Growing palms in Hawaiian soil? What is silty clay loam?

[Breadfruit Bill]

I know I haven't been on Palmtalk in a dog's age and this is probably a really stupid question to bring to the table but here goes...

What is it like growing palms in "silty clay loam"?

I have grown in pure sand and coral in South Florida for so long, I realized I know little about other soil types. When I made my own soil media in the shadehouse I used alot of organic material but amended with super high drainage materials like perlite, sand, and crushed lava. If this farm deal actually goes thru (late to mid February) I realize I will be dealing with a whole new growing spectrum... So that's where the question has come from.

Does Hilo's soil profile require amendments to allow for better drainage for palms since it rains so much on the windward side?

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/soil/st_soils/hi_soil.htm

I'm sure there are other parts of the world that have similar soil conditions so anyone feel free to comment... Any advice would be appreciated!

[mike in kurtistown]

Bill, I'm no expert on soils but I am growing palms in Puna District near Hilo and I will offer some very brief comments. First, there are several soil types in the Hilo area. My guess is that it has to do with the type of volcanic deposition and the amount of time since it was deposited. Some people in recently deposited volcanic areas (parts of Leilani Estates, Hawaiian Paradise Park, Kapoho) have no soil at all, so require tons of black cinder to grow things in, examples being Bo's old garden and the Sullivan garden.

The Paneawa Zoo has red brown soil. My area and areas farther up Hwy 11 have dark brown soils. In Mt. View and Glenwood are found deep, rockless soils that should be like heaven for growers. But it isn't, because it does not drain well. One cycad grower in the area has to do the mounds of cinder approach in order to get the drainage that he needs.

In Kurtistown, my area and former sugarcane land, I have about 50% rock in my soil (my guess) ranging from pebble-size to boulder-size, and the soil grades to something like cinder a foot or two below the surface. That, and my hillside location, gives me fair drainage. But the soil varies even just on my 8 acres. I've planted over a hundred species and, so far, almost everything is growing and nothing is complaining, although I did lose one of my Carpoxylons and a Dypsis saintelucei to budrot.

This area has in common with south Florida that the heavy rainfall leaches magnesium and potassium out of the soil. So fertilizers are needed. Some make use of Kmag. You can tell who is not doing it by the yellowing of their foxtails and other species.

My recommendation is to come out and take a look yourself. Talk to other local growers. Don't just take what the real estate brokers say on faith.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Mike I completely agree with your recommendation to look in person; so much so that we spent the better part of January on island doing just that. We honed in on a parcel (we are in escrow currently ) that is some 10-15 north of Hilo. It soil is deep (a neighbor told us 10 feet!) and sounds more like the stuff you mentioned at Paneawa Zoo (maybe that also helps answer my question about growing palms in clayish soil, they do have quite the collection!)

When I stuck my hand into the soil at the farm I pulled out some purple potatoes that were leftover from the prior farming operation! But more on topic and descriptively the soil was red, almost seemed to stain the skin and balled up easily in my fist. Though there was a nice crumbly soil texture in the first couple inches, deeper it seemed to be much more clayish with small bits of silt and volcanic type pebble and rubble. Maybe I can get away with sheet mulching and topdressing with organic matter to improve the structure? It is much more dense than the sand and coral I'm used to. Now that I'm back in SoFla questioning every step of the way maybe I'm just getting cold feet; This is all very exciting!

Kmag, you say!? Roger that. A local farmer told me we would need to lime regularly also as there is no calcium on the island.

Are there tree services who would dump woodchips? Or maybe a green waste place somewhere I can bing my chipper to get free mulch?

[Dr. George]

Yes, the County of HI has a free mulch/green waste recycling program: HI County Mulch

Scroll down to the section "East Hawai‘i Organics Facility (EHOF) Customer Procedures" for info on the Hilo area site.

On the West side, we bring in mulch by the dump truckful: Mulch Topic

Welcome to paradise! - gmp

[Bill Austin]

Bill good luck with your parcel they have free mulch here you just have to pay for hauling or do it yourself.

[Dypsisdean]

We could never have enough palm nuts here - be sure to let us know the instant escrow closes.

[bgl]

Bill,

Great to hear that things are happening and best of luck with the parcel that you're in escrow on. I know nothing about soils north of Hilo except the obvious - there are a number of great gardens, including great palm gardens. You shouldn't have any problems, and I seriously doubt you have to do any soil amendments. Keep us posted on your progress and don't hold back on the questions!

Bo-Göran

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Bill,

Glad to see you make the move we were talking about. When you close you will have to post pics and descriptions.

I have a feeling you will be planting food crops too.

[_Keith]

Bill, I am a long way from Hawaii, but my soils are also categorized as silty clay loam. It is extremely fertile and so long as it has not been compacted, internal drainage is excellent. When my budget got tight once, I didn't fertilize at all for 2 years in a row and the plants looked no worse for the wear. Once a plant is established you rarely need supplemental water even in the worst drought.

On the down side, once it does get really dry, water will literally bead on top of it. It also cracks when dry so the water beads, then runs off through the cracks. It takes a really good rain to get things right again. But like I said it is only tough when you are getting plants established.

Not sure in Hawaii if you will have to deal with the dry part. But you will love silty clay loam soil.

[BS Man about Palms]

It will be cool to bump the Palm Loving population of Hawaii by 3... good luck to you and April and thee little one..

[mike in kurtistown]

Bill, I neglected to remark on the clayey aspect. My soil is crumbly when it hasn't rained in a while, but clayey when it is wet, particularly in the top couple of inches where grasses have been growing. And you need to scrub your hands and arms after you have been working in the stuff, so yes it's clayey. I use dolomitic lime whenever I fertilize. Something about degraded volcanic rock keeps it from having much calcium. When we have an occasional dry spell, I can lose underpotted palms in my shadehouse, but I would never worry about an in-ground specimen. Growers using built up mounds of black cinder DO worry about dry spells.

[Breadfruit Bill]

Thanks for the link Dr. George! I recalled hearing something about that but couldn't remember the specifics! I hope there is someone who runs a tree service nearby and I can get their byproducts and save myself some of that labor and fuel Bill Austin reminded me about!

Bo and Dean, I'll absolutely update on detail once the deal goes thru... I've already got a comprehensive plan that includes getting palms in the ground when we arrive and can't wait to get started playin in the dirt!

Geraldo, There are definately gonna be food crops. We chose a parcel that borders a highway to a major tourist destination and a large part of the farm plan is to have some sort of tourist destination that will include food products, a store, and maybe some kind of self guided exhibit that pertains to permaculture style farming. I can tell you this about the land; it's low enough elevation that we can grow mangosteens and I am really excited at the prospects of what all we will be able to grow.

Keith, Good call! I forgot about the soil in LA, very similar. Different color (ya'll have that muddy brown Mississippi river color, right?) but extremely similar consistancy and texture. maybe even a bit more course that the sandy delta area.

Bill, Make that 4 palm lovers... Catherine (Katie) Lane DeBoe is due sometime mid to late April!

Sounds like the same stuff Mike, I didn't realize there was such a decent soil base in Kurtistown! The lots I looked at (which seem like they never come up for sale) only had 0-6 inches of soil. That was another area we looked seriously at; somewhere around Hina, N Ala, and Kukui Camp Roads. Thanks for the advice!

[bgl]

Bill,

Sounds really exciting! Might that be in the Akaka area? In any case, and an issue that you addressed indirectly - elevation. Approximately at what elevation is the property? As you probably know, this is a very important issue here and will determine amount of rainfall and obviously also what you can grow. A little bit up, but not too high up, and you will be able to grow just about anything and everything.

Bo-Göran

[Kim]

Well well, lots of very exciting news in the DeBoe family! Congratulations on the impending new arrival and the new property! When the time is right, I'll definitely have to look in on you. Your plans sound very fun and very ambitious, hope it all works out for you even better than you imagine. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

[realarch]

Good luck Bill, the Hamakua coast is one spectacular place to have property. You can always contact CTAHR, (College of Tropical Agriculture and Human

Resources), for more info concerning your specific soil type.

The green waste drop off and mulch pick up is in currently in transition as they are changing their procedure. It used to be so easy to drop green waste off

and then just drive a few yards and load up with mulch. Soon you will have to weigh in and out for both waste drop off and mulch pick-up. Since there is only

one scale the wait time can sometimes be 15-20 minutes. I imagine this is just a precursor for a mulch fee. Probably easier for you to have it delivered.

The good thing though is better monitoring of what people drop off in their green waste.

I have friends who have cleared some land for a new build and the mound of wood chips from a few 'junk' trees can be as high and wide as a house.

Ha, if all goes well, you'll be laying awake at night scheming on where you can plant all those new palms.

Tim

[Breadfruit Bill]

It's super exciting!!!

This is gonna be a mile or so away!

Bo-Göran, The truth is I wasn't expecting this to happen for at least another 4-5 years and then another couple more for construction, but after a couple of life's changes with my grandparents and parents (parents are moving with the family now as well!) it seems our schedule has been ramped up to a much shorter time period. You guessed it, Honomu (we had it mowed about 12 days ago if anyone finds themselves in the area and wants to nose around). And my highest elevation guestimate was 582' and the lowest somewhere around 474' (but the low point is just a dip at the northeast corner, land mostly stays above 500'. It seemed like the rains rolled down off Mauna Kea just before sundown everyday I was there; that amount of rainfall will require some structure over rain sensitive veggies but should be great for hearty tropicals and ornamentals. And I figured the sun path of the land, but in only a couple days of visiting the island it's hard to tell where the sun will be during the different times of the year (glad we visited while the sun was fairly low in the sky). I hope I did my homework well enough and anticipate we will have landed at an awesome plot. I'm watching my budget get ripped thru as I plan this venture and may have to liberate some seeds from fellow palm gardener's mature plants :winkie: to get my collection going again. The focus of our budget is land, housing, and food crops (over 1200 productive plants, focusing in perenial tree crops) and their supports plants (overstory, chop n drop species, groundcover, etc.) in that order(maybe I can squeeze a John Deere Gator with a Deluxe Glass Cab in before food crops! ); then comes the fun things like ornamentals etc.... Bring on the Dypsis, Licuala, and Joeys!

Gotta get one of these bad boyz!

Thanks for the well wishes Kim. As exciting as all this new lifestyle in Hawaii is going to be, Katie is still the biggest event with us. It's very exciting to be having a girl (no coincidence that we are moving to the country and I'm getting a shotgun) and we are so thankful that everything is going smoothly so far with her. We are looking forward to having visitors, it will be nice to put faces with names! I am currently writing up a multiyear farm lease for a potato/ginger farmer in exchange for fencing and some land preparation, so it will be a few months beffore we make the jump.

Tim, Thanks for the good wishes in the venture. I was reading that whole weigh station thing on the green waste facilty yesterday and had the same premonition about mulch fee. I'm definately hoping for a nearby tree service that will deliver mulch at little or no cost. If I had my druthers I would just drop 18" across the whole 20 acres! I have heard horror stories about ants and other little goodies that come from the free mulch place. Sometimes it's better to just be patient and grow your own... And you had better believe the long tireless nights began about 4 years ago! We aren't playin around!

[bgl]

Bill,

That sounds absolutely perfect and Honomu is a great little town. I love stopping by at Ed's Bakery when I pass through! And that elevation should be excellent. I can certainly understand how excited you and April must be about the move and your daughter, and everything happening at about the same time! Must have taken quite a bit of planning! Looking forward to seeing you all in a few months - or whenever it works out for you!

Bo-Göran

[Dypsisdean]

Bill,

Sounds like you have done your homework, and I am hoping that the pieces fall in place for you. It sounds like a great plan.

The only advice I can offer, since you seem to have all your bases covered, is get that Gator. They are a great workhorse, and I would be lost without mine. I have the 4x4, dumper, a winch, roof, bed liner, brush guards, etc - all well worth it. But I don't think I would want the glass cab, for a variety of reasons. And the diesel I couldn't afford - but if used as a true farm vehicle, it is probably worth it. There is rarely a day I don't use it and am thankful I have it.

[DoomsDave]

Wow!

Keep us posted, and get all the horsepower you can afford on your power equipment. Even I know that much . . .

[Dr. George]

Gator is good - Tractor first.

Check with Mauna Loa macnuts for availability of hulls - work great for mulch and no worries about the foreign materials, invasive species or critters sometimes found in County mulch. Mauna Loa may have a contract to sell the hulls to someone, but can't hurt to ask.

We have learned a lot in our almost 10 year farming adventure. If you want to chat or if we can be any assistance, pop me a PM.

gmp

[RainForestt Robert]

Bill, from the first time you visited Hawaii you have raved about the island. Glad to see that at last the dream is within your grasp.

Good luck to you and April.

Robert

[palmislandRandy]

Woo hoo, lets go visit Bill & April Let us know when the guest house is finished. I'm happy for you both.

[LauraAnu]

Hello William,

Congratulations on all the great news. It must be exciting with all the impending changes. I thought about you the other day when in the garden checking on some snake beans as you introduced them to me.

Keep us posted. Hopefully I will get to visit your operation in Hawaii sometime

Laura

[Donald Sanders]

Aloha and congratulations on your excellent choice of Honomu here on the Big Island. You are always welcome to come by and visit me in Kona and of course you can have a cutting from anything in my garden.

Good luck and I hope to see you when you get settled.

Don Sanders

[Breadfruit Bill]

Thanks to all for the well wishes!

Just thought I'd post a couple pics of the our most recent trip there... not much to show. I ended up having the flu and laying on the couch for the majority of our trip...

This was our rental pad in Hakalau

And the gulch was right around the corner. Sugar plantation ruins from the docking facility were pretty cool!

[Breadfruit Bill]

I didn't do a great job of taking pics since this was something of a buisiness trip but we ate great food while on island. We ate at Miyo's new location, Hilo Siam (best panang in town) and of course got our loco on at Cafe 100.

Mostly we ate fresh foods at the house (aside from the malasadas we got a Tex Drive In, on our way to JJ's country Store for some ono kine steaks)

Got Poke?

It was rambutan season

There were chickens under our house

Yumm!

[Breadfruit Bill]

We are gonna live here one day!

The only other pic for the most part is this good luck critter

[bgl]

Bill,

Thanks for the great pictures. And sorry to hear about the flu. But I'm sure next time will be better and this must be extremely exciting for you and April. Good luck with the move!

Bo-Göran

[JasonD]

Congratulations on the move and family developments! It's great to see diversified agriculture going into Hamakua. Hawai'i seems poised to reduce food imports with new farming initiatives.

My cousin moved to Laupahoehoe not long ago and loves the community and lifestyle.