year ago, I'd imagine it has grown quite a bit since then.

I agree with most on here, Bizzies seem to be underplanted in cooler climates. I think the key in cooler areas is to get a good sized specimen, they speed up considerably once past the seedling stage.

Hi Axel,

Was I that discouraging? I did not say you can not grow a Bismarkia, just that you need a perfect spot and it probably won't be all that impressive. I wish you all the success as I'm a big zone pusher myself and I enjoy discovering "impossibles" in the Bay Area like the Ice Cream Bean tree in your garden and Ficus damaropsis in Downtown Santa Cruz. Personally I think you should try Dypsis marojejyi, psammophila, Orange Crush, saintlucei, Licuala peltata Sumawongii, etc. etc.

In terms of the ultimate blue palm, those Copernicia hospita at Nong Nooch sure look even more impressive/refined than Bismarkia, and it supposedly has a bit cold hardiness also.

Daxin, you and a host of other people have discouraged me from growing a bizzie. Luen talked me out of it three years ago saying it's too frost tender. I want to grow one because they look spectacular. You saying it won't look spectacular isn't exactly a glowing endorsement, it's discouraging to say the least. You classify it along with the "impossibles" which is exactly what everyone says and it's why this palm isn't grown in Norcal.

You may be right, but it makes no sense based on the fact that growers in frostier places than Norcal say it's hardier than a queen palm. In fact a couple of people argued with me on the hardy sub-forum because I told them the common wisdom in California is that they are too frost tender. This year, I am going to include it in my "coin flips".

I have my insurance policy silver palms anyway: brahea clara, brahea armata (I have four of these and one is in full sun and is bright silver), and sabal uresana.

What I'd like to know is how many people have actually tried to grow a bizzie in California and failed? It's unfortunate you tried just before the 2007 freeze, but honestly, if the large specimens survive further south, there's no reason yours wouldn't have succeeded if it was nurtured to larger size.

I've got a spot for it where it's hot, super well drained, and frost protected. I'll give it some extra iron and aluminum since it seems to be accustomed to that in its native habitat.

I think it is good to understand that sometimes we plant some palms at the wrong time. A palm that doesnt have its roots established will be more cold sensitive. If a 20 year cold kills a palm that was just installed, it doesn't mean that an established palm is not hardy, just one that is not established is not hardy. Ive seen this happen, cold winter 1st year after planting is a bit of a jinx. Royals are all over near my place in florida, many went through the 2010 cold/frost with moderate damage, but the 15 gallon sizes and smaller were mostly killed. And yet big royals all over today... Something to think about in growing your garden, some things might deserve a repeat with a better chance to establish.

There are two quite blue palms in front of a strip mall along the east-bound side of I-80 in Vallejo. You can see them as you drive past on I-80. They are not impressive, but they have been there for years. Maybe they are Brahea armata, but I thought the leaf shape looked Bizzie.

The Vallejo palms are Brahea armata.

One location I wish had Bismarkia is the performing arts building in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. When I visited several years ago there were two struggling, and pathetic Syagrus romanzoffianum palms flanking the entrance.

How Funny, I thought I was the only one who noticed those Brahea Armata palms. They've been there as long as I can remember! They're really pretty. Definitely different than Canaries or Mexican Fan palms that are everywhere here in Vallejo!

There are two quite blue palms in front of a strip mall along the east-bound side of I-80 in Vallejo. You can see them as you drive past on I-80. They are not impressive, but they have been there for years. Maybe they are Brahea armata, but I thought the leaf shape looked Bizzie.

>The Vallejo palms are Brahea armata.

One location I wish had Bismarkia is the performing arts building in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. When I visited several years ago there were two struggling, and pathetic Syagrus romanzoffianum palms flanking the entrance.

How Funny, I thought I was the only one who noticed those Brahea Armata palms. They've been there as long as I can remember! They're really pretty. Definitely different than Canaries or Mexican Fan palms that are everywhere here in Vallejo!

Dan, I have three brahea armatas, the one in full sun that bakes in 80-100F afternoon heat during the Summer has so much wax it literally glows like neon. The other ones only get sun part of the day and aren't as bright. It's an awesome palm! It doesn't mind our wild daily temperature swing. When I went to Costa Rica, our hotel pool had an enormous bismarck palm, when i got home, I wanted one and Luen talked me into getting brahea armata instead, saying bismarks are not feasible in Norcal. However, b. armata just doesn't have the dramatic "wing span" of the bismark.

Thanks. Jim. I will haul a Socal field grown one back up during my palm run next weekend.

BTW, how's your Roystonia Borinquena holding up?

Dead...I may try R. princeps. Otherwise I think I'm through with royals. The borinquena blew me away at its winter hardiness and continued growth through cool times but it suddenly collapsed March of 2012 after growing well for seven years.

Jim, gophers? Phytophtera? Or did it really die because it was too cold?

There are two quite blue palms in front of a strip mall along the east-bound side of I-80 in Vallejo. You can see them as you drive past on I-80. They are not impressive, but they have been there for years. Maybe they are Brahea armata, but I thought the leaf shape looked Bizzie.

>The Vallejo palms are Brahea armata.

One location I wish had Bismarkia is the performing arts building in downtown Phoenix, Arizona. When I visited several years ago there were two struggling, and pathetic Syagrus romanzoffianum palms flanking the entrance.

How Funny, I thought I was the only one who noticed those Brahea Armata palms. They've been there as long as I can remember! They're really pretty. Definitely different than Canaries or Mexican Fan palms that are everywhere here in Vallejo!

Dan, I have three brahea armatas, the one in full sun that bakes in 80-100F afternoon heat during the Summer has so much wax it literally glows like neon. The other ones only get sun part of the day and aren't as bright. It's an awesome palm! It doesn't mind our wild daily temperature swing. When I went to Costa Rica, our hotel pool had an enormous bismarck palm, when i got home, I wanted one and Luen talked me into getting brahea armata instead, saying bismarks are not feasible in Norcal. However, b. armata just doesn't have the dramatic "wing span" of the bismark.

Here are the "Vallejo Brahea" They're very beautiful. more so up close.

Axel I am sure yours are great! These ones are not far from I-80 I think they must get a lot of road heat and they're also surrounded by pavement. Not sure if they every get any shade.

Took these today while running errands

Oh and Axel, Brahea Armata are beautiful. But they aren't as attention grabbing as a Bismarck! I am glad you're trying Bismarck. When someone says something can't be done, I say try and it and see for yourself.. There has been a lot of stuff that I've been told wouldn't grow here but a lot of it has grown so far.

I have a Bizmarckia I planted here in West Covina about 7 years ago.

Edited March 29, 201313 yr by jtinla

The Bismarckia is completely out of scale with the front yard especially next to the King palms.

The bismarck is making your king palms look like under-story chamadorea. Now that's a magnificent beauty!

599279_4017651487235_1119201834_n1.jpg431154_3339491933670_1725721345_n1.jpg

The Bismarckia is completely out of scale with the front yard especially next to the King palms.

63954_10200458810540363_332221186_n1 (2).jpgI have a Bizmarckia I planted here in West Covina about 7 years ago.

Whoo-ee! You sure do!

I had no idea the palm would grow here. The first time I noticed Bismarkia's was in Singapore in 2005 and I thought they were tropicals. I found one lonely 5 gallon plant at Armstrong Nursery in nearby Diamond Bar and paid close to $100. Have'nt regretted it although it is too massive for a residential planting. We had a major freeze period about 4 years ago and my plumeria's and some hibiscus perished but the bismarkia just plowed through along with the Kings.

There are a few Bismarkias sprinkled around town. At this point, some of them are trunking. The ones labeled "Silver Select" perform better than most of the queens tucked in local yards. They want 100% sun and are fast growing. I have yet to see one defoliate here, even during the 2010 winter they looked shockingly good. Just kicked off the lower fronds...

I remember posting this thread because I was puzzled by the lack of bismarckia in California even though the bloody things are clearly much, much more hardy than 28F. Today I dropped off a palm load in Gilroy, and the fellow had a 5 gallon bismarckia sitting in his front yard that spent the entire Winter there with open sky to the south and a little queen palm canopy. His low was 20F last Winter. Adjusting for damage I see on his palms, more likely he got to 22-24F. Anyone who's familiar with Gilroy knows the climate there and how cold it can get.

Here's a picture of this little thing, apparently someone forgot to tell it that it was supposed to die in that sort of cold. I see some minor tip damage on the older fronds, but not bad for 22F. You can't tell from the photo, which was taken with a flash, but the thing is rather purple in color.

I've done some investigation with some folks who have failed with bismarkia, it appears that poor Winter drainage is a much bigger issue in Norcal thanks to a longer, more pronounced wet season.

Axel, I have planted Bismarkia 5 times in Santa Rosa, and I've composted each one...

They don't die, but they sure look like hell come spring.

Here's a better question...why in an ideal climate like Bali, which is where I happen to be, are there no Bismarkias! Oh wait, I know of one...at the bird park...one measly Bimarkia in palm tree paradise...

^{I have a dozen in 5g that I did from seed in central CA. They do fine outside under the trees with little to no damage. I may have these acclimated to our weather by the time there ready to plant. I know of one large one in town that planted from a 24-36" box and im told its still there after several years. Another nursery man told me you cant grow them here, Hes bought some in and they always die after a year or 2 sitting at his nursery. I believe a lot of it has to do with bringing them in from socal or florida maybe. I wouldn't start growing a lot here, but I got the few to see what happens.}

Axel, I have planted Bismarkia 5 times in Santa Rosa, and I've composted each one...

They don't die, but they sure look like hell come spring.

Sorry to hear about the failures. Is it really frost that's nailing your bismarkia, or is it a drainage issue? They don't like wet feet in the Winter, and they don't like dry feet in the Summer. Santa Rosa gets a lot of rain and is really at the farthest Northern boundary even for queen palms. Bismarckia are good down to about 22F, especially if they have a little overhead protection during freezes. But they need to stay dry in the Winter. I will be tarping the soil around mine this Winter to keep as much of the soil dry as possible.

^{I have a dozen in 5g that I did from seed in central CA. They do fine outside under the trees with little to no damage. I may have these acclimated to our weather by the time there ready to plant. I know of one large one in town that planted from a 24-36" box and im told its still there after several years. Another nursery man told me you cant grow them here, Hes bought some in and they always die after a year or 2 sitting at his nursery. I believe a lot of it has to do with bringing them in from socal or florida maybe. I wouldn't start growing a lot here, but I got the few to see what happens.}

Florida ones tend to croak when brought into Northern California, that's what I've heard. Most if not all tropicals coming from Florida are worthless growing in California unless properly acclimated. I've never managed to keep anything alive that I've gotten from Florida. That goes for tropical fruit as well as palms. Southern California is another story, though. Len told me about all the palms he brought back from Florida, of which a very small number survived.

Went palm buying the other day and I found this house with big Bizzzies

http--,,--//

Here's a better question...why in an ideal climate like Bali, which is where I happen to be, are there no Bismarkias! Oh wait, I know of one...at the bird park...one measly Bimarkia in palm tree paradise...

there are a few around. there are some big ones at the galleria in Denpasar.

how is the trip going,btw?

Sorry to hear about the failures. Is it really frost that's nailing your bismarkia, or is it a drainage issue? They don't like wet feet in the Winter, and they don't like dry feet in the Summer. Santa Rosa gets a lot of rain and is really at the farthest Northern boundary even for queen palms. Bismarckia are good down to about 22F, especially if they have a little overhead protection during freezes. But they need to stay dry in the Winter. I will be tarping the soil around mine this Winter to keep as much of the soil dry as possible.

Agreed Axel, I'm sure it is the winter moisture. I've thought about tarping the soil, and may give it one last attempt before I plant something else there. I know the Bismarkia will survive, but I am concerned with how it will look over time. I prefer to see if a palm can survive here with the least amount of human interaction possible as I believe in the survival of the fittest...at some point I may just need to move to where my favorite palms will grow (-;

63954_10200458810540363_332221186_n1 (2).jpgI have a Bizmarckia I planted here in West Covina about 7 years ago.

Absolutely gorgeous, i'm planning on putting one in a hot corner and will be the centerpiece to the backyard, will also provide the canopy I need

Sorry to hear about the failures. Is it really frost that's nailing your bismarkia, or is it a drainage issue? They don't like wet feet in the Winter, and they don't like dry feet in the Summer. Santa Rosa gets a lot of rain and is really at the farthest Northern boundary even for queen palms. Bismarckia are good down to about 22F, especially if they have a little overhead protection during freezes. But they need to stay dry in the Winter. I will be tarping the soil around mine this Winter to keep as much of the soil dry as possible.

Agreed Axel, I'm sure it is the winter moisture. I've thought about tarping the soil, and may give it one last attempt before I plant something else there. I know the Bismarkia will survive, but I am concerned with how it will look over time. I prefer to see if a palm can survive here with the least amount of human interaction possible as I believe in the survival of the fittest...at some point I may just need to move to where my favorite palms will grow (-;

i'm with you 100% on that. although i don't have much experience with trial and error I've done so much reading the last couple of months while beginning the entire project i'm starting to get a good understanding of what will grow in my space and what won't without a good amount of help.

Here's how I addressed the lack of bismarckia planting in my neighborhood. I also believe in the survival of the fittest, so I planted more than one, different sizes, different locations, different soils, different exposures.

First the giant in the hottest part of the garden close to our deck in blazing full scorching all day sun. 30 inch box, must be a "super silver" because it's as silver and blue as can be. it's real eye candy. Came from Palm Valley Ranch, exposed to 24F last Winter in Fallbrook along the I-15 corridor, has very minor tip damage on older leaves only.

Then there's a red one, planted on the hill, Morning shade and blazing afternoon sun from 11 onwards, super fast draining soil. It has a growing line on it, and it's clearly growing at a decent clip. Came from Joe, exposed to 27F in San Marcos, the red looks like it came from the cold exposure, because I see the leaves exposed to the ground are blue.

The one in the pot below ended up in a spot that is only full sun from about 2PM onwards, it's growing much, much slower, not sure why because it only gets about one hour less of sun per day. It was pushing out of the pot pretty bad so it could be adjusting to the planting first. Exposed to 27F in San Marcos, has some tip damage.

And here are a couple of 5g, they're almost green but with reds and purple too. These are the survivors from an entire field of 5g bismarkia that got fried to a crisp in inland Southern California last Winter around 24F. I cherry picked the ones that had zero damage but were still fully exposed. Ironically, these smaller greenish seedlings are screaming along much, much faster than any of the other bismarckia so far. They get almost full day sun.

And finally, last but not least, this 15g has a slightly different form yet and is growing in full blazing sun as well. This one is getting a plastic chamber built around it to accelerate growth. Exposed to 24F in Fallbrook, no damage whatsoever.

Based on all of these plantings, I can attest to the fact that full sun specimens far outpace the ones that get even slight shade.

Bottom line: these bismarckia come from many different sources, all field grown in Southern California, fully freeze exposed last Winter, lots of different seed batches, and have very distinct coloring and forms. They are planted in different soils, different microclimates, and different exposures. Now it's time to just watch and take notes. I hope some of them decide to hang around for the long haul. Outside of a heat chamber for one of them, they will only get soil tarping in the Winter, not to exclude all moisture, but to keep the areas around the trunk completely dry through the Winter.

My Bizzy is going to dominate the small yard i have

2 quick questions, how wide is the trunk on average (diameter) and what kind of spread should I expect for the fronds?

I want to put it so it'll be one of the main sources of canopy but don't want it going well over the fence intothe nneighbor's yard

Today I was able to take a few pictures of a Bizzy growing in the Santa Barbara area (Goleta). It is growing at a high school and I doubt that it receives or has ever received any special care.

Bizzy1 by hellos1011, on Flickr

Bizzy by hellos1011, on Flickr

This is what I discovered upon a closer inspection:

Bizzy Inflorescence by hellos1011, on Flickr

Dylan

Today I was able to take a few pictures of a Bizzy growing in the Santa Barbara area (Goleta). It is growing at a high school and I doubt that it receives or has ever received any special care.

Bizzy1 by hellos1011, on Flickr

Bizzy by hellos1011, on Flickr

This is what I discovered upon a closer inspection:

Bizzy Inflorescence by hellos1011, on Flickr

Dylan

This is why I think Bizzies should should do ok in the Santa Cruz area.

Coastal Santa Barbara is chilly most of the year. This Bizzie is looking good.

I may even get one to try in my desert heat.

I think it would look good next to my Dypsis decipiens.

But I wont have much room left to grow anything else.

Jefff

I gave up on them here simply because they were setback so much every winter and took so long to recover that I couldn't give up the space needed for them. I do like em a lot- some that I saw in a mass planting (5 or 6?) in the Kahala area on Oahu a couple of years ago were tremendous. They just wouldn't look like that for me here.

Although Ive always felt bizzies are much more spectacular- we are fortunate to be in an excellent climate for Brahea armata here.

Today I was able to take a few pictures of a Bizzy growing in the Santa Barbara area (Goleta). It is growing at a high school and I doubt that it receives or has ever received any special care.

Bizzy1 by hellos1011, on Flickr

Bizzy by hellos1011, on Flickr

This is what I discovered upon a closer inspection:

Bizzy Inflorescence by hellos1011, on Flickr

Dylan

This is why I think Bizzies should should do ok in the Santa Cruz area.

Coastal Santa Barbara is chilly most of the year. This Bizzie is looking good.

I may even get one to try in my desert heat.

I think it would look good next to my Dypsis decipiens.

But I wont have much room left to grow anything else.

Jefff

This one is growing at Dos Pueblos High School which is literally 2 miles from the ocean as the crow flies with water temperatures in the upper 50's. It's definitely on the cool side. I got some official readings from the Goleta Airport, it's definitely on the chilly side, and very frosty in the Winter:

SB Airport in Goleta

J 63.9/40.1

F 64.5/42.9

M 65.5/44.9

A 67.5/47.3

M 69.2/50.2

J 71.5/53.4

J 74.0/56.8

A 75.0/57.3

S 75.0/55.6

O 72.6/50.8

N 69.2/44.1

D 64.9/40.2

Just to compare to Santa Cruz, which is quite a bit colder than my location (almost Scotts Valley), even the City of Santa Cruz is very close to Goleta readings. Winters are obviously slightly colder, mostly due to higher rainfall, but otherwise it's not much of a difference.

Santa Cruz (City)

J 60.8/40.1

F 62.6/42.0

M 64.5/43.2

A 68.0/44.4

M 70.7/47.2

J 73.7/50.3

J 74.5/52.5

A 75.1/53.0

S 75.3/51.9

O 72.2/48.1

N 62.9/41.9

D 60.7/39.5

I think the limiting factor in Norcal is the cold wet Winter. As you go North into the Bay area, the Winter high averages drop into the 55F range because of the fog outflow from the Sacramento Delta. Jim is successful in the bay area in Los Altos Hills without too much Winter setback, but he's above the inversion layer. My house is above the inversion layer in the Winter and we see warmer daytime and night time temps, my Winter averages are close to Goleta, around 62-65F, which gives me some hope. I've heard of successful bismarckias in the Fremont area as well. When you head into the Central Valley, the average highs in the Winter drop into the 48F range, which could be even more problematic. And hard frost below 32F is far more frequent.

But what I think is the biggest problem for bismarckia is boggy, wet soil in the Winter. I've now heard of several failures, and all were due to very high Winter water table levels. Richard in Santa Cruz carted in a 24" boxed bismarckia and lost it within 16 months. It just kept declining. Richard's garden has a seasonal "river" going through his backyard, water levels are literally at soil level during several weeks in the WInter. He didn't know bismarckia needed dry feet in the Winter and he didn't plant it on a mound.

The problem in the Central Valley is the hard pan - it's clay soil with low drainage, and gets boggy and wet in the Winter. Combine that with 24h/day temps within the 30-48F range, that's not going to promote healthy roots during the Winter. That may explain Glenn's less than ideal looking bismarckia at the end of Winter.

Jeff, get a parajubaea sunkha, better size and hardiness for your front yard. I have an extra one here you might need to convince me to part with.

Today I was able to take a few pictures of a Bizzy growing in the Santa Barbara area (Goleta). It is growing at a high school and I doubt that it receives or has ever received any special care.

Bizzy1 by hellos1011, on Flickr

Bizzy by hellos1011, on Flickr

This is what I discovered upon a closer inspection:

Bizzy Inflorescence by hellos1011, on Flickr

Dylan

This is why I think Bizzies should should do ok in the Santa Cruz area.

Coastal Santa Barbara is chilly most of the year. This Bizzie is looking good.

I may even get one to try in my desert heat.

I think it would look good next to my Dypsis decipiens.

But I wont have much room left to grow anything else.

Jefff

This one is growing at Dos Pueblos High School which is literally 2 miles from the ocean as the crow flies with water temperatures in the upper 50's. It's definitely on the cool side. I got some official readings from the Goleta Airport, it's definitely on the chilly side, and very frosty in the Winter:

SB Airport in Goleta

J 63.9/40.1

F 64.5/42.9

M 65.5/44.9

A 67.5/47.3

M 69.2/50.2

J 71.5/53.4

J 74.0/56.8

A 75.0/57.3

S 75.0/55.6

O 72.6/50.8

N 69.2/44.1

D 64.9/40.2

Just to compare to Santa Cruz, which is quite a bit colder than my location (almost Scotts Valley), even the City of Santa Cruz is very close to Goleta readings. Winters are obviously slightly colder, mostly due to higher rainfall, but otherwise it's not much of a difference.

Santa Cruz (City)

J 60.8/40.1

F 62.6/42.0

M 64.5/43.2

A 68.0/44.4

M 70.7/47.2

J 73.7/50.3

J 74.5/52.5

A 75.1/53.0

S 75.3/51.9

O 72.2/48.1

N 62.9/41.9

D 60.7/39.5

I think the limiting factor in Norcal is the cold wet Winter. As you go North into the Bay area, the Winter high averages drop into the 55F range because of the fog outflow from the Sacramento Delta. Jim is successful in the bay area in Los Altos Hills without too much Winter setback, but he's above the inversion layer. My house is above the inversion layer in the Winter and we see warmer daytime and night time temps, my Winter averages are close to Goleta, around 62-65F, which gives me some hope. I've heard of successful bismarckias in the Fremont area as well. When you head into the Central Valley, the average highs in the Winter drop into the 48F range, which could be even more problematic. And hard frost below 32F is far more frequent.

But what I think is the biggest problem for bismarckia is boggy, wet soil in the Winter. I've now heard of several failures, and all were due to very high Winter water table levels. Richard in Santa Cruz carted in a 24" boxed bismarckia and lost it within 16 months. It just kept declining. Richard's garden has a seasonal "river" going through his backyard, water levels are literally at soil level during several weeks in the WInter. He didn't know bismarckia needed dry feet in the Winter and he didn't plant it on a mound.

The problem in the Central Valley is the hard pan - it's clay soil with low drainage, and gets boggy and wet in the Winter. Combine that with 24h/day temps within the 30-48F range, that's not going to promote healthy roots during the Winter. That may explain Glenn's less than ideal looking bismarckia at the end of Winter.

Jeff, get a parajubaea sunkha, better size and hardiness for your front yard. I have an extra one here you might need to convince me to part with.

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

those bismarckias look pretty manageable, gives me some hope in that it doesn't completely swallow my yard and will give me a decent canopy

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

Are the lower areas still zone 16? I thought zone 16 were the hills above zone 15. Most of the stations that match my highs and lows in Los Altos Hills are at around 500-600 feet elevation, same as my elevation. You are only at 190 feet, that would be much warmer during the day because of less ocean breeze, just barely into zone 16. Seems you can grow all sorts of things, so you must be getting some frost drainage.

Yes, the low lying areas of Scotts Valley are super frosty and cold, it's a definite frost pit. Every Winter you can count on temps getting at least to 27F and maybe even 24-25F on real cold years. It's a true zone 9b in the sense that the coldest yearly low when averaged comes out to about 27F. When I drive to work in the Winter the car road ice alarm comes on occasionally when I drive down 17 through Scotts Valley. it's hot in the Summer, though, 80's and low 90's on a regular basis.

I lived on one of the hills further inland above Scotts Valley for about a year, there was still frost, but a lot less frequent, and there was about 5-10F difference with the valley floor. Above 800 feet and below 1200 feet it's actually a USDA 10b climate, as mild as parts of San Diego However, I did see snow flakes one night, but they didn't stick to the ground. What was even more striking were the Summer lows - during heat waves when the marine inversion drops below 500 feet, the temperature wouldn't drop below 70F at night, not very comfortable sleeping weather. Here in the hills closer to the ocean it's a little cooler at night in the Summer, hopefully not too cool for the bismarckia.

Today I was able to take a few pictures of a Bizzy growing in the Santa Barbara area (Goleta). It is growing at a high school and I doubt that it receives or has ever received any special care.

Bizzy1 by hellos1011, on Flickr

Bizzy by hellos1011, on Flickr

This is what I discovered upon a closer inspection:

Bizzy Inflorescence by hellos1011, on Flickr

Dylan

This is why I think Bizzies should should do ok in the Santa Cruz area.

Coastal Santa Barbara is chilly most of the year. This Bizzie is looking good.

I may even get one to try in my desert heat.

I think it would look good next to my Dypsis decipiens.

But I wont have much room left to grow anything else.

Jefff

This one is growing at Dos Pueblos High School which is literally 2 miles from the ocean as the crow flies with water temperatures in the upper 50's. It's definitely on the cool side. I got some official readings from the Goleta Airport, it's definitely on the chilly side, and very frosty in the Winter:

SB Airport in Goleta

J 63.9/40.1

F 64.5/42.9

M 65.5/44.9

A 67.5/47.3

M 69.2/50.2

J 71.5/53.4

J 74.0/56.8

A 75.0/57.3

S 75.0/55.6

O 72.6/50.8

N 69.2/44.1

D 64.9/40.2

Just to compare to Santa Cruz, which is quite a bit colder than my location (almost Scotts Valley), even the City of Santa Cruz is very close to Goleta readings. Winters are obviously slightly colder, mostly due to higher rainfall, but otherwise it's not much of a difference.

Santa Cruz (City)

J 60.8/40.1

F 62.6/42.0

M 64.5/43.2

A 68.0/44.4

M 70.7/47.2

J 73.7/50.3

J 74.5/52.5

A 75.1/53.0

S 75.3/51.9

O 72.2/48.1

N 62.9/41.9

D 60.7/39.5

I think the limiting factor in Norcal is the cold wet Winter. As you go North into the Bay area, the Winter high averages drop into the 55F range because of the fog outflow from the Sacramento Delta. Jim is successful in the bay area in Los Altos Hills without too much Winter setback, but he's above the inversion layer. My house is above the inversion layer in the Winter and we see warmer daytime and night time temps, my Winter averages are close to Goleta, around 62-65F, which gives me some hope. I've heard of successful bismarckias in the Fremont area as well. When you head into the Central Valley, the average highs in the Winter drop into the 48F range, which could be even more problematic. And hard frost below 32F is far more frequent.

But what I think is the biggest problem for bismarckia is boggy, wet soil in the Winter. I've now heard of several failures, and all were due to very high Winter water table levels. Richard in Santa Cruz carted in a 24" boxed bismarckia and lost it within 16 months. It just kept declining. Richard's garden has a seasonal "river" going through his backyard, water levels are literally at soil level during several weeks in the WInter. He didn't know bismarckia needed dry feet in the Winter and he didn't plant it on a mound.

The problem in the Central Valley is the hard pan - it's clay soil with low drainage, and gets boggy and wet in the Winter. Combine that with 24h/day temps within the 30-48F range, that's not going to promote healthy roots during the Winter. That may explain Glenn's less than ideal looking bismarckia at the end of Winter.

Jeff, get a parajubaea sunkha, better size and hardiness for your front yard. I have an extra one here you might need to convince me to part with.

I think the weather averages for this Bizzy's location are going to be a bit warmer than those listed in the averages for Goleta. Those Goleta averages are taken closer to the ocean. This location is closer to the foothills as well as the palm being planted near asphalt.

With my 1 Bizzy seedling and The two Dypsis decipiens seedlings I had I would rate Bizzy as tougher for the the winters. My DD seedlings suffered 50-75% defoliation while the Bizzy seedling only had minor damage being about the same size with their pots touching each other. The DD seedling that suffered 75% defoliation never recovered and I lost it the following winter.