I always have this dilemma when I'm moving palms up to larger pots:  should I 1) just lift it out, of the pot soil and all and set it into the new pot and surround with new soil causing the least root disturbance or 2) soak in a bucket to wash away the old potting soil and then pot up the bare-rooted palm in the larger pot.

In the early days (a few years ago) I typically used the first method.  But then as I started dealing with slower growing palms where the soil can be several years old, I always feel like I don't want that old sludge in the new pot.  Also I like to soak them in a kelp solution in the process which usually result in most of the soil falling away.  I'm still not sure what's best though, as method 1 causes the least tranplant shock and is probably least likely to harm the palm, while method 2 seems like a better situation in the long term if you don't kill the palm in the bare-rooting process.

So what do you do?

Matt

I have previously used the first method, but found the quality of the soil to go down hill very fast as it becomes more and more compressed with root growth, although perhaps this is leaving the re-potting too late.

I would guess it is species specific as the palms with the more vigorous root systems generally seem less adverse to being bare rooted.

I intend to use the second method from now on until I find species that object to it, then I will try those species again with the first method and see how the soil performs.

From my experience so far, there is a gain in the first method in that the growth continues as though nothing has happened, but that gain is offset in time as growth slows as the quality of the soil declines.

Good topic Matt.  I used to freak out when repotting and all the soil fell away.  I thought that the palm would suffer.  Now I realize that it usually dosen't hurt anything.  I bare root depending on how I think the soil looks.  If it's a species that loves water and I think can handle some older, more compact potting soil then I just leave it.  Or if it's a huge, rootfilled 2 gallon or a 5 gallon then I just leave it if I can because I feel that the plant is developed and stonger by then.  If I feel that the soil has compacted or the drainage is less than optimum then I'll pull the plant out and soak it in a bucket of water and let the old soil gently fall away.  When repotting I try and gently push the new soil into the rootball and tap the pot on the ground many times to get all the air pockets out.  I've had bad luck trying to bare root a plant without using water.  The weight of the soil can rip delicate roots.  I'm just sort of learning as I go,  I don't really have any definate conclusions yet.

Repotting is definitely a species/genera specific issue. Slower species of Dypsis and other Malagasy plants will suffer from soil breakdown. They are also tough as heck and will take a rough repotting. Other palms with "dieback" roots such as Borassus and Bismarckia shouldn't be disturbed, and should be delicately moved to higher pots with the soil intact.

When I pot up, I usually move the plant into a MUCH larger pot.  For example, I generally move 1-gallons straight into a 5-gallons.  I figure even without barerooting about 90% of the soil will be new, and only about 10% is the old sludge.  It just doesn't seem worth it to disturb the roots to replace 10% of the soil....

I usually only re-pot one size up because I really want to insure fast drainage.. then I just life the rootball out, pull away a few clinging roots, and drop it in the new potting mixture... so far, so good... I've actually even stepped a few palms down to smaller pots when they weren't really growing and kinda dragging their feet only to see them take off in a smaller pot...  Most palms (from my experience) love to kinda be root-bound and not have too much freedom.

Most palms (from my experience) love to kinda be root-bound and not have too much freedom.

Just like I like my women folk!

Just like I like my women folk!

Yeah, I love root-bound women too.. lololol

I have a few (5) cold hardy palms planted outside.  pulled them out of the pots (soil and all) and planted.  It's all good.

Most of my other palms are moved from pot to pot.   I usually run a large knife around the edge of the pot, loosen it up and pull out the palm.   I try NOT to disturb the roots.   Plop the palm into the next size up pot and add the fill dirt around the sides, etc. water and watch grow.   So far, so good for me.

(cfkingfish @ Nov. 29 2006,10:01)

QUOTE

Repotting is definitely a species/genera specific issue. Slower species of Dypsis and other Malagasy plants will suffer from soil breakdown. They are also tough as heck and will take a rough repotting. Other palms with "dieback" roots such as Borassus and Bismarckia shouldn't be disturbed, and should be delicately moved to higher pots with the soil intact.

I fit somewhere near this catagory. (Yes its true, I haven't potted up that many palms)   But I have decided, the higher the  "size to price ratio"  In other words, RAREITY, I am more prone to the least root disturbing as possible.  If I have a palm with old looking soil that I suspect I can find some where in expensively or close, I may go bare root route.

I like to see the different opinions..

On plants that are not bare rooted....does anyone tease (nah, nah, nah, nah, nahhhh! ) their outer roots when rootbound? I'm always confused by this treatment of roots of non-palm species.

David

On plants that are not bare rooted....does anyone tease (nah, nah, nah, nah, nahhhh!  ) their outer roots when rootbound? I'm always confused by this treatment of roots of non-palm species.

David

I tease them slightly (if they're tightly wound).. Kinda like I do with people.

Interesting,

I'm actually surprised that there are so many responses here and it seems like people are equally split between the two methods (the way I am in my heart ).  The only additional comment I have on the bare-rooting method is that since I've done it this way I have lost a few palms within ~6 months of transplanting that I attributed to the transplant itself.  I've started either spraying or soaking the root ball with Daconil just before potting and this seems to take care of it so far.

Regarding teasing the roots, I personally don't think this is a good idea with palms and never do it.  Palms generally don't have as developed of an ability to branch roots, and generate new growth points on broken roots.  Usually palms roots have one main structure with the branches being relatively thin. With regular dicot trees, I think a much larger fraction of root growth is due to branching which is why it's safe (and beneficial) to break up rootbound rootballs.  But with palms I think you risk breaking roots which will often just cause that root to die.  When you pot up, most of the new root growth will be roots coming from the stem and those will go right past hte area where the roots are swirling.  So this is my feeling which is only semi-educated.  Anyone have a conflicting opinion?

Matt

You only have to remove the old soil if there is a problem with it. Such as fungus, rot, etc. There is no need to tease or manipulate the roots in any way. They will untangle themselves when they are in the new soil. Barerooting them may cause shock, and is unnecessary unless you are shipping them. In regards to what size pot you need to pot-up to, it depends on a few factors: The species, its growth rate, the type and composition of soil mix, fertilizer used, and irrigation method. There are a few other minor factors, but they don't weigh in as much as the others.

Ryan

Interesting topic. My experiences and views are from a grower or nurserman's application.Soil is probably the most important part in the total picture to growing plants in a container. If you use poor soil, your going to end up with a poor looking plant. Thats the first thing.Try to use a good, well balance mix of ingredients in your potting mix. Because of labor cost, re-potting thousands of all different types of plants,time envolved, it would never be practical to bare root plants before stepping them up to the next size. This is totally unheard of in the industry. Now, for those of you that are palm enthusiast's and are occassionally  potting a palm or two up to the next size pot, this might work for you.

  IMO, I don't think this is the best method and chances of harming the palm's roots and setting it back are very good. Honestly, in all my years, I have never seen anyone doing this.

 If a palm is reasonably healthy, it should be potted up to next pot size,or in many cases with a hardy fast growing species, you could skip the next size and go to even the next larger one. A heavy soil mix that dosen't drain well will cause alot of problems, mainly root rot and will effect the growth of the palm.

 Jeff

I try to disturb the rots as little as possible. I don't want to introduce disease or fungus into the system via injury that I created due to transplanting. I use a high quality topsoil that I buy by the yard and then further amend with perlite. I can't count on this mix being sterile.

When transplanting, if my mix is loose and the roots haven't really grown in enough into it's existing container, the dirt sometimes falls out on it's own- that's when I bare-root- more or less because I don't have a choice.

When getting something in the mail I do my best to see that the palms come IN their container even if it costs more. I know a lot of guys want to bare root to save money- and you do- but the palm has setbacks and doesn't seem to grow quite as well as the alternative. I know the USDA has hissies over intersate dirt travel so I realise sometimes bare root is the only option. This is what I've found- there you go! This is a GREAT thread, btw ::

(Jeff Searle @ Nov. 30 2006,21:20)

QUOTE

Interesting topic. My experiences and views are from a grower or nurserman's application.Soil is probably the most important part in the total picture to growing plants in a container. If you use poor soil, your going to end up with a poor looking plant. Thats the first thing.Try to use a good, well balance mix of ingredients in your potting mix.

Jeff, what soil do you use in your pots?  Because whatever it is, it's got to be good - your palms are so healthy-looking.  

This probably isn't the best, but currently, I'm using Miracle-Gro Potting Mix (not the Aqua-coir stuff), perlite, and clean sandbox-type sand.  Don't want to use the sand in my yard as who knows what fungies/contaminents are in it.  I have lava rock at the bottom for drainage (and to keep them from blowing over).

I'd like to use what you're using to keep the potted guys happy.

There is a potting soil sold at Lowe's called Jungle Grow, and it comes in a few different formulas that are basically the same. They are very close to what Jeff grows his palms in.

Ryan

IMO, I don't think this is the best method and chances of harming the palm's roots and setting it back are very good. Honestly, in all my years, I have never seen anyone doing this.

If a palm is reasonably healthy, it should be potted up to next pot size,or in many cases with a hardy fast growing species, you could skip the next size and go to even the next larger one. A heavy soil mix that dosen't drain well will cause alot of problems, mainly rooy rot and will effect the growth of the palm.

Jeff

So, Jeff... how do you feel about the Root situation with regard to loosening (Teasing) them? Do you just leave them wound and drop into the next size or spread them out a little? I've done it both ways and have been successful, but maybe one is better than another.

I'm thinking that I need to work more on my potting mix (which I am still not totally happy with) and then I'll go back to just moving plants up without bare-rooting to get rid of the old crap soil.

Matt

(Palmarum @ Dec. 01 2006,08:07)

QUOTE

There is a potting soil sold at Lowe's called Jungle Grow, and it comes in a few different formulas that are basically the same. They are very close to what Jeff grows his palms in.

Ryan

Wow, talk about lucky. I am growing from seed for the first time and happened to pick this as the soil to start. Something about the Jungle label that pulled me toward it. One thing to note about this......it is definately not steril as I have weed seed sprouting.

David

(Matt in SD @ Dec. 01 2006,22:35)

QUOTE

I'm thinking that I need to work more on my potting mix (which I am still not totally happy with) and then I'll go back to just moving plants up without bare-rooting to get rid of the old crap soil.

Matt

I think I'm in the same position.  I had been tempted towards bare rooting because of the state of the soil in the pots, but from Jeff's comments, it is probably my potting mix that needs attention.  I had already thought that my mix needed work and have been experimenting to some extent.

Using either of these methods, is it best to wait till spring and warmer weather to re pot or does it matter. I have several palms that I need to move up to larger pots. Nothing exotic, a few Canary's, some Queens, a couple of Majesty palms and a Bottle . I would think that everything except the Bottle would be pretty bulletproof and not that much affected by the cooldown but I'm not sure. Days are warm but evenings get pretty cold here in the Riverside Co. Most moving up from 5 and 7 gal pots.

Randy

Randy,

   I see no reason why you can't or should not pot up your palms into the next size pot now. Thats leaving the root system intact and not disturbing it. Weather plays no part with this being done. Now, because of cooler or cold weather being the issue, than I would wait until it warms up, if you prefer to wash the soil completely off. Doing this, your going to cause the palm some set-back.

 Get them boys in some bigger pots now with some fresh soil, add your fertilizer and away they go.

  Jeff

Thanks Jeff

I think I'll do it now leaving the rootball intact as you had suggested. I figure the less stress the better and if I move up a couple of sizes of pots there will be plenty of fresh soil to keep them happy for a while.

Randy

Hey Randy , I followed Jeff's advise and potted up some rootbound palms just recently. If you do it too and we have problems, we can make "angry faces" at him.....

(If they do fine, I'll throw in a gratuitous smiley....)

Just an update...based on the replies here I went out and bought lots of different ingredients and with the help of my 5 year old son we mixed up all different kinds of soil mixes.  Still not completely satisfied, but I have one that I like for seedlings (1:1:1 coco peat:perlite:fine bark), and one that I liked for the larger palms (2:1:1:1 Supersoil:Pumice:black cinder:coco peat).  The previous mix I was using was, I think, holding too much water for some palms and these newer ones hold a nice amount, but aren't so soggy.

I also potted up some rootbound palms that I purchased recently and just pulled them out of the old pots and set them into the new pots with minimal disturbance.  And I had two nearly identical Dypsis hovomantsina's so I tried one in the light mix (coco pea:perlite:bark), and one in the heavier mix as a test.

So, when I ask these questions, I'm not just making small talk...  Be careful what you say, I will take the advice and if it doesn't work (like Bill said) someone with pay

Matt

Am I right in assuming the the Supersoil in your second mix is the Palm/Cactus mix?

No, just plain old supersoil.  I didn't know they had a cactus mix.  The regular supersoil seems pretty much to be just composted bark/wood shavings, and the bag says there is some sand, but I couldn't see any.  No perlite, no or very little peat most.  

Matt

I agree with Jeff, although I do also tend to brush off the top layer of soil ,especially the edge near the pot,so that the top of the rootball is football shaped.

The top layer of soil is where fungus spores nestle and salt builds up to the worst so i like to get rid of that,and there is usually no roots in that part anyway.

Its certainly true that a lot of palms grow faster rootbound , so potting up 1 size pot at a time keeps them rootbound whilst regularly introducing a dollop of nice new soil and nutrients.

By taking away the top soil it also makes it easier to get that soil down the sides of the pot.

In addition to what Nigel said above, the only soil I ever actually get rid of is the top 3/4 to 1 inch on the top. This is just a weed preventative measure, since this soil holds the minute weed seedlings, and weed seeds. If you do not have much of a weed problem then this would be unnecessary. There are very few palms that I will leave rootbound on purpose. If given new space, they will root and grow. Not all fast growth in a palm can be see above the soil. I have seen palms sacrifice girth and diameter in a rootbound situation to gain height as fast as possible. This is not a sign of fast growth, but an avenue of adaptation to a fixed environment.

Ryan

(Matt in SD @ Dec. 04 2006,10:56)

QUOTE

No, just plain old supersoil.  I didn't know they had a cactus mix.  The regular supersoil seems pretty much to be just composted bark/wood shavings, and the bag says there is some sand, but I couldn't see any.  No perlite, no or very little peat most.  

Matt

Hey Matt, several of us have started using that palm/cactus mix as a base.  (sounds like your supersoil with 10-15% pearlite)  I have just been adding more or less perlite based on the palm size.  I think I am going to adjust my "post pot soak" too.  I have been filling and let drain 3-4 times. (in addition to starting with a moist/wet mix to start with)  I think I'm gonnado 1-2 soaks........the more I look, the more I see palm deaths due to overwater, not under water...

(Matt in SD @ Nov. 29 2006,01:26)

QUOTE

I always have this dilemma when I'm moving palms up to larger pots:  should I 1) just lift it out, of the pot soil and all and set it into the new pot and surround with new soil causing the least root disturbance or 2) soak in a bucket to wash away the old potting soil and then pot up the bare-rooted palm in the larger pot.

In the early days (a few years ago) I typically used the first method.  But then as I started dealing with slower growing palms where the soil can be several years old, I always feel like I don't want that old sludge in the new pot.  Also I like to soak them in a kelp solution in the process which usually result in most of the soil falling away.  I'm still not sure what's best though, as method 1 causes the least tranplant shock and is probably least likely to harm the palm, while method 2 seems like a better situation in the long term if you don't kill the palm in the bare-rooting process.

So what do you do?

Matt

It depends.  Sometimes, the soil's mostly gone, so you don't have a choice.

Mostly, though, I've found that the less disturbance the better.  And, this varies from species to species.  

I performed an experiment years ago, when I got a whole bunch of Hyophorbe v seedlings for cheap, about 20, in liners.  

Half I pulled out of the liners and potted like usual.  The other half I slitted up the sides, and planted them in larger pots liners and all.

The palms in that second group were almost twice the size of the others.

That was just Hyphorbe v.

Further experiments will be useful for others.

I once yanked a Phoenix canariensis out of its pot and forgot about it, in a spot that got water.  It rooted right there!

Oh, yeah, experimentation is indicated!

dave