Phonetic spelling: Name of the day

[edric]

There must be someone out there, that's good at Latin pronunciation, and phonetic spelling, first an example, then one of the names I have no phonetic spelling for, no guessing, you need to be fairly certain, for other examples see the A, B, and beginning of the C section in Palmpedia, Ed

Acoelorrhaphe (ah-see-loe-RAY-fee) wrightii (RITE-ee-eye)

Carludovica drudei

http://www.palmpedia.net/wiki/Category:PALM_GENERA

[Alberto]

One thing all americans (english speaking?) pronunciate wrongly is the ''ii'' at the end of latin names.

It´s wrong to say RITE-ee-eye ( wrightii) Correct is RITE-ee. Only one "ee" sound.

[Alberto]

Not sure but I think: Carludovica drudei - Car-loo-dô-WEE-kuh DROO-day

because this how you say it in Portuguese. I put the words Carludovica drudei on google translate and latin pronunciation and the pronunciationwas exactly how you say it in Portuguese.

[edric]

Not sure but I think: Carludovica drudei - Car-loo-dô-WEE-kuh DROO-day

because this how you say it in Portuguese. I put the words Carludovica drudei on google translate and latin pronunciation and the pronunciationwas exactly how you say it in Portuguese.

Thank you Alberto, that's great, another new name in the morning, Ed

[DoomsDave]

sorry, never mind

[edric]

Next name, thanks, Ed

Acrocomia (ak-ro-KOH-mee-uh)

antioquensis

[Phoenikakias]

There must be someone out there, that's good at Latin pronunciation, and phonetic spelling, first an example, then one of the names I have no phonetic spelling for, no guessing, you need to be fairly certain, for other examples see the A, B, and beginning of the C section in Palmpedia, Ed

Acoelorrhaphe (ah-see-loe-RAY-fee) wrightii (RITE-ee-eye)

Carludovica drudei

http://www.palmpedia...ory:PALM_GENERA

As a Greek I can guarantee that the 'C' in Acoelorrhaphe is pronoumced like a 'K', because the word is greek ΚΟΙΛΟΣ (in latin alphabet coelos) meaning hollow.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Seeing how Latin is a "dead" language, meaning there is nobody who speaks it as their native tongue today, there are bound to be lots of disagreements about pronunciations. Latin was spoken for something like 1000 plus years (1500?), and there were several evolved "styles" of pronunciations that evolved over those years. Are we talking about Latin circa 500BC or 1AD or 1500AD or today?

[edric]

I See, I did know that the books say that in many instances there is more than one accepted pronunciation of some of the names, Dean said he new how to pronounce Acoelorrhaphe, what say ye Dean! Ed

[Phoenikakias]

How dou you pronounce Acanthophoenix or Acrocomia because ΑΚΑΝΘΟΣ (trnsl spine ot thorn) is a greek word like ΑΚΡΟΝ or KOMH. Simiarly ΚΟΙΛΟΣ it is not a latin word but only a greek one.

[edric]

How dou you pronounce Acanthophoenix or Acrocomia because ΑΚΑΝΘΟΣ (trnsl spine ot thorn) is a greek word like ΑΚΡΟΝ or KOMH. Simiarly ΚΟΙΛΟΣ it is not a latin word but only a greek one.

please see post number 6 for Acrocomia, Acanthophoenix (a-kanth'-o-FEE-nix), Ed

[doranakandawatta]

Nice to see greek letters on Palmtalk! it reminds me the school, nice memories!

But I am not able to read that lovely writing: Tamil on the top, Singhalese below the smile!

[edric]

Next name, thanks, Ed

Acrocomia (ak-ro-KOH-mee-uh)

antioquensis ( )

[Hammer]

Toe MAY toe, toe MAH toe.

[Dypsisdean]

I See, I did know that the books say that in many instances there is more than one accepted pronunciation of some of the names, Dean said he new how to pronounce Acoelorrhaphe, what say ye Dean! Ed

You are mistaken Ed. The only comment I have made regarding Acoelorrhaphe was that I found it one of the most "unenjoyable" names to pronounce. But if forced, I would say "Paurotis" - much easier.

[edric]

I See, I did know that the books say that in many instances there is more than one accepted pronunciation of some of the names, Dean said he new how to pronounce Acoelorrhaphe, what say ye Dean! Ed

You are mistaken Ed. The only comment I have made regarding Acoelorrhaphe was that I found it one of the most "unenjoyable" names to pronounce. But if forced, I would say "Paurotis" - much easier.

Yes dean, That is what you said, I assumed you knew how to. The pronunciation I have provided is from the University of Florida, but I am amending all names ending in ii, I am certain Alberto knows what he's talking about, Ed

[Trópico]

I don't see the difficulty pronouncing these latin names,

A-ce-lo-ra-fe

an-tio-ken-sis

trust me, I did it, but you couldn't hear me

[tjwalters]

Everyone here should own a copy of the "Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms" by Donald J. Borrow - a required reference for my college (biology) taxonomy courses. According to it, "all vowels in scientific names are pronounced" and "a vowel at the end of a word has the long sound, except when it is a; a final a has an uh sound." So, the correct pronunciation of "wrightii" would be RITE-ee-eye, not RITE-ee. Regarding consonants, "when c is followed by ae, e, oe, i or y, it has the soft (s) sound." So, the correct pronunciation of Aceoloraphe would be ay-see-loe-RAY-fee (or maybe ay-see-loe-RAH-fee), not ay-kee-loe-RAY-fee. (IMHO, of course ).

There is literature available on the correct pronunciation of Latin, and more specifically, scientific, names. I'm not so sure it's a toe-MAY-toe vs. toe-MAH-toe issue.

[Alberto]

Next name, thanks, Ed

Acrocomia (ak-ro-KOH-mee-uh)

antioquensis (un-tee-ô-KWEN-sees)

[paulgila]

Everyone here should own a copy of the "Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms" by Donald J. Borrow - a required reference for my college (biology) taxonomy courses. According to it, "all vowels in scientific names are pronounced" and "a vowel at the end of a word has the long sound, except when it is a; a final a has an uh sound." So, the correct pronunciation of "wrightii" would be RITE-ee-eye, not RITE-ee. Regarding consonants, "when c is followed by ae, e, oe, i or y, it has the soft (s) sound." So, the correct pronunciation of Aceoloraphe would be ay-see-loe-RAY-fee (or maybe ay-see-loe-RAH-fee), not ay-kee-loe-RAY-fee. (IMHO, of course ).

There is literature available on the correct pronunciation of Latin, and more specifically, scientific, names. I'm not so sure it's a toe-MAY-toe vs. toe-MAH-toe issue.

so the same would hold true for p.roebelinii--it would have the "-ee-eye" at the end?

[Phoenikakias]

Everyone here should own a copy of the "Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms" by Donald J. Borrow - a required reference for my college (biology) taxonomy courses. According to it, "all vowels in scientific names are pronounced" and "a vowel at the end of a word has the long sound, except when it is a; a final a has an uh sound." So, the correct pronunciation of "wrightii" would be RITE-ee-eye, not RITE-ee. Regarding consonants, "when c is followed by ae, e, oe, i or y, it has the soft (s) sound." So, the correct pronunciation of Aceoloraphe would be ay-see-loe-RAY-fee (or maybe ay-see-loe-RAH-fee), not ay-kee-loe-RAY-fee. (IMHO, of course ).

There is literature available on the correct pronunciation of Latin, and more specifically, scientific, names. I'm not so sure it's a toe-MAY-toe vs. toe-MAH-toe issue.

So how is C pronounced in Cyphophoenix, and Cyphosperma and Cyrtostachys? Cypho is the script in latin alphabet of the greek word ΚΥΦΟΣ meaning tumour and Cyrto is the script in latin alphabet of the greek word ΚΥΡΤΟΣ meaning arched. Both words as well as ΚΟΙΛΟΣ have never been adopted in the latin language, they only get written in latin alphabet because this script is in use. And in greek a K is always a K.

[tjwalters]

Everyone here should own a copy of the "Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms" by Donald J. Borrow - a required reference for my college (biology) taxonomy courses. According to it, "all vowels in scientific names are pronounced" and "a vowel at the end of a word has the long sound, except when it is a; a final a has an uh sound." So, the correct pronunciation of "wrightii" would be RITE-ee-eye, not RITE-ee. Regarding consonants, "when c is followed by ae, e, oe, i or y, it has the soft (s) sound." So, the correct pronunciation of Aceoloraphe would be ay-see-loe-RAY-fee (or maybe ay-see-loe-RAH-fee), not ay-kee-loe-RAY-fee. (IMHO, of course ).

There is literature available on the correct pronunciation of Latin, and more specifically, scientific, names. I'm not so sure it's a toe-MAY-toe vs. toe-MAH-toe issue.

so the same would hold true for p.roebelinii--it would have the "-ee-eye" at the end?

Should hold true for any scientific name. ree-bell-inn-ee-eye, I would suspect. When it comes to species that are named after persons, I think the "person" part of the name is pronounced as the proper name would be pronounced. In this case, though, definitely the ee-eye at the end. (...if I'm interpreting the rules correctly.)

[tjwalters]

Everyone here should own a copy of the "Dictionary of Word Roots and Combining Forms" by Donald J. Borrow - a required reference for my college (biology) taxonomy courses. According to it, "all vowels in scientific names are pronounced" and "a vowel at the end of a word has the long sound, except when it is a; a final a has an uh sound." So, the correct pronunciation of "wrightii" would be RITE-ee-eye, not RITE-ee. Regarding consonants, "when c is followed by ae, e, oe, i or y, it has the soft (s) sound." So, the correct pronunciation of Aceoloraphe would be ay-see-loe-RAY-fee (or maybe ay-see-loe-RAH-fee), not ay-kee-loe-RAY-fee. (IMHO, of course ).

There is literature available on the correct pronunciation of Latin, and more specifically, scientific, names. I'm not so sure it's a toe-MAY-toe vs. toe-MAH-toe issue.

So how is C pronounced in Cyphophoenix, and Cyphosperma and Cyrtostachys? Cypho is the script in latin alphabet of the greek word ΚΥΦΟΣ meaning tumour and Cyrto is the script in latin alphabet of the greek word ΚΥΡΤΟΣ meaning arched. Both words as well as ΚΟΙΛΟΣ have never been adopted in the latin language, they only get written in latin alphabet because this script is in use. And in greek a K is always a K.

Should all be soft c - according to the book. It is how I've always pronounced them. The book covers all (well, most of) the roots and their origins.

[Trópico]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names? The way most of my english speaking friends pronounce the palm scientific names is very different from mine, to the point I need to ask for clarification sometimes. So in the scientific community, is the true latin pronunciation the correct one, whichever it is?

Alberto- I believe the "u" in antioquensis is silent. antioquensis = "from Antioquia (Colombia)", which has a silent "u", like "Antioqueña" which is "(fem) from Antioquia". This is not a latin name at all, but "latinized" at the end with "-ensis", which means "pertaining to", “originating in". Which leads to the next problem: most of the botanical names are not entirely latin, and some are derived from local names or peoples' last names which can be almost any language. What to do in these cases?

[paulgila]

frank--ideally the names should be pronounced the same,whether the speakers language is english or not,do you agree?

[Trópico]

Hey, I came across this thread somewhere out there (if I may post, otherwise, remove): http://latindiscussion.com/forum/latin/pronouncing-this-crab-species.15186/

It kind of settles it for me; am I correct?

Also, in the same site I found the (latin) pronunciation for the suffix -ii which is a short + long i (I'm talking pre Great Vowel Shift), and is what Alberto said earlier. http://latindiscussion.com/forum/attachments/claudii-mp3.145

[tjwalters]

frank--ideally the names should be pronounced the same,whether the speakers language is english or not,do you agree?

I would think that to be true. Science is language independent.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/latinlanguage/qt/latinpronounce.htm

Here is a web site that states there are at least 4 ways to pronounce Latin words:

1. the reconstructed ancient Roman,
2. the northern Continental European,
3. Church Latin and
4. the "English Method."

He provides the following chart of how to pronounce Latin (Julius Caesar) according to each:

• YOO-lee-us KYE-sahr (reconstructed ancient Roman)
• YOO-lee-us (T)SAY-sahr (northern Continental Europe)

YOO-lee-us CHAY-sahr ("Church Latin" in Italy)

JOO-lee-us SEE-zer ("English method")

The northern continental is particularly recommended for scientific terms. Covington notes that it is the pronunciation scientific greats, like Copernicus and Kepler, used. The English method is used for names from mythology and history; however, it is the least like the way the Romans would have pronounced their language.

This is only four. When speaking to people who speak Latin based languages, their pronunciations, inflections and accents are all different from each other, to my ears anyway. On top of that, the "reconstructed" ancient Roman is only a guestimate, put together by scholars not too long ago. Binomials are Latinized names often borrowed from Greek and other sources. Local place names and people's names abound. Many of these names have no corresponding spelling in Latin, so an approximation is made. For instance, Julius Caesar, there was no "J" in ancient times, that letter was invented after Latin went out of style.

I say that there are too many versions, right or wrong, and to really know what they are talking about, tell them to write it down.

[tjwalters]

I provided what I believe to be a credible, authoritative reference guide specifically targeted to the pronunciation of scientific terms/names. This was a recommended text for science courses at the University of Maryland. I don't know if it still is, but I know of no reason why it would not be. I offer it only as a possible resource for those who may be interested.

[sarasota alex]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names?

I think you nailed it. The reading rules for the actual Latin are very different from English. For a native English speaker it would be hard to learn to read "from scratch", so the names are pronounced and taught similarly to how they would be in English. Makes it more natural to read thing as they would be read in English. It would be very unnatural for a native English speaker to pronounce Sah-bahl mee-nohr (Sabal minor), Y-oo-bay-ah hee-len-sis (Jubaea chilensis), or P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix (Pseudophoenix), the way it would be pronounced by an actual Latin speaker.

[_Keith]

This is a good thread, but get me close enough and it is all good. No need for nerds to argue over the nuances.

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

I provided what I believe to be a credible, authoritative reference guide specifically targeted to the pronunciation of scientific terms/names. This was a recommended text for science courses at the University of Maryland. I don't know if it still is, but I know of no reason why it would not be. I offer it only as a possible resource for those who may be interested.

Tom, you are right. I think that is the book I was supposed to buy in skool, but I could not afford it at the time.

[Phoenikakias]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names?

I think you nailed it. The reading rules for the actual Latin are very different from English. For a native English speaker it would be hard to learn to read "from scratch", so the names are pronounced and taught similarly to how they would be in English. Makes it more natural to read thing as they would be read in English. It would be very unnatural for a native English speaker to pronounce Sah-bahl mee-nohr (Sabal minor), Y-oo-bay-ah hee-len-sis (Jubaea chilensis), or P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix (Pseudophoenix), the way it would be pronounced by an actual Latin speaker.

Pseudophoenix is pronounced P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix?!?! Why not pronaounce this from greek origined combinaton of vocals (eu) like in Europe, or in Eleusis, since the pronounciation is different in the english language of the very same combination in those words?

[sarasota alex]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names?

I think you nailed it. The reading rules for the actual Latin are very different from English. For a native English speaker it would be hard to learn to read "from scratch", so the names are pronounced and taught similarly to how they would be in English. Makes it more natural to read thing as they would be read in English. It would be very unnatural for a native English speaker to pronounce Sah-bahl mee-nohr (Sabal minor), Y-oo-bay-ah hee-len-sis (Jubaea chilensis), or P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix (Pseudophoenix), the way it would be pronounced by an actual Latin speaker.

Pseudophoenix is pronounced P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix?!?! Why not pronaounce this from greek origined combinaton of vocals (eu) like in Europe, or in Eleusis, since the pronounciation is different in the english language of the very same combination in those words?

That's basically what I was trying to express with "ay-oo" maybe wasn't the best way to do it. I'm not familiar with Greek pronunciation, but I think we are saying the same thing. The way you would read "eu" in modern Italian for example.

[Alberto]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names?

I think you nailed it. The reading rules for the actual Latin are very different from English. For a native English speaker it would be hard to learn to read "from scratch", so the names are pronounced and taught similarly to how they would be in English. Makes it more natural to read thing as they would be read in English. It would be very unnatural for a native English speaker to pronounce Sah-bahl mee-nohr (Sabal minor), Y-oo-bay-ah hee-len-sis (Jubaea chilensis), or P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix (Pseudophoenix), the way it would be pronounced by an actual Latin speaker.

Pseudophoenix is pronounced P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix?!?! Why not pronaounce this from greek origined combinaton of vocals (eu) like in Europe, or in Eleusis, since the pronounciation is different in the english language of the very same combination in those words?

That's basically what I was trying to express with "ay-oo" maybe wasn't the best way to do it. I'm not familiar with Greek pronunciation, but I think we are saying the same thing. The way you would read "eu" in modern Italian for example.

There is not a sound that is similar to the sound "eu'' in portuguese (and I think also in latin and greek?) like Europa, pseudo, feudo

I think P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix is the closest I also could come in writing it in English monosylabs .

Yes, in Portuguese I read: Sah BAHL MEE-nor, it´s the natural way for me to pronounce it. :-)

Pronunciation

http://translate.google.com.br/#pt/nl/Eu%20%20%20%20eu%20%20%20eu%20%20meu%20%20%20%20%20meu%20%20%20europa%20europa%20europa%20%20sabal%20minor%20%20%20%20sabal%20minor%20%20%20%20sabal%20minor

[edric]

One thing all americans (english speaking?) pronunciate wrongly is the ''ii'' at the end of latin names.

It´s wrong to say RITE-ee-eye ( wrightii) Correct is RITE-ee. Only one "ee" sound.

Hi Alberto, as stubborn as I am I just wish I'd listened to you in the beginning, I am in the process of making all the necessary changes in Palmpedia, to the phonetic spelling at present, thank you for your help on this subject, Ed

[Phoenikakias]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names?

I think you nailed it. The reading rules for the actual Latin are very different from English. For a native English speaker it would be hard to learn to read "from scratch", so the names are pronounced and taught similarly to how they would be in English. Makes it more natural to read thing as they would be read in English. It would be very unnatural for a native English speaker to pronounce Sah-bahl mee-nohr (Sabal minor), Y-oo-bay-ah hee-len-sis (Jubaea chilensis), or P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix (Pseudophoenix), the way it would be pronounced by an actual Latin speaker.

Pseudophoenix is pronounced P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix?!?! Why not pronaounce this from greek origined combinaton of vocals (eu) like in Europe, or in Eleusis, since the pronounciation is different in the english language of the very same combination in those words?

That's basically what I was trying to express with "ay-oo" maybe wasn't the best way to do it. I'm not familiar with Greek pronunciation, but I think we are saying the same thing. The way you would read "eu" in modern Italian for example.

There is not a sound that is similar to the sound "eu'' in portuguese (and I think also in latin and greek?) like Europa, pseudo, feudo

I think P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix is the closest I also could come in writing it in English monosylabs .

Yes, in Portuguese I read: Sah BAHL MEE-nor, it´s the natural way for me to pronounce it. :-)

Pronunciation

http://translate.google.com.br/#pt/nl/Eu%20%20%20%20eu%20%20%20eu%20%20meu%20%20%20%20%20meu%20%20%20europa%20europa%20europa%20%20sabal%20minor%20%20%20%20sabal%20minor%20%20%20%20sabal%20minor

The eu combination is a diphthong or gliding vowel in the greek language and it actually is the Achilles heel of all theories originating from western european scholars about the presumed pronunciation of greek words in the antiquity. Germans insist on oee, English on eeoo or yoo, Italians on ay-oo. So whichever pronunciation of it is applied, it is merely a projection on another language of the pronunciation in the mother language of the respective user. So I allow myself to pronounce Pseudophoenix like in my mother language Psaevthopheenix.

[Matt in OC]

I don't follow, are we learning about the english pronunciation of latin names?

I think you nailed it. The reading rules for the actual Latin are very different from English. For a native English speaker it would be hard to learn to read "from scratch", so the names are pronounced and taught similarly to how they would be in English. Makes it more natural to read thing as they would be read in English. It would be very unnatural for a native English speaker to pronounce Sah-bahl mee-nohr (Sabal minor), Y-oo-bay-ah hee-len-sis (Jubaea chilensis), or P-say-oo-doh-fay-nix (Pseudophoenix), the way it would be pronounced by an actual Latin speaker.

Exactly, and not to mention that within spoken latin itself there are all sorts of variations depending on the country where it was spoken (ie. Italianate "church" Latin, French Latin, German Latin, etc.).

It is my understanding (can't remember which palm book I read it in) that the accepted practice is to pronounce that latin how you would say it in English, but lord knows how straight forward that is not!

[Phoenikakias]

Bump! How do we spell (Pritchardia) gaudichaudi?

[Yunder Wækraus]

On 12/18/2012, 5:16:38, edric said:

Yes dean, That is what you said, I assumed you knew how to. The pronunciation I have provided is from the University of Florida, but I am amending all names ending in ii, I am certain Alberto knows what he's talking about, Ed

"ee-eye" (IPA /iai/) is fine for Latin <ii>. There are multiple traditions of pronunciation for Latin (and Greek!) scientific names in English. Until recently, the Anglo traditions followed the sound changes (known as the Great Vowel Shift) that affect the pronunciation of vowels. (This is why English is unique within the languages of Europe in pronouncing a, e, i, o, u as AY, EE, EYE, OH, YOO, whereas many (most?) European languages pronounce them as (roughly) AH, EH, EE, OH, OO. As for the pronunciation of <c> before <oe>, it is meant to be like an /s/ sound in English (so Aceolorrhaphe should be a-see-loh-ray-fee or a-see-loh-rah-fee in English). 

In recent decades, there has been a great deal of pressure to pronounce some Latin-derived scientific words with faux pronunciations of European vowels. If we were really trying to pronounce words as they were said in Roman times, the letter <v> should sound like /w/, and the <r> should be rolled like in Spanish!

Honestly, near enough is good enough. This, however, is why I prefer to write and say the common name whenever possible. Not only does it avoid the contentious issue of stress and vowel quality inherent in scientific names, but it also avoids confusion. Contrary to what we might want to think, scientific names are hardly fixed, and the common name is often more stable! (e.g. the floss silk tree and its ever-changing scientific name)