Why are there almost no Bismark plantings in California

[Jim in Los Altos]

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

Are the lower areas still zone 16? I thought zone 16 were the hills above zone 15. Most of the stations that match my highs and lows in Los Altos Hills are at around 500-600 feet elevation, same as my elevation. You are only at 190 feet, that would be much warmer during the day because of less ocean breeze, just barely into zone 16. Seems you can grow all sorts of things, so you must be getting some frost drainage.

Yes, the low lying areas of Scotts Valley are super frosty and cold, it's a definite frost pit. Every Winter you can count on temps getting at least to 27F and maybe even 24-25F on real cold years. It's a true zone 9b in the sense that the coldest yearly low when averaged comes out to about 27F. When I drive to work in the Winter the car road ice alarm comes on occasionally when I drive down 17 through Scotts Valley. it's hot in the Summer, though, 80's and low 90's on a regular basis.

I lived on one of the hills further inland above Scotts Valley for about a year, there was still frost, but a lot less frequent, and there was about 5-10F difference with the valley floor. Above 800 feet and below 1200 feet it's actually a USDA 10b climate, as mild as parts of San Diego However, I did see snow flakes one night, but they didn't stick to the ground. What was even more striking were the Summer lows - during heat waves when the marine inversion drops below 500 feet, the temperature wouldn't drop below 70F at night, not very comfortable sleeping weather. Here in the hills closer to the ocean it's a little cooler at night in the Summer, hopefully not too cool for the bismarckia.

Axel, Zone 16 extends east from the foothills into the lower elevation slim thermal belt where I am located near the border of Los Altos Hills and Los Altos. My typical yearly low is just barely above 32F and frost is light and occasional. December/January high/low average is 60F/40F and July/August is 80F/59F. I'm eating papayas grown in my yard and my young mango has set fruit this year for the first time. My bananas and heliconia receive superficial leaf tip damage most winters. Winter 2007 we experienced a low of 26F, the lowest since the nasty 1990 freeze.

[empireo22]

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

Are the lower areas still zone 16? I thought zone 16 were the hills above zone 15. Most of the stations that match my highs and lows in Los Altos Hills are at around 500-600 feet elevation, same as my elevation. You are only at 190 feet, that would be much warmer during the day because of less ocean breeze, just barely into zone 16. Seems you can grow all sorts of things, so you must be getting some frost drainage.

Yes, the low lying areas of Scotts Valley are super frosty and cold, it's a definite frost pit. Every Winter you can count on temps getting at least to 27F and maybe even 24-25F on real cold years. It's a true zone 9b in the sense that the coldest yearly low when averaged comes out to about 27F. When I drive to work in the Winter the car road ice alarm comes on occasionally when I drive down 17 through Scotts Valley. it's hot in the Summer, though, 80's and low 90's on a regular basis.

I lived on one of the hills further inland above Scotts Valley for about a year, there was still frost, but a lot less frequent, and there was about 5-10F difference with the valley floor. Above 800 feet and below 1200 feet it's actually a USDA 10b climate, as mild as parts of San Diego However, I did see snow flakes one night, but they didn't stick to the ground. What was even more striking were the Summer lows - during heat waves when the marine inversion drops below 500 feet, the temperature wouldn't drop below 70F at night, not very comfortable sleeping weather. Here in the hills closer to the ocean it's a little cooler at night in the Summer, hopefully not too cool for the bismarckia.

Axel, Zone 16 extends east from the foothills into the lower elevation slim thermal belt where I am located near the border of Los Altos Hills and Los Altos. My typical yearly low is just barely above 32F and frost is light and occasional. December/January high/low average is 60F/40F and July/August is 80F/59F. I'm eating papayas grown in my yard and my young mango has set fruit this year for the first time. My bananas and heliconia receive superficial leaf tip damage most winters. Winter 2007 we experienced a low of 26F, the lowest since the nasty 1990 freeze.

Jim have you ever tried Carambola (star fruit) or pineapple?

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

Are the lower areas still zone 16? I thought zone 16 were the hills above zone 15. Most of the stations that match my highs and lows in Los Altos Hills are at around 500-600 feet elevation, same as my elevation. You are only at 190 feet, that would be much warmer during the day because of less ocean breeze, just barely into zone 16. Seems you can grow all sorts of things, so you must be getting some frost drainage.

Yes, the low lying areas of Scotts Valley are super frosty and cold, it's a definite frost pit. Every Winter you can count on temps getting at least to 27F and maybe even 24-25F on real cold years. It's a true zone 9b in the sense that the coldest yearly low when averaged comes out to about 27F. When I drive to work in the Winter the car road ice alarm comes on occasionally when I drive down 17 through Scotts Valley. it's hot in the Summer, though, 80's and low 90's on a regular basis.

I lived on one of the hills further inland above Scotts Valley for about a year, there was still frost, but a lot less frequent, and there was about 5-10F difference with the valley floor. Above 800 feet and below 1200 feet it's actually a USDA 10b climate, as mild as parts of San Diego However, I did see snow flakes one night, but they didn't stick to the ground. What was even more striking were the Summer lows - during heat waves when the marine inversion drops below 500 feet, the temperature wouldn't drop below 70F at night, not very comfortable sleeping weather. Here in the hills closer to the ocean it's a little cooler at night in the Summer, hopefully not too cool for the bismarckia.

Axel, Zone 16 extends east from the foothills into the lower elevation slim thermal belt where I am located near the border of Los Altos Hills and Los Altos. My typical yearly low is just barely above 32F and frost is light and occasional. December/January high/low average is 60F/40F and July/August is 80F/59F. I'm eating papayas grown in my yard and my young mango has set fruit this year for the first time. My bananas and heliconia receive superficial leaf tip damage most winters. Winter 2007 we experienced a low of 26F, the lowest since the nasty 1990 freeze.

Jim, you get way more heat than I do, and your lows are considerably higher in the Summer. 59F average Summer low is almost as warm as Vista, (Vista low is 62F) and as warm as Modesto, quite unusual for the Bay area, so you're in a special spot. Most of the surrounding cities around you have average lows maximum 54F or lower. That would explain your success with your roystonea. No chance of it succeeding here. I can grow Mountain papayas, but not solo papayas.

[JEFF IN MODESTO]

Today I was able to take a few pictures of a Bizzy growing in the Santa Barbara area (Goleta). It is growing at a high school and I doubt that it receives or has ever received any special care.

Bizzy1 by hellos1011, on Flickr

Bizzy by hellos1011, on Flickr

This is what I discovered upon a closer inspection:

Bizzy Inflorescence by hellos1011, on Flickr

Dylan

This is why I think Bizzies should should do ok in the Santa Cruz area.

Coastal Santa Barbara is chilly most of the year. This Bizzie is looking good.

I may even get one to try in my desert heat.

I think it would look good next to my Dypsis decipiens.

But I wont have much room left to grow anything else.

Jefff

This one is growing at Dos Pueblos High School which is literally 2 miles from the ocean as the crow flies with water temperatures in the upper 50's. It's definitely on the cool side. I got some official readings from the Goleta Airport, it's definitely on the chilly side, and very frosty in the Winter:

SB Airport in Goleta

J 63.9/40.1

F 64.5/42.9

M 65.5/44.9

A 67.5/47.3

M 69.2/50.2

J 71.5/53.4

J 74.0/56.8

A 75.0/57.3

S 75.0/55.6

O 72.6/50.8

N 69.2/44.1

D 64.9/40.2

Just to compare to Santa Cruz, which is quite a bit colder than my location (almost Scotts Valley), even the City of Santa Cruz is very close to Goleta readings. Winters are obviously slightly colder, mostly due to higher rainfall, but otherwise it's not much of a difference.

Santa Cruz (City)

J 60.8/40.1

F 62.6/42.0

M 64.5/43.2

A 68.0/44.4

M 70.7/47.2

J 73.7/50.3

J 74.5/52.5

A 75.1/53.0

S 75.3/51.9

O 72.2/48.1

N 62.9/41.9

D 60.7/39.5

I think the limiting factor in Norcal is the cold wet Winter. As you go North into the Bay area, the Winter high averages drop into the 55F range because of the fog outflow from the Sacramento Delta. Jim is successful in the bay area in Los Altos Hills without too much Winter setback, but he's above the inversion layer. My house is above the inversion layer in the Winter and we see warmer daytime and night time temps, my Winter averages are close to Goleta, around 62-65F, which gives me some hope. I've heard of successful bismarckias in the Fremont area as well. When you head into the Central Valley, the average highs in the Winter drop into the 48F range, which could be even more problematic. And hard frost below 32F is far more frequent.

But what I think is the biggest problem for bismarckia is boggy, wet soil in the Winter. I've now heard of several failures, and all were due to very high Winter water table levels. Richard in Santa Cruz carted in a 24" boxed bismarckia and lost it within 16 months. It just kept declining. Richard's garden has a seasonal "river" going through his backyard, water levels are literally at soil level during several weeks in the WInter. He didn't know bismarckia needed dry feet in the Winter and he didn't plant it on a mound.

The problem in the Central Valley is the hard pan - it's clay soil with low drainage, and gets boggy and wet in the Winter. Combine that with 24h/day temps within the 30-48F range, that's not going to promote healthy roots during the Winter. That may explain Glenn's less than ideal looking bismarckia at the end of Winter.

Jeff, get a parajubaea sunkha, better size and hardiness for your front yard. I have an extra one here you might need to convince me to part with.

Axel, Nahhh , I think Im done with Parajubea.

They are a Cloudforest palm... Except for Dec/Jan, San Joaquin Valley weather is far from cloudforest weather.

My cocoides gets about the same about of freeze damage as your big one up by the street. One year it was worse. They seem to be slow to recover as they don't seem to like our hot summers.

Perhaps Bismarkia might get the same winter damage here, but the heat starting in March through Oct. here should be perfect for recovery... if its large enough to begin with.

I'd like to start out with one the size you just put in... that thing is SWEET!

[Jim in Los Altos]

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

Are the lower areas still zone 16? I thought zone 16 were the hills above zone 15. Most of the stations that match my highs and lows in Los Altos Hills are at around 500-600 feet elevation, same as my elevation. You are only at 190 feet, that would be much warmer during the day because of less ocean breeze, just barely into zone 16. Seems you can grow all sorts of things, so you must be getting some frost drainage.

Yes, the low lying areas of Scotts Valley are super frosty and cold, it's a definite frost pit. Every Winter you can count on temps getting at least to 27F and maybe even 24-25F on real cold years. It's a true zone 9b in the sense that the coldest yearly low when averaged comes out to about 27F. When I drive to work in the Winter the car road ice alarm comes on occasionally when I drive down 17 through Scotts Valley. it's hot in the Summer, though, 80's and low 90's on a regular basis.

I lived on one of the hills further inland above Scotts Valley for about a year, there was still frost, but a lot less frequent, and there was about 5-10F difference with the valley floor. Above 800 feet and below 1200 feet it's actually a USDA 10b climate, as mild as parts of San Diego However, I did see snow flakes one night, but they didn't stick to the ground. What was even more striking were the Summer lows - during heat waves when the marine inversion drops below 500 feet, the temperature wouldn't drop below 70F at night, not very comfortable sleeping weather. Here in the hills closer to the ocean it's a little cooler at night in the Summer, hopefully not too cool for the bismarckia.

Axel, Zone 16 extends east from the foothills into the lower elevation slim thermal belt where I am located near the border of Los Altos Hills and Los Altos. My typical yearly low is just barely above 32F and frost is light and occasional. December/January high/low average is 60F/40F and July/August is 80F/59F. I'm eating papayas grown in my yard and my young mango has set fruit this year for the first time. My bananas and heliconia receive superficial leaf tip damage most winters. Winter 2007 we experienced a low of 26F, the lowest since the nasty 1990 freeze.

Jim, you get way more heat than I do, and your lows are considerably higher in the Summer. 59F average Summer low is almost as warm as Vista, (Vista low is 62F) and as warm as Modesto, quite unusual for the Bay area, so you're in a special spot. Most of the surrounding cities around you have average lows maximum 54F or lower. That would explain your success with your roystonea. No chance of it succeeding here. I can grow Mountain papayas, but not solo papayas.

Axel, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, west San Jose, and Los Gatos have similar temperature ranges with Los Gatos being hotter in the summer (July, 85F/55F) and the others right around 59F/39F Dec./Jan. and 79F/ 58F July. Los Altos Hills is 60F/40F in Dec./Jan. like me and 81F/60F for July, within a degree of my high lows. I have clients in Los Altos Hills that never see frost ever and it's obvious to my eye when their exposed bananas, ginger, and canna lilies are solid green by the end of every winter. I wish I could say that about my yard but I can't really complain.

[Mauna Kea Cloudforest]

Axel, I'm in the lowlands of Los Altos way below the inversion layer, not the hills of Los Altos Hills. Although I'm not at the lowest elevation, I am at the base of some hills. My business partner lives in the valley of Scotts Valley and is WAY colder than I am. What saves me in the winter is the moderating effect of the nearby (5 miles north) SF Bay. You're fortunate to be in the hills above the inversion layer. My bismarck is doing well and has never had anything more than minor superficial winter damage in the seven years its been in the ground.

Are the lower areas still zone 16? I thought zone 16 were the hills above zone 15. Most of the stations that match my highs and lows in Los Altos Hills are at around 500-600 feet elevation, same as my elevation. You are only at 190 feet, that would be much warmer during the day because of less ocean breeze, just barely into zone 16. Seems you can grow all sorts of things, so you must be getting some frost drainage.

Yes, the low lying areas of Scotts Valley are super frosty and cold, it's a definite frost pit. Every Winter you can count on temps getting at least to 27F and maybe even 24-25F on real cold years. It's a true zone 9b in the sense that the coldest yearly low when averaged comes out to about 27F. When I drive to work in the Winter the car road ice alarm comes on occasionally when I drive down 17 through Scotts Valley. it's hot in the Summer, though, 80's and low 90's on a regular basis.

I lived on one of the hills further inland above Scotts Valley for about a year, there was still frost, but a lot less frequent, and there was about 5-10F difference with the valley floor. Above 800 feet and below 1200 feet it's actually a USDA 10b climate, as mild as parts of San Diego However, I did see snow flakes one night, but they didn't stick to the ground. What was even more striking were the Summer lows - during heat waves when the marine inversion drops below 500 feet, the temperature wouldn't drop below 70F at night, not very comfortable sleeping weather. Here in the hills closer to the ocean it's a little cooler at night in the Summer, hopefully not too cool for the bismarckia.

Axel, Zone 16 extends east from the foothills into the lower elevation slim thermal belt where I am located near the border of Los Altos Hills and Los Altos. My typical yearly low is just barely above 32F and frost is light and occasional. December/January high/low average is 60F/40F and July/August is 80F/59F. I'm eating papayas grown in my yard and my young mango has set fruit this year for the first time. My bananas and heliconia receive superficial leaf tip damage most winters. Winter 2007 we experienced a low of 26F, the lowest since the nasty 1990 freeze.

Jim, you get way more heat than I do, and your lows are considerably higher in the Summer. 59F average Summer low is almost as warm as Vista, (Vista low is 62F) and as warm as Modesto, quite unusual for the Bay area, so you're in a special spot. Most of the surrounding cities around you have average lows maximum 54F or lower. That would explain your success with your roystonea. No chance of it succeeding here. I can grow Mountain papayas, but not solo papayas.

Axel, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Cupertino, west San Jose, and Los Gatos have similar temperature ranges with Los Gatos being hotter in the summer (July, 85F/55F) and the others right around 59F/39F Dec./Jan. and 79F/ 58F July. Los Altos Hills is 60F/40F in Dec./Jan. like me and 81F/60F for July, within a degree of my high lows. I have clients in Los Altos Hills that never see frost ever and it's obvious to my eye when their exposed bananas, ginger, and canna lilies are solid green by the end of every winter. I wish I could say that about my yard but I can't really complain.

I was looking at the NOAA Western Climate Summaries, couldn't find Los Altos, but Santa Clara, San Jose and Palo Alto all had 55F average lows in the Summer. I believe you on the frost, that entire slope from Menlo Park down to Los Altos is where Sunset came up with the zone 16 concept. Alas, my bananas fry almost every year from 1-2 nights around 31-32F. Anything under canopy doesn't get fried, but anything exposed to the night sky is hastalavista. It's like clockwork around here.

What kind of papayas are you growing? You should graft the roots onto chamburro, you'll get more papayas much sooner ion the year.

[Jim in Los Altos]

Very old thread but worth bringing back up. My Bismarck here in Northern CA with considerably more trunk than the few inches in 2013 and doing well but a lot slower than in Florida for instance. 

 

2024

 

2013

[Harry’s Palms]

@Jim in Los Altos That is pretty good growth for a California Bizmarkia . They are rare here in SoCal but around if you look for them. Harry

I was coming home from work and saw the tip of a frond from a street I go down . I decided to investigate and found this lovely specimen by a church . They also had Majesty and Sabal planted across the ally.

A very nice example being photobombed by the Decipiens . This is in Ventura at Pauline Sullivans garden. The gardens are being very well maintained by her grandson , I’m happy to say!

[Jadd Correia]

 

Here is an awesome one in Oakland, CA. I have a few planted that I started from seed in my Oakland garden that I hope gets this big someday!