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the speed of the mule


sonoranfans
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How long does it take for a Mule Palm to grow a ten foot trunk if you start out with a seven gallon pot?  I have had a Mule for a few years and, although it has formed a huge crown crown very quickly. It has not started trunking at all.  A queen palm of the same age would be easy to walk underneath by now.

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Looking at the 1G plants I have some are much faster than others for sure; just like some are less hardy than others.  I think the more inherited butia traits the slower they are and probably hardier.  I know the thinner leafed mules burn a lot easier than the thicker leafed ones.

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Thanks TexasColdHardy.  Has anyone out there grown a mule palm that you are now able to walk/stand underneath?  If so, how long did it take you to get to that point?

I'm just trying to make a landscaping decision based on the info I receive.....sooner rather than later. Thanks!

Edited by Sandy Loam
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3 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Thanks TexasColdHardy.  Has anyone out there grown a mule palm that you are now able to walk/stand underneath?  If so, how long did it take you to get to that point?

I'm just trying to make a landscaping decision based on the info I receive.....sooner rather than later. Thanks!

I saw many with 20-30 foot of trunk in the Dick Douglas garden in northern California, but they were likely over 30 years old.  Mine are 10-11 years in the ground from 3 gl and have between 2 and 4 feet of trunk.    With Mules best be in it for the long haul.

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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40 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

Wow, thanks Keith. That's rather disappointing to hear, but I appreciate your input.

Just noticing your warmer zone.  They might be faster for you, but I still would not consider them fast growing.  Here they grow about 1/4th the speed of a Queen.  

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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I bought this mule palm about a month ago for $100 in Jacksonville, Fl. I've trimmed half of the fronds off, and the remaining are a little tattered from the drive back . But otherwise, I got an awesome deal.

IMG_1343 (2).JPG

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1 hour ago, Rothbardian1 said:

I bought this mule palm about a month ago for $100 in Jacksonville, Fl. I've trimmed half of the fronds off, and the remaining are a little tattered from the drive back . But otherwise, I got an awesome deal.

IMG_1343 (2).JPG

That is the deal of the century.

 

In my post I sometimes express "my" opinion. Warning, it may differ from "your" opinion. If so, please do not feel insulted, just state your own if you wish. Any data in this post is provided 'as is' and in no event shall I be liable for any damages, including, without limitation, damages resulting from accuracy or lack thereof, insult, or any other damages

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4 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Rothbardian1, who is selling such huge Mule Palms for $100 in Jacksonville?

I found it on the Marketplace app on FB.  A Sod company was laying grassdown in someone’s yard, and the owner of the property asked them to pull it up. He said he was tired of looking at it. 

The ad said $300 or best offer. I offered him $100. I’m suprised he said yes. I would have paid $500. The palm is a $1000 palm I would guess. 

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On ‎3‎/‎2‎/‎2018‎ ‎8‎:‎22‎:‎12‎, TexasColdHardyPalms said:

Great deal there.

I just hope it survives the transplant shock. The roots dried out for a couple days before he posted it. And, I'm sure he just pulled it up with a tractor or something. It wasn't a great root ball either, but it wasn't teeny. The center spear is growing and is still green.

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Bought a pretty decent size Mule today myself. It's my third and the biggest i have planted now. After seeing what Mules go for online i think i got a pretty good deal. There's a nursery in Panama City Beach that sells them for $175 but got mine for $125 cash. They're all around 8ft tall (actual plant size and not counting the pot/roots) with about 1ft of trunk height and 10in. wide at the base of the trunk.

Photo Mar 08, 2 04 56 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 2 05 08 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 4 50 02 PM.jpg

Edited by Estlander
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53 minutes ago, Estlander said:

Bought a pretty decent size Mule today myself. It's my third and the biggest i have planted now. After seeing what Mules go for online i think i got a pretty good deal. There's a nursery in Panama City Beach that sells them for $175 but got mine for $125 cash. They're all around 8ft tall (actual plant size and not counting the pot/roots) with about 1ft of trunk height and 10in. wide at the base of the trunk.

Photo Mar 08, 2 04 56 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 2 05 08 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 4 50 02 PM.jpg

I'm going to have to talk my wife into taking a drive down there for that price. What's the name of the place? Maybe I can talk them down from $175.

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17 minutes ago, Rothbardian1 said:

I'm going to have to talk my wife into taking a drive down there for that price. What's the name of the place? Maybe I can talk them down from $175.

This is their website:

http://lisenbypalmspanamacityfl.com/

If you tell them you have cash they will give you a better price.  Have bought quite a few palms and plants from them and always got a better deal when paid in cash. 

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1 hour ago, Estlander said:

This is their website:

http://lisenbypalmspanamacityfl.com/

If you tell them you have cash they will give you a better price.  Have bought quite a few palms and plants from them and always got a better deal when paid in cash. 

My wife is probably going to want to buy a few 18’ Sabal Palms instead. I can get them for $75. But I would need to find a long trailer and a truck to haul them back. 

Personally I’d rather buy the Mules. 

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6 hours ago, Rothbardian1 said:

My wife is probably going to want to buy a few 18’ Sabal Palms instead. I can get them for $75. But I would need to find a long trailer and a truck to haul them back. 

Personally I’d rather buy the Mules. 

Explain to her how rare Mules are. With Sabals your yard would be like any other. With a Mule, however, you’d have the envy of your neighbors lol. 

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8 hours ago, Rothbardian1 said:

My wife is probably going to want to buy a few 18’ Sabal Palms instead. I can get them for $75. But I would need to find a long trailer and a truck to haul them back. 

Personally I’d rather buy the Mules. 

Would love to bring a trailer of Palmettos back to CA for those prices.

Robert

Madera, CA (central San Joaquin valley)

9A

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In my central valley location, I find various BxS hybrids to not show much hybrid vigor and not faster than standard queens.  Out of all of my hybrids, Butia paraguayensis x Syagrus rom, and (BxJ)xS are probably the fastest.  Butia yatay x Syagrus rom looks like it has the potential to take off, but they haven't been in the ground that long.

Will try and post some pictures this weekend.

Robert

Madera, CA (central San Joaquin valley)

9A

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Pictures #2 and #3 are 2007 germinated, BxS hybrids from Patric .  Both were labeled 'Rainbow x Queen-G' and planted in Oct. 2010 from 2G tree pots.  They have maybe 2' of trunk (if I am being generous).  Compare to Sabal uresana (middle) planted in April 2010 from a 5G.  The Rainbow hybrid is a bit more tender than 'Poni x Q' and even at this size, shows frond damage and some spotting with freezes in the low 20's F.  Just for fun, the palm in the foreground of #2 is Sabal pumos.

Picture #1 is probably 'Poni x Queen', from the same germination vintage, but planted in 2012.  The Poni hybrids are a nice dark green, with maybe a hint of blue.

#4 is Poni x Queen, also planted in Oct. 2010 from a 2G tree pot.  I don't consider 7 years for maybe 3' of trunk hybrid vigor.  I don't remember anything other than maybe some minor spotting down to 19.8F on this tree.  It flowered for the first time maybe 3 years ago.  'Rainbow x Queen-G have not flowered.

Sorry, the pictures posted out of order, so the text reference are not in logical order.

DSCN3556.jpg

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Copy of DSCN3389.jpg

Edited by iwan
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Robert

Madera, CA (central San Joaquin valley)

9A

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Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Poni x Queen".  I know what a Queen Palm is, but not a "Poni."

Sorry, I'm confused about the photos too.  You wrote that photos 2 and 3 are the same palm, but they look totally different to me.  Perhaps the photos did not attach to your post in the order that you planned for.  To clarify:  What are the palms in the last two photos above?  (Nice palms, by the way)

Thanks.

 

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A couple more comparisons.  Butia yatay x syagrus planted 7/2012 from a 1G.  I was mistaken earlier when I said I didn't have a larger YxS.  This one is in full sun and gets watered maybe once a week in the summer, so it is a bit stressed in the xeric front acre.  P. canariensis was planted around 2006/7 from a 15G.  This Yatay x Syagrus is probably my fastest hybrid so far.

DSCN2969.thumb.jpg.d1f45daa44086c2618cca

 

This Butia yatay x Syagrus gets regular water and is in a more sheltered spot.  Planted 7/2015.

 

DSCN2908.thumb.jpg.b2f450c1604e8f42d6c2b

 

Just to show my perceived lack of hybrid vigor, here is Butia HBG x Jubaea, open pollinated, from Dick Douglas' mother tree.  This is most likely (BxJ)xB since the mother is self sterile.  Planted 7/2007 from a 2G tree pot.  I don't have a picture of it right now, but this is about the same size as a Butia odorata planted two years later from a 15G.  Just limbed up so that I could mow under it.

 

DSCN3395.thumb.jpg.a2f22b136f15126926bda

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Robert

Madera, CA (central San Joaquin valley)

9A

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22 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what is "Poni x Queen".  I know what a Queen Palm is, but not a "Poni."

Sorry, I'm confused about the photos too.  You wrote that photos 2 and 3 are the same palm, but they look totally different to me.  Perhaps the photos did not attach to your post in the order that you planned for.  To clarify:  What are the palms in the last two photos above?  (Nice palms, by the way)

Thanks.

 

Sorry, the pictures did not post in the order that I uploaded them and I had to change the text, to match the picture order, so things do not flow well.

These are all specific hybrid identifications of Butia odorata x Syagrus rom from different parentage.  Dick Douglas had names for some of his parent palms and Patric noted that to differentiate the hybrids.  There is some documentation regarding this directly from Dick on the forum somewhere.  From my recollection Butia 'Poni' is now a synonym for B. odorata from a specific provenance.  'Rainbow' just described a mother that had very colorful fruit. 

None of the palms are the same.  They are all from seeds germinated (assumed from the dates) around the same time and planted at the same time (mostly).  I don't know if Patric had made these specific crosses lately.  The focus seems to be on more exotic hybrids now.

 

 

Robert

Madera, CA (central San Joaquin valley)

9A

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On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2018‎ ‎1‎:‎46‎:‎26‎, Estlander said:

Bought a pretty decent size Mule today myself. It's my third and the biggest i have planted now. After seeing what Mules go for online i think i got a pretty good deal. There's a nursery in Panama City Beach that sells them for $175 but got mine for $125 cash. They're all around 8ft tall (actual plant size and not counting the pot/roots) with about 1ft of trunk height and 10in. wide at the base of the trunk.

Photo Mar 08, 2 04 56 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 2 05 08 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 4 50 02 PM.jpg

Keith!!!!!! Income Tax Return, hook up trailer, head tp Panama Beach and Muley Forrest. :drool:

Coral Gables, FL 8 miles North of Fairchild USDA Zone 10B

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2 hours ago, Tampa Scott said:

2011 and today...

Not too bad for 7yrs imo. :greenthumb:

Westchase | 9b,  St. Petersburg | 9b,  Laurel | 10a

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On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2018‎ ‎4‎:‎52‎:‎37‎, RedRabbit said:

Not too bad for 7yrs imo. :greenthumb:

I was a little curious and went out with a tape measure and measured this 10 yr from seed palm. From the center  growing point of the crown down to ground 12' 3''.  

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  • 5 weeks later...

Does anyone have experience growing mule palms in very deep shade?  I have an extremely shady spot (zero direct sunlight) where I am considering planting a mule palm, but I won't bother if it will just sit there and not grow quickly.  I have made many mistakes like this, e.g. growing phoenix palms in shade that hardly grow at all in those conditions. 

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No one has responded to this question. Does anyone have experience growing Mule Palms in deep shade?  If so, how slowly did they grow?

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Sandy keep in touch with me on this topic.  I just planted some 3-4’ 3 gallon in my yard.  They are all different sizes but some more shady than others.  So far I have some putting out new fronds and haven’t done much for them special.

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I am growing one in medium shade (under post oak canopy) and another in full sun but they've only been in the ground for a month or 2 so it is too early to say. I'll keep you posted (maybe start a new thread where we can collect and organize experience?).
:)

Edited by Swolte
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  • 2 weeks later...

Sandy Loam,
Here are my Mules planted from 3g pots 4 years ago, and today.  The one on the right is 10 feet.  If I wanted to (I don't)  I could cut off the horizontal fronds and easily walk under.  We do get enough of a winter here that they stop growing for a few months so you may get more growth in general.  These bake in the sun all year in South Central Texas so no help there as far as shade grown.  The yellow fronds are the damage they took from this years nasty winter and i'll cut those off as soon as the tree is done cannibalizing them.  Hope this helps with your landscaping decision.
V/r
Brett

 

June 18 2014.JPG

May 9 2018.JPG

Edited by Duppy
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On 3/9/2018, 12:46:26, Estlander said:

Bought a pretty decent size Mule today myself. It's my third and the biggest i have planted now. After seeing what Mules go for online i think i got a pretty good deal. There's a nursery in Panama City Beach that sells them for $175 but got mine for $125 cash. They're all around 8ft tall (actual plant size and not counting the pot/roots) with about 1ft of trunk height and 10in. wide at the base of the trunk.

Photo Mar 08, 2 04 56 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 2 05 08 PM.jpg

Photo Mar 08, 4 50 02 PM.jpg

I was at the nursery in San Antonio last week and the guy was talking to somebody on the phone recommending Mules.  I overheard him tell the person an 8 footer with about a foot of trunk was 700$.  I didn't see them on my walkthrough but after hearing that, I didn't need to.

Edited by Duppy
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9 hours ago, Duppy said:

Sandy Loam,
Here are my Mules planted from 3g pots 4 years ago, and today.  The one on the right is 10 feet.  If I wanted to (I don't)  I could cut off the horizontal fronds and easily walk under.  We do get enough of a winter here that they stop growing for a few months so you may get more growth in general.  These bake in the sun all year in South Central Texas so no help there as far as shade grown.  The yellow fronds are the damage they took from this years nasty winter and i'll cut those off as soon as the tree is done cannibalizing them.  Hope this helps with your landscaping decision.
V/r
Brett

 

June 18 2014.JPG

May 9 2018.JPG

Wow, those look fabulous and beautiful crowns on them. Nice trunking too. I remember seeing your post when you first planted them. I was thinking of updating some photos from our yard including our mules. Probably do so in the next few weeks. 

Zone 9b (formerly listed as Zone 9a); Sunset 14

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On 3/9/2018, 7:50:12, Estlander said:

Explain to her how rare Mules are. With Sabals your yard would be like any other. With a Mule, however, you’d have the envy of your neighbors lol. 

Plus I'll add that if you are planning to be in your home for a number of years, mules are great for providing shade from their larger canopy, especially when compared against a sabal. We didn't want to plant deciduous trees for shade and instead went with two mules flanking our outdoor pergola and one next to our bbq island. So happy with our choice. They act as our shade trees. Ours are planted in the sun. Actually I see that Axel had posted photos of two of them at the beginning of the thread.

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Zone 9b (formerly listed as Zone 9a); Sunset 14

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