remote germination/adjacent germination

[gsn]

I have a question about remote germination as opposed to adjacent germination.

I sowed some serena repens(saw palmetos) seeds about a month and half ago,not knowning these were remote germinators.Well they are starting to germinate,and it seems rather than the radicle going down into the germinating media it is actually pushing the seed up.In some cases the radicle is even pushing the seed into the air rather than going down into the soil.I have what appears to be small hair like roots growning off the radicle above ground on some that first germinated. The plumule is just starting to form on the first ones to germinate,the ones that seem to have the roots growing in the air. AT least what I think are roots are just below the the swelling (thicker portion of the cotyledonary petiole)just before the radicle starts.

I have never germinated a remote germinator before ,so I am not exactly sure what I am looking at ,except what I have seen through diagrams with research done on the net.

I guess my question is do remote germinators need deeper germinating containers?Is it possible that the radicle has already hit the bottom of the container ,at this stage and is pushing everything above the surface?

I have them germinating BGL style in a covered container,with about 3 inches of 50/50 peat and perlite.

thanks for any responses!

[bgl]

Scott,

Unfortunately, I have no experience with Serenoa. But when I germinate seeds that will either have very vigorours roots, OR are remote germinators I use deeper containers. Mostly the 1G plastic containers that we buy bottled water in. See Post 6 in the 'Palm Seedlings" thread under "Discussing Palm Trees". The medium is six inches/15 cm deep in this container and I could add another inch or so if I felt it was necessary. This is how I germinate Bismarckias for instance. They have deep roots, and if not given enough depth they WILL push up the way you describe.

Since I have no experience with Serenoa, I'm reluctant to give advise, except to say that I'm 100% convinced the radicle has hit the bottom.

Bo-Göran

[gsn]

BGL,

Thanks for the response.

I guess what I am wondering is why the radicle,would not start to grow laterally,when it hit the bottom, instead of pushing the seed and radicle above the surface of the potting media.

Maybe you can answer  this question since you feel the radicle has hit the bottom of the container,should I transplant the the palm before it produces it's first leaf?

Everything I have read says to wait until at least the first leaf has developed.

What I am afraid of is, if what I am seeing are roots coming off the radicle above the potting media,is that they will dry out and the radicle(root) will wither and die?

What would you do at this point,would you transplant to a deeper pot even though the plumule, is just starting to develop,and no leaf is present?

thanks in advance

[bgl]

Scott,

again, not having experience I don't know how likely it is that the radicle may break off at this point, so I'm reluctant to suggest that. Is there any way that you could take the entire container and put it into a second container, a slightly larger one, with taller sides? That way you could add soil up to the level you think is appropriate, and you wouldn't disturb the seeds.

Bo-Göran

[gsn]

BGL

I am trying to picture your solution,and am having trouble visualizing it.

If I put the container in a deeper one,I would have to cut the bottom out of the existing one.With a media of peat and perlite,as soon as I did that it would fall apart and the seeds would be distrubed anyway.Maybe I'm not understanding your fix to the problem?

At any rate,  would I be correct in assuming that if I don't get the radicle below the soil line that it and the roots forming off  it,will dry out and die?Or is possible for them to get enough moisture above ground to develop the first leaf, then transplant?

So I guess that is the big question,if they are going to dry out and die anyway,then I  guess I will have take a chance and transplant now!

thanks for all the info

[bgl]

Scott,

No, my suggestion didn't involve cutting the bottom from your current container. Unless you're willing to take a chance and transplant them, there isn't much you can do about the way the roots grow right now.

My suggestion would simply make it possible for you to add more soil on top of the present soil level, achieving two goals; 1) stabilizing the plants, and 2) avoiding the risk that they're going to dry out.

Bo-Göran

[palmazon]

In other words, cover the exposed part(s) with additional soil.

As an evolutionary adaptation, remote germination would suggest (at least) an occasional dry season - how many seeds do you have? Are you germinating them in community pots? In a germination chamber or hothouse? The only reason I ask is because Ray in Tampa sent me a couple of dozen...

[Neofolis]

It may not be a question of hitting the bottom of the container.  I have found that things with woosy roots will tend to push the seed upwards, rather than the roots downwards, particularly if the medium is on the heavy side.  It has happened in the past six months with one of my Dypsis heteromorpha.  I have found the easiest solution is to keep things fairly moist and build the medium up a little to cover the exposed roots.  I have two D.heteromorpha in the same pot and it only happened with one of them, so it appears to be peculiar to the specific plant rather than the species, although I dare say some species are more prone to it happening than others.

I seem to recall a thread about the same topic a few months ago and the plants seem to survive perfectly well in their elevated state until re-potting, when they can be lowered to a more normal position.

[gsn]

Thanks everyone for the info/advice!

I did a little more research on serenoa repens and found that that they have a pretty deep subteranian trunk/root below the ground.

I should have known this living in Florida all my life,and in retrospect should have used a deeper media,than 3 inches.They are extremly hard to transplant from the wild because of this.

Palmazon,

Not sure you want to follow my procedure since I encountered this problem.Having said that I will tell you what I did germination wise.

I planted the seeds (aprox 30) in a sterilite container (the one a little larger than a shoe box) covered BGL stlye with the top on. I used  a 50/50 mix of perlite and peat moss about 3 inches deep. I pressed the seeds just  under the surface of the media ,actully some of the seeds you can still partially  see a portion of it.I did this about 4 weeks ago with fresh seeds cleaned of fruit.

I am doing this in the garage as it is the warmest place in the house.It hasn't dropped below 70 degress in there even on our coldest night so far this fall.and durning the day can get extremely warm around 90 to 95 degrees. One other thing I don't have bottom heat in the sense of a heating pad,but I do have a hot water heater which in of itself doesn't generate any heat(unfortunately) however there is a pvc pipe that runs the water into the house which is extremely warm.

What I did was place two closed cell foam slats on either side of this pipe so I could place the sterilite container on top of the pipe with about a 1/2 inch of clearance.So I guess inreality it does have bottom heat.

The  only problem with everyones solution to make the media deeper by adding soil is that I have had very uneven germination so far.

The 3 that have pushed the seed up into the air,came up about 2 weeks into the process and then I have about 8 that are inbetween that ,and some that are just developing the cortilyne petiole,and some that haven't done anything yet.

So if I add media I will be putting the majority of seeds under 2 or 3 inches of soil! Not sure that would a good idea!

Bottom line , if starting again Iwould sow them in at least 6 inches as per BGL suggestion,maybe more of  soil.

However that would probably eliminate any advantage of any kind of bottom heat?

Hope my info/mistake will help with your germination results. That silver one  of Ray's, look like it has some good genes!

Neofolis

BGL was right, radicle was actually hitting the bottom of the container and pushing it up above the surface.

The reason I know this is because the 3 that it was happening to,I transplanted.

The radicle on the serenoa was extremely stiff,not soft or pliable at all.

We will see if the transplant works before the first leaf develops as I felt I had no other choice but to transplant them. I figured it would be about the same situation as the baggie method,you wouldn't wait until the first few leaeves developed before transplanting.

What I might do is transplant 1/2 and  leave the other 1/2 in the community pot and see if they survive until the first leaf develops ,before tranplanting with out the radicle drying out.

I'm pretty sure after transplanting those 3, that all are going to do the same, as the media isn't deep enough for the very stiff radicle that develops on this species.

Again thanks for the responses and info.

[bgl]

Scott,

Thanks for the detailed info on what you've done. Just one little detail: bottom heat. I don't use bottom heat for ANY of my germination containers. I'm sure it speeds up germination for some palm species, but since I'm getting pretty good germination anyway it's just too much trouble (for me) to be worth it. I've never had a problem with the deep containers (i.e. I'm still getting good germination).

Bo-Göran

[gsn]

BO

I wouldn't have worried about bottom heat either ,except that we have gotten in the high 40F low 50F degree temps outside a few nights here in Central Florida since I started germinating these seeds.

So figured a little extra heat via the hotwater PVC pipe wouldn't hurt. If I was germinating these seeds in the spring or summer here in florida I wouldn't have worried about any additional heat from the water heater PVC pipe!

I was suprised at how stiff the radicle on this species was when I transplanted them.