COLD HARDY FORUM REQUEST

[PALM MOD]

In response to a recent request, the PT Committee has agreed unanimously that splitting off a "Cold Hardy" Forum from the main "Discussing Palms" Forum is not something we wish to pursue. The main reason being one of a desire to keep all palm people together, as opposed to splitting them into different categories.

However, we wish to make it abundantly clear that discussions about cold-hardy genera is vital and welcome subject matter on PT, and we have some suggestions to make things more accommodating to those who are growing palms in colder climates.

The tagging feature is designed specifically for matters like this. I would suggest to those posting topics geared for the "colder crew," to tag them with "cold-hardy" or a zone number. This would accomplish several things. As you become more familiar with the tagging system, you will see why this will make it much easier for those seeking cold-hardy info. For example, you could bring up all topics that have been tagged for "Zone 9," or for "Zone 9b," etc. Topics would then be even more categorized and easier to find than creating multiple forums. And eventually such tagging will even begin to guide you to other topics along the same lines as the one you are reading at the moment.

In addition, if a zone is added to your profile, in either the "location" field or in your signature, that would enable others in the same or similar zone to first go to your profile, and second to view every topic you started or posted in. That would also be an excellent way to network through topics mostly related to your interests.

But it is up to the person posting to tag the topic. So, if people begin to see the advantage of categorizing topics in this manner and use it, perhaps it will be used for all topic categories that may hold a common interest. Suppose everyone who posted a Dypsis ID question tagged their topic with "Dypsis ID" - then the Dypsis ID freaks would be able to pull up and read all those threads easily. So if some common tags were agreed on, this would be a welcome helpful addition.

Feel free to use this topic for feedback, more suggestions, or a place to encourage more use of the tagging feature.

[Stevetoad]

I didn't like the splitting idea anyways. Palm nuts are palm nuts no matter what zone your in. We all belong in the same basket.

[Hammer]

I really enjoy reading the cold threads here. I learn a ton from them. I'm still a palm neophyte so the knowledge passed along is very valuable to me even in my 10a location.

[wimmie]

Though I am a "coldhardy" member of Palmtalk, I am growing tropical palms like Cocos nucifera indoors too and so I also like to read about tropical palms. This is why I support moderator's opinion and his suggestions.

Regards,

Wim.

[Texeltropics]

Dean we should not forget that a lot of people dont speak english that good, you talk about the tagging thing and the zone adding. Its a great thing, and i understand, but i think its hard for a lot of people to figure out how it works and that it even exsists?

If nothing changes its oke too, i will find my way through this forum, as i do with other forums...but the question was how do we get these cold hardy people here...

I can help promote and put a link from IPS on my website...

[PALM MOD]

Dean we should not forget that a lot of people dont speak english that good, you talk about the tagging thing and the zone adding. Its a great thing, and i understand, but i think its hard for a lot of people to figure out how it works and that it even exsists?

If nothing changes its oke too, i will find my way through this forum, as i do with other forums...but the question was how do we get these cold hardy people here...

I can help promote and put a link from IPS on my website...

Esther - that is why I only offered some suggestions - a mention of some of the tools that the forum (and many forums/blogs) have for just this type of categorizing. It has to be up to the users to figure out how to make it work. In other words, to come up with the tags or terminology that people will accept and use for what it is they are trying to categorize. BTW - for anyone wondering where or what the tags are, just start a new topic and look at the next line after you enter the topic title.

But I don't know of any solution that will solve the language barrier. At least we all speak a little Latin here.

And your English, along with most of the other foreign speakers, is fine. You should all give yourselves a lot of credit, because I never have a problem understanding any of you. And if you ever have a question about anything that you don't understand, don't hesitate to PM me.

[Rafael]

Brrrrrrr, it's snowing

[Trópico]

In addition, if a zone is added to your profile, in either the "location" field or in your signature, that would enable others in the same or similar zone to first go to your profile, and second to view every topic you started or posted in. That would also be an excellent way to network through topics mostly related to your interests.

Please, you can lie about your age, but don't lie about your zone

[Texeltropics]

In addition, if a zone is added to your profile, in either the "location" field or in your signature, that would enable others in the same or similar zone to first go to your profile, and second to view every topic you started or posted in. That would also be an excellent way to network through topics mostly related to your interests.

Please, you can lie about your age, but don't lie about your zone

:floor: :greenthumb:

[sonoranfans]

Not many below zone 9b post here anyway, just a handfull. Im zone 10a so it wont be of any real help posting my zone for cold hardy folks. Most palms are grown in zone 10 and up anyway. Those that would like to grow palms in the lower zones will find what they need wherever it is easiest on the internet.

[Jeff Searle]

I didn't like the splitting idea anyways. Palm nuts are palm nuts no matter what zone your in. We all belong in the same basket.

Totally agree.

[doranakandawatta]

Yes, I agree!

I discovered the tropical palms all the years I was dreaming in front of a ARECA lustescens or a Kentia in IKEA!

And tried to grow Trachycarpus or Chamaerops in my parent's garden in France; now Trachycarpus becomes invasive and seeds himself everywhere in the garden!
Much later ; i discovered Sri Lanka , his climate, nature, and culture and people.

Now I enjoy seeing hawaiian or australian Palmtalk threads because it shows what I can dream to achieve in Sri Lanka, but I like to see Californian or Floridan gardens which I compare with Mediterranean sheltered gardens of the french Riviera (Hyères les Palmiers) and I love seeing indoor plants like Oliver's , Verena's or cold hardy plants like Ester's.
I think that by the title we give on the post and the "tag" system, everybody can find what interest him (I discovered thanks to Kim or someone's the Search engine system; good solutions to re-discover older threads!)

More: I discovered the camaraderie (friendship) with Palmtalk members living far away but being close by with Palmtalk:

Splitting would keep some in one forum, the others in one other forum, maybe the same way actually Travel Log is not so much seen as Discussing... can be!

Kindest regards

Philippe

[LJG]

Not many below zone 9b post here anyway, just a handfull. Im zone 10a so it wont be of any real help posting my zone for cold hardy folks. Most palms are grown in zone 10 and up anyway. Those that would like to grow palms in the lower zones will find what they need wherever it is easiest on the internet.

I would assume this is why the cold hardy section would have been put in place. To get those that don't post here to join and participate.

[sonoranfans]

Not many below zone 9b post here anyway, just a handfull. Im zone 10a so it wont be of any real help posting my zone for cold hardy folks. Most palms are grown in zone 10 and up anyway. Those that would like to grow palms in the lower zones will find what they need wherever it is easiest on the internet.

I would assume this is why the cold hardy section would have been put in place. To get those that don't post here to join and participate.

Yup Len, that is what I assume would attract more cold hardy growers as well... access to those with the same interests.

[_Keith]

You are wasting your breath on getting a cold hardy forum. What is interesting is that it is the the Zone 10+ people, to whom it would not apply, are always the first to crush the idea. So yes, the cold hardy palm people don't post much here. They go to other places to find people withi similar interest and information. In the meantime the IPS remains the "tropical" place to be, which seems to me makes the "I" in IPS a bit silly.

[Texeltropics]

splitting is not a good idea!!...people need to stay at one forum...!!

[sonoranfans]

splitting is not a good idea!!...people need to stay at one forum...!!

Its already "split up" if you hadnt noticed. Most cold hardy growers are at another forum. You cant stop people from splitting off, they will go where they get what they want... Maybe one forum cant be all things to all people anyway. If you grow things inside that another area all together, growing under lights.... but its not cold hardy...

[LJG]

splitting is not a good idea!!...people need to stay at one forum...!!

Its already "split up" if you hadnt noticed. Most cold hardy growers are at another forum. You cant stop people from splitting off, they will go where they get what they want... Maybe one forum cant be all things to all people anyway. If you grow things inside that another area all together, growing under lights.... but its not cold hardy...

There are two ways to run organizations. The "you are only as good as your weakest link" or the "you are only as good as your strongest assets". A massive hemorrhaging of members should tell you how this one has been run. This isn't meant to offend anyone only point out sometimes people take too much stock in those with no knowledge or experience on certain matters but tend to be most vocal.

[mnorell]

I agree that splitting something like "cold hardy" is not a good idea as it's such a subjective term. I firmly believe from my own experiences that palm people are a very good-natured, friendly and helpful bunch and like to help across zones whenever possible. I also think that there are probably more colder-zone people here than one might think, though many of them may be lurkers.

I would like to suggest that people post their locations as specifically as they can, and with whatever zone or climatological data they have at hand. I think it would be very helpful for everyone's sake in trying to answer cultural questions. I happen to have two growing locations and I try to give detailed climate data for both, though unfortunately the current PalmTalk system will not allow me to update my signature with updated minima, etc. due to a limit in the new system of three total lines per signature. Dean, is there any way to increase this limit so members could add a bit more info in their signatures if they so desire? Perhaps adding a dedicated zone/climate-data section, or increasing the allowable length of the location field in the profile, may get around any technical limitations in the system? Also, the mobile version of PalmTalk omits member-locations entirely. I often am reading threads on my phone and it's extremely frustrating to me that no member-location info is displayed in that mode.

[ErikSJI]

How many members of the PT Committee who voted are growing in a zone less then 9a? If I were to take a guess none. Which of course gives you your decision. It does not take much to make a sub forum for these guys. This by far is the best palm forum out there. Yet others choose to use other forums with people they can relate with in there zones. You asked to bring more people to your forum and this is a way you can do that by simply adding another category. If you build it they will come.

[ErikSJI]

You do not need to split off. Just make a sub forum.

[WestCoastGal]

Just noticed this topic and since I'm a 9a recently reclassified as a 9b zone newbie palm owner (and Sunset 14--feel like this is the worst zone in the bay area we could have moved to--you should know I have Zone Envy of many of you), I thought I would share my thoughts. While I love looking at various palms that are definitely out of my zone (what's not to love and drool over), both my husband and I are looking for a low-maintenance, healthy-looking palm yard so are more interested in planting cold hardy palms and learning what's out there in that range. I personally think it would be nice to have a topic area dedicated to cold hardies and will leave it at that.

[Texeltropics]

You do not need to split off. Just make a sub forum.

:greenthumb:

[Alicehunter2000]

Hmm....I find just about everything I need, cold-hardy or not here. Didn't really know it was a problem for PT that we may potentially be pushing people to other sites. I like Dean's idea of promoting tags. A simple tag like "Cold Hardy" would help those who conduct searches. My question is what constitutes "Cold Hardy"? Personally, I would hate to have to search another sub forum to search for something like C. alba which some might consider cold hardy and others might not.

Trying to figure out where to draw the line on something as subjective as cold hardiness is not a good idea IMO. I do find myself reading threads more often on species that are closer to my zone....which is probably the norm for most people. Should we create another subforum for those in "cool climates" or "Mediteranian climates"? both of those don't pertain to me.....though cool climate folks can't relate to how hot my "cold hardy" zone gets in the summer. Med people can't relate to the high humidity levels.....and lets not forget those with clay soil and bad drainage.....and people who live in the desert...swamp people...those inland folks......you get the idea.

[sonoranfans]

I think that if you are in a zone 9a or below and think you don't need a sub forum to grow the 9a and below membership, you need to be on here to answer questions for those new folks who come on to ask information about growing palms in those zones. Its just human nature, but the less informed are not going to think someone in zone 10 or up can help them with their zone 8-9x problems. So don't come on and say how we don't need a sub forum and then go and disappear for 4 weeks... We act as if it is the new posters problem to find someone who can help, but if palm talk is going to expand membership in this area, and you are serious about helping, its your responsibility to help. I have 6 years of growing experience in 9a, so I have some limited knowledge on growing some of these palms. I think it would be easier for me to check the cold hardy posts each time before my own zone interests if they were easily identified. We don't have many of these colder zone members actively posting yet, so our ability to respond and bring in those new posters to the fold depends on you zone 9a and below people...

[Kostas]

I totally agree with the decission made. Tagging the way described would solve the problem while keeping it all tidy and in one place

I think that each area around the world has its own unique set of conditions,including minimums,cold duration and frequency,frost/ hail occurrence and severity,seasonal rainfall,soil and many many more factors,so many that I thinks it's up to each member to gain as much knowledge and experience on its growing area as possible,to be able to know how other's experience with a certain palm species under certain conditions,will most likely apply to this species when cultivated in his growing environment. That way,everyone can benefit from reading experiences from all around the world and from many different zones,on the species he likes. I know I do and love reading threads from my zones and a zone up to obtain cold hardiness data for the species I like plus threads from any zone to figure out what the growth rate is And of course,I love to drool over favorites of mine I can grow at my places unfortunately...

Of course,you may say,your garden is in zone 9b/10a and I can't deny that,but you must know I grow up all my potted plants in cold Melissia,zone 8b/9a and also have a few ground planted palms there. I find that PalmTalk provides all I need to know to grow my palms at both zones,I just have to always consider what i am reading and adjust it to my growing environment. Getting more info is always better than less,so I don't think that splitting a sub forum would be good for anyone,neither the "zone 10 and above" nor the "cold hardy growers"(bad description since even zone 10 growers search for cold hardy palms for their zones and get damages or death on them when the weather is not nice,which seldom is!) as they both love some of the same species and grow them,with both "categories"(why shall we categorize and split simple palm love ) much to learn from each other. Also,since the current category is open from any thread,whoever wants to ask something,from whatever zone,just posts his question,what's simpler?

Now,on gaining more members from really cold zones,I think that's not a matter of splitting a category but of providing the knowledge. With a multitude of other forums on growing plants in very cold zones and years and years of useful postings on that matter,and experience,I don't think winning such members over is easy. They need a full database on these matters and building one isn't fast or easy. A start could be a few articles really specific on overwintering in cold zones maybe and if they are detailed and good enough,members from colder zones may be gained or post more. Or maybe its just intimidating for such members to post pictures among the very beautiful tropical ones posted daily? I don't know but it could be a factor. I know I am intimidated at times from the perfect and mature palm gardens i see here posted but do post though!

[_Keith]

Here is one of cold hardy boards. (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1361543444.html) If you have been on PT a number of years like I have, and spend enough time on these other cold hardy palm forums, you will see many people who have come and gone on PT. Some even still come around on PT occaisionally, but post 10 to 1 with the 10 being on other boards and the 1 post on PT. I think this is a shame and wish we could keep more of these folks on PT, or drive new ones here as well. The shame is, if you are in a cold hardy area and want to talk to others about cold hardy issues, these other places are more desirable for that purpose. Let's face it, if you post your pride and joy Queen palm or W. robusta on PT, it is not likely to generate much conversation and follow-up post. Even worse, occaisionally, you are likely to get a snide remark about what a "common" palm, it. It has happened to me more than once and I have seen it happen to others. They just quit posting and next time you run across them they are posting away and getting lots of interaction on boards like the above.

PT is a great resource for information and interaction for zone 9b and higher zones. I wish it was that for all zones.

And on the lighter side, I did not land you on that Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board by accident. Hard to believe that scene is in Canada in the winter. Shame I didn't see that first on Cold Hardy forum on PT.

[Jastin]

If we split it so there is a cold hardy section we need to split it again into a Hawaii section cause I can't grow many of their palms and I've never had frost. It just seems silly to me. Use the tags. I love reading about Hawaii stuff, container ranches, Florida stuff that I can't grow, etc. splitting would only narrow our overall knowledge about palms. If you want to know what you can and can't grow look on the freeze damage section. I live in 10a and I'm in the cold hardy section compared to the tropical parts of the world.

[PALM MOD]

Here is one of cold hardy boards. (http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/msg/1361543444.html) If you have been on PT a number of years like I have, and spend enough time on these other cold hardy palm forums, you will see many people who have come and gone on PT. Some even still come around on PT occaisionally, but post 10 to 1 with the 10 being on other boards and the 1 post on PT. I think this is a shame and wish we could keep more of these folks on PT, or drive new ones here as well. The shame is, if you are in a cold hardy area and want to talk to others about cold hardy issues, these other places are more desirable for that purpose. Let's face it, if you post your pride and joy Queen palm or W. robusta on PT, it is not likely to generate much conversation and follow-up post. Even worse, occaisionally, you are likely to get a snide remark about what a "common" palm, it. It has happened to me more than once and I have seen it happen to others. They just quit posting and next time you run across them they are posting away and getting lots of interaction on boards like the above.

PT is a great resource for information and interaction for zone 9b and higher zones. I wish it was that for all zones.

And on the lighter side, I did not land you on that Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board by accident. Hard to believe that scene is in Canada in the winter. Shame I didn't see that first on Cold Hardy forum on PT.

If I could make it so, would any of you guys be willing to volunteer to go back and add the tag "Cold Hardy" to all the appropriate old topics?

[Kostas]

I do would be willing to volunteer

[JakeK]

I did a quick search of the main forum for topics regarding Trachycarpus and another on Dypsis. The results are clear from this one test. Topics focused on the most cold-hardy palms receive only about 1/3 the number of posts and 1/3 to 1/4 the number of views. This was just one quick search but I think the insight here is that for most PT members, topics about the most cold-hardy palms aren't that interesting or engaging for the majority of PT members. I think it is clear that PT caters mainly to palm growers of sub-tropical and tropical species. I don't think this is a conscious decision but rather a function of the representation of the membership. If we believe our target who is all palm growers and that we are lacking the diversity that temperate palm growers bring then I think the decision is clear, make a cold-hardy/temperate palm sub-board and recruit a passionate member of that sub-group to moderate that board. If we believe our target who is the subtropical and tropical palm grower then don't create a sub-board and I also wouldn't tag posts specifically related to cold-hardy/temperate palms because PT isn't designed to attract them anyways and it would be wasted effort. I will say this though, on other boards the view of PT is that of only tropical and sub-tropical palms and there isn't a need to visit PT, so if you want to tag postings or create a sub-forum then you also need to do some recruitment of posters from other boards otherwise again, you are just wasting time and effort.

[LJG]

I did a quick search of the main forum for topics regarding Trachycarpus and another on Dypsis. The results are clear from this one test. Topics focused on the most cold-hardy palms receive only about 1/3 the number of posts and 1/3 to 1/4 the number of views. This was just one quick search but I think the insight here is that for most PT members, topics about the most cold-hardy palms aren't that interesting or engaging for the majority of PT members. I think it is clear that PT caters mainly to palm growers of sub-tropical and tropical species. I don't think this is a conscious decision but rather a function of the representation of the membership. If we believe our target who is all palm growers and that we are lacking the diversity that temperate palm growers bring then I think the decision is clear, make a cold-hardy/temperate palm sub-board and recruit a passionate member of that sub-group to moderate that board. If we believe our target who is the subtropical and tropical palm grower then don't create a sub-board and I also wouldn't tag posts specifically related to cold-hardy/temperate palms because PT isn't designed to attract them anyways and it would be wasted effort. I will say this though, on other boards the view of PT is that of only tropical and sub-tropical palms and there isn't a need to visit PT, so if you want to tag postings or create a sub-forum then you also need to do some recruitment of posters from other boards otherwise again, you are just wasting time and effort.

It is good to see someone that gets it. This isn't about breaking up PT it is about attracting those not here and providing a place they feel welcomed. It is obvious these people post elsewhere now anyway. It won't be a forum I will frequent so I really don't have a horse in this race. However I would love to see PT grow which would then increase IPS members. Putting tags for cold hardy is a waste of time and won't change anything IMHO.

[PALM MOD]

I did a quick search of the main forum for topics regarding Trachycarpus and another on Dypsis. The results are clear from this one test. Topics focused on the most cold-hardy palms receive only about 1/3 the number of posts and 1/3 to 1/4 the number of views. This was just one quick search but I think the insight here is that for most PT members, topics about the most cold-hardy palms aren't that interesting or engaging for the majority of PT members. I think it is clear that PT caters mainly to palm growers of sub-tropical and tropical species. I don't think this is a conscious decision but rather a function of the representation of the membership. If we believe our target who is all palm growers and that we are lacking the diversity that temperate palm growers bring then I think the decision is clear, make a cold-hardy/temperate palm sub-board and recruit a passionate member of that sub-group to moderate that board. If we believe our target who is the subtropical and tropical palm grower then don't create a sub-board and I also wouldn't tag posts specifically related to cold-hardy/temperate palms because PT isn't designed to attract them anyways and it would be wasted effort. I will say this though, on other boards the view of PT is that of only tropical and sub-tropical palms and there isn't a need to visit PT, so if you want to tag postings or create a sub-forum then you also need to do some recruitment of posters from other boards otherwise again, you are just wasting time and effort.

It is good to see someone that gets it. This isn't about breaking up PT it is about attracting those not here and providing a place they feel welcomed. It is obvious these people post elsewhere now anyway. It won't be a forum I will frequent so I really don't have a horse in this race. However I would love to see PT grow which would then increase IPS members. Putting tags for cold hardy is a waste of time and won't change anything IMHO.

Len - it may not be about breaking up PT (the Main Forum) - but that is what it would do. And even if I agreed with you, we would still be a long way in getting the others to agree with doing so. So after facing reality, I am now trying to come up with something that might even prove to be more useful.

You mentioned not having an issue with topics over lapping, and just letting the members "work it out." But IMO, having some C-H topics in a C-H forum, and other C-H topics in Discussing Palms, seems to defeat the purpose.

Example: if we had a C-H Forum, and the recent topic "Plectocomia himalayana Propogation" was posted in "Discussing Palms" - should it stay there? If so, then what good is it doing the C-H crowd? And if it is moved, as you admitted - you and many others would never see it. Is it a "Discussing Palms" propagation topic, or a C-H topic?

But if kept in the Main Palm Fourm, and it had a C-H tag and a Propagation tag attached, it would accomplish three objectives. That is, keep everyone together on the "same page," while also becoming part of a comprehensive Cold Hardy Category. In addition, it would also become part of a comprehensive Propagation Category - which BTW, has been proposed more than once for its own separate forum as well. In addition, topics about gardens like Dick's and Daryl's could have a Cold Hardy tag attached - because again, their gardens would be missed by a lot of people if posted in a C-H Forum, and vice versa.

On forums that make good use of tagging, this proves to be a more fluid and enjoyable way to move through related topics, than using the Search feature, or restricting your reading to a few forums only.

[Alicehunter2000]

Again....what about us people on the edge of what is cold hardy and what is not? Where would we need to go? Here I am pushing the 9a envelope. Some on here say that I am not even 9a but 8b....yet this year I have had a 10a winter....so what do I do?.....like most on here pushing their zones to the max....we search out species that might just make it in a warm microclimate. Dypsis decipiens, C. alba's, L. saribus, A. cahune ......where do these palms fit in?.....cold hardy or not?

Don't make me have to switch back and forth between 2 sub-forums to try and get marginal info. Dean's idea is best IMO....create a cold hardy tag and be done with it. If people want to go to another forum to post Trachy and C. humilis threads thats fine, they are free to do so; but I think even these folks like to push their zones and can find threads that have palms that are marginal to them easily on PT with the search feature.

[_Keith]

I did a quick search of the main forum for topics regarding Trachycarpus and another on Dypsis. The results are clear from this one test. Topics focused on the most cold-hardy palms receive only about 1/3 the number of posts and 1/3 to 1/4 the number of views. This was just one quick search but I think the insight here is that for most PT members, topics about the most cold-hardy palms aren't that interesting or engaging for the majority of PT members. I think it is clear that PT caters mainly to palm growers of sub-tropical and tropical species. I don't think this is a conscious decision but rather a function of the representation of the membership. If we believe our target who is all palm growers and that we are lacking the diversity that temperate palm growers bring then I think the decision is clear, make a cold-hardy/temperate palm sub-board and recruit a passionate member of that sub-group to moderate that board. If we believe our target who is the subtropical and tropical palm grower then don't create a sub-board and I also wouldn't tag posts specifically related to cold-hardy/temperate palms because PT isn't designed to attract them anyways and it would be wasted effort. I will say this though, on other boards the view of PT is that of only tropical and sub-tropical palms and there isn't a need to visit PT, so if you want to tag postings or create a sub-forum then you also need to do some recruitment of posters from other boards otherwise again, you are just wasting time and effort.

It is good to see someone that gets it. This isn't about breaking up PT it is about attracting those not here and providing a place they feel welcomed. It is obvious these people post elsewhere now anyway. It won't be a forum I will frequent so I really don't have a horse in this race. However I would love to see PT grow which would then increase IPS members. Putting tags for cold hardy is a waste of time and won't change anything IMHO.

Len - it may not be about breaking up PT (the Main Forum) - but that is what it would do. And even if I agreed with you, we would still be a long way in getting the others to agree with doing so. So after facing reality, I am now trying to come up with something that might even prove to be more useful.

You mentioned not having an issue with topics over lapping, and just letting the members "work it out." But IMO, having some C-H topics in a C-H forum, and other C-H topics in Discussing Palms, seems to defeat the purpose.

Example: if we had a C-H Forum, and the recent topic "Plectocomia himalayana Propogation" was posted in "Discussing Palms" - should it stay there? If so, then what good is it doing the C-H crowd? And if it is moved, as you admitted - you and many others would never see it. Is it a "Discussing Palms" propagation topic, or a C-H topic?

But if kept in the Main Palm Fourm, and it had a C-H tag and a Propagation tag attached, it would accomplish three objectives. That is, keep everyone together on the "same page," while also becoming part of a comprehensive Cold Hardy Category. In addition, it would also become part of a comprehensive Propagation Category - which BTW, has been proposed more than once for its own separate forum as well. In addition, topics about gardens like Dick's and Daryl's could have a Cold Hardy tag attached - because again, their gardens would be missed by a lot of people if posted in a C-H Forum, and vice versa.

On forums that make good use of tagging, this proves to be a more fluid and enjoyable way to move through related topics, than using the Search feature, or restricting your reading to a few forums only.

It is already broken up, but rather than being broken up on PT, it is broken up on other online forums. If it is going to be broken up, I would prefer it here. Don't mistake my comments for this being something I wish for me. I can just as easily click on one of the other 3 or 4 cold hardy forums as I can here, and I do too, quite often.

This cold hardy thing is something I wish for PT. But don't kid yourselves into thinking that a cold hardy icon is gonna make a difference. Hiding behind a segmentation arguement wil not change that either. If this is the pergoative of the leadership, then that is fine. Just don't be in denial about it. I have made many friends on this board. I am not going anywhere. But this is a forum for sut-tropical and tropical palm growers The cold hardy folks will continue to move on. So be it.

Oh, and about being broken up, this board has already decided that if you take a picture of a palm in your own yard that is different than if you take one in a public garden, or on vacation and that must be in "Travel Logs." Not to mention the Spanish forum. So, as us southernors would say that being broken up dog don't hunt.

[LJG]

Again....what about us people on the edge of what is cold hardy and what is not? Where would we need to go? Here I am pushing the 9a envelope. Some on here say that I am not even 9a but 8b....yet this year I have had a 10a winter....so what do I do?.....like most on here pushing their zones to the max....we search out species that might just make it in a warm microclimate. Dypsis decipiens, C. alba's, L. saribus, A. cahune ......where do these palms fit in?.....cold hardy or not?

Don't make me have to switch back and forth between 2 sub-forums to try and get marginal info. Dean's idea is best IMO....create a cold hardy tag and be done with it. If people want to go to another forum to post Trachy and C. humilis threads thats fine, they are free to do so; but I think even these folks like to push their zones and can find threads that have palms that are marginal to them easily on PT with the search feature.

I would think Zone 9 and below would suffice. Seems to me at Zone 9 you have limited yourself greatly from what we in Zone 10 can plant. And there is no such thing as a 10a garden one year but a 9b the next. Use Zone 9 as described by definition. Your comment about letting people post elsewhere is exactly why the IPS is down in members and PT activity has not increased in terms of active participation in years. The goal is to get all palm fanciers to come here. Many of you seem to want to get into the weeds to avoid trying something new instead of taking an open mind to new things to be more inclusive. Would it really ruin your day if you had to click an extra link to read Cold Hardy and another for the normal section? If you don’t think you are a cold hardy grower, then don't post in it? Who will care? Continue about your normal PalmTalk life and stay out of the Cold hardy forum if you fancy.

[LJG]

Len - it may not be about breaking up PT (the Main Forum) - but that is what it would do. And even if I agreed with you, we would still be a long way in getting the others to agree with doing so.

I have no doubt and have witnessed in the past how hard it is to get people to think outside the box. They would rather stick to a status quo then risk some success with something new. I commend you for being in the middle all the time and handling it so well!

You mentioned not having an issue with topics over lapping, and just letting the members "work it out." But IMO, having some C-H topics in a C-H forum, and other C-H topics in Discussing Palms, seems to defeat the purpose.

Example: if we had a C-H Forum, and the recent topic "Plectocomia himalayana Propogation" was posted in "Discussing Palms" - should it stay there? If so, then what good is it doing the C-H crowd? And if it is moved, as you admitted - you and many others would never see it. Is it a "Discussing Palms" propagation topic, or a C-H topic?

Is it really going to ruin people's day if they click a thread in the general forum and find a cold hardy thread? Having been part of some very large forums over the last 15 years I can tell you cross posting will always take place. It happens now. I can find travel related threads in the general forum for example. If something is so blatant, do what you do now - move it. Bo and you seem to have a handle on that.

As far as your Plectocomia himalayana Propogation example, I guess you have to ask yourself if missing out on greater possible membership is worth a few cross post that can be moved.

But if kept in the Main Palm Forum, and it had a C-H tag and a Propagation tag attached, it would accomplish three objectives. That is, keep everyone together on the "same page," while also becoming part of a comprehensive Cold Hardy Category. In addition, it would also become part of a comprehensive Propagation Category - which BTW, has been proposed more than once for its own separate forum as well. In addition, topics about gardens like Dick's and Daryl's could have a Cold Hardy tag attached - because again, their gardens would be missed by a lot of people if posted in a C-H Forum, and vice versa.

Dean if what you are saying is people will miss out on threads because they are in the CF section then I argue those people don’t read a CH topic anyway.

On forums that make good use of tagging, this proves to be a more fluid and enjoyable way to move through related topics, than using the Search feature, or restricting your reading to a few forums only.

Dean, have an example?

Dean, while CH is not my cup of tea I want to see more members so I would like taking the chance to see if we can get more by adding a CH section. CH growers are a different breed. Just look how many site and forums are geared to it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardy_palms
http://www.hardiestpalms.com/ColdHardyPalmList.htm
http://www.hortworld.com/coldhardy.htm
http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/ - Has just as many active threads today as PT.
http://palmsnorth.com/forum/

Here is a site that list about 30 places you can go to discuss cold hardy related plant growing - http://zonedenial.com/

Can you show much the same for tropical growers? It just seems to me the IPS is missing out on including these passionate posters and possible new members for some silly reason to not want to add a separate section. I have no idea if the addition will attract new posters. Maybe it is implemented and it fails. We can certainly get the few CH posters that come here to go to other forums and recruit to the new PT CH forum to get things going.

Dean, I have said my piece so I won't comment further. Whatever you guys decide is fine with me. It won't change what I do here. I just hope people that make decisions can get past their opinion on how they like their PT and open up to the possibility a little change might add members and in the end help the IPS.

[PALM MOD]

First off - Thanks to all of you who have taken the time to post your opinions. I know it takes time and effort to organize your thoughts and do the quoting and proof reading, etc. I have read it all, and I have considered it all with an open mind. I can only assume the other committee members have done the same.

One thing that I learned very early on in this position is that if there are two ways to do something, and there always is, then a fair share of people are not going to approve of whatever decision is made. But to say that PT hasn't tried new things is to forget what things were like before Chat, before the Gallery, before a Donate Button, before a Spanish Forum, before an IPS Store, before a Directors forum - and I could go on. Some of those mentioned were asked for many times over a period of sometimes years before I/we relented, or I was instructed to create them.

I mention those because now I hear complaints that Chat is dead and the Gallery has never been used. The Directors don't use their forum, and the guy who set up the IPS logo and store walked away from it, leaving it abandoned. The For Sale section was going to be covered by a moderator, but that is no longer the case. And the Spanish Forum reminds me of this Cold Hardy Forum request. It would bring those from the foreign language palm forums here. It was pushed for years relentlessly. So we gave in, and now what - we have another fairly useless feature not panning out as promised, and no moderator to be found. So I know it is easy to think that adding one more new thing to watch over and moderate is no big deal. And if you think finding someone to moderate things is easy, just ask for volunteers and see how many step forward. And when they do, they are gone after the initial excitement has passed.

So, rest assured that I always keep an open mind and always appreciate and consider well presented feedback. So I would ask that you all do the same as I try to come up with a solution both camps can live with. But be careful that you don't do what you are accusing others of doing by claiming it won't work before it is tried.

We have a volunteer who is already working on tagging all topics that would be of interest to the cold-hardy crew. It will be a lot of work - as would moving all cold hardy topics to a cold hardy forum. But it won't disrupt what is already in place. Will you give the volunteer the courtesy of an open mind, and wait until he has something for us all to look at and test drive before declaring it a failure? More on this later.

[LJG]

One thing that I learned very early on in this position is that if there are two ways to do something, and there always is, then a fair share of people are not going to approve of whatever decision is made. But to say that PT hasn't tried new things is to forget what things were like before Chat, before the Gallery, before a Donate Button, before a Spanish Forum, before an IPS Store, before a Directors forum - and I could go on. Some of those mentioned were asked for many times over a period of sometimes years before I/we relented, or I was instructed to create them.

I mention those because now I hear complaints that Chat is dead and the Gallery has never been used. The Directors don't use their forum, and the guy who set up the IPS logo and store walked away from it, leaving it abandoned. The For Sale section was going to be covered by a moderator, but that is no longer the case. And the Spanish Forum reminds me of this Cold Hardy Forum request. It would bring those from the foreign language palm forums here. It was pushed for years relentlessly. So we gave in, and now what - we have another fairly useless feature not panning out as promised, and no moderator to be found. So I know it is easy to think that adding one more new thing to watch over and moderate is no big deal. And if you think finding someone to moderate things is easy, just ask for volunteers and see how many step forward. And when they do, they are gone after the initial excitement has passed.

Dean, you are starting to sound like a glass is half empty kind of guy. Money has passed through the Donate Button that never would have if it hadn't been there. Chat and Gallery enhance the site and get use. Not sure how it would be considered a way to attract people anyway - it is more about making PT more sticky. The IPS logo and store guy walked away? Who vetted him? The Spanish Forum is a good example of trying something and if it fails it could easily be shut down. If it isn't working, why not close it? I would love to find out why it failed. It started off with a bang then lost traction. I wonder why? Maybe it was too late and the already existing Spanish only palm forums were just too sticky? Might be the same results with Cold Hardy if it were implemented. Never know.

Dean, is it really that hard to find a few volunteers to help you moderate? I see some posters hanging around here all day. They couldn't help?

Oh yeah, I lied about not commenting further.

[PALM MOD]

One thing that I learned very early on in this position is that if there are two ways to do something, and there always is, then a fair share of people are not going to approve of whatever decision is made. But to say that PT hasn't tried new things is to forget what things were like before Chat, before the Gallery, before a Donate Button, before a Spanish Forum, before an IPS Store, before a Directors forum - and I could go on. Some of those mentioned were asked for many times over a period of sometimes years before I/we relented, or I was instructed to create them.

I mention those because now I hear complaints that Chat is dead and the Gallery has never been used. The Directors don't use their forum, and the guy who set up the IPS logo and store walked away from it, leaving it abandoned. The For Sale section was going to be covered by a moderator, but that is no longer the case. And the Spanish Forum reminds me of this Cold Hardy Forum request. It would bring those from the foreign language palm forums here. It was pushed for years relentlessly. So we gave in, and now what - we have another fairly useless feature not panning out as promised, and no moderator to be found. So I know it is easy to think that adding one more new thing to watch over and moderate is no big deal. And if you think finding someone to moderate things is easy, just ask for volunteers and see how many step forward. And when they do, they are gone after the initial excitement has passed.

Dean, is it really that hard to find a few volunteers to help you moderate? I see some posters hanging around here all day. They couldn't help?

I thought you would be one who would understand that volunteer Mods and Committee Members bail as soon as they realize they are sitting on a hot seat.