Sabal causerium and S. maritima

[edbrown_III]

Folks,

I got the key for Sabal in my Palm Beach PS newletter.

its specifies a very large ligule for S. causerium --- I would like to see some photos of this to check with my palms.

secondly, it mentions S. maritima having white scales on the lower side of the petioles

I would be much obliged if anyone could share photos of these so I can compare with my trees.

Best regards

Ed

[virtualpalm]

Here ya go, Ed. Ironically, I was just researching this in one of our field nurseries last week and got photos of both species.

Sabal causiarum

Sabal maritima

Jody

[Jerry@TreeZoo]

Ed, can you share the key with us?

Jody, Is causiarum the only one with ligules that look like that?

[edbrown_III]

Jody,

Much obliged very good and helpful photos

Jerry send an email address and I will send key

Best wishes,

Ed

[Alberto]

Hi Ed!

Since I bought this Sabal at a nursery in the city of Curitiba and knowing that Sabal maritima is practically the only Sabal that is cultivated in a big nursery in my state Paraná, i always thought this was a Sabal maritima...............

Does this little amount counts as "scale" on the undersides of thepetioles?????

[Alberto]

Hi Ed!

Since I bought this Sabal at a nursery in the city of Curitiba and knowing that Sabal maritima is practically the only Sabal that is cultivated in a big nursery in my state Paraná, i always thought this was a Sabal maritima...............

Does this little amount counts as "scale" on the undersides of thepetioles?????

[edbrown_III]

I think so but the massive size and abscence of ligules ( both S. causerium and domingensis have ligules)

round fruit would differentiate it from S. domingeniss

inflouresce equal to leaves would differentiate it from both S. causerium and S. domingenis.

that would be my argument.

Best regards

Ed

[edbrown_III]

Alberto,

one more thing how much cold has this been subjected to? only -6C or so for mine.

Best regards

Ed

[Alberto]

Alberto,

one more thing how much cold has this been subjected to? only -6C or so for mine.

Best regards

Ed

THANKS!

-5ºC here.

[virtualpalm]

Ed, can you share the key with us?

Jody, Is causiarum the only one with ligules that look like that?

From my understanding, yes it is.

Jody

[virtualpalm]

I think so but the massive size and abscence of ligules ( both S. causerium and domingensis have ligules)

round fruit would differentiate it from S. domingeniss

inflouresce equal to leaves would differentiate it from both S. causerium and S. domingenis.

that would be my argument.

Best regards

Ed

Actually, Ed, it is my understanding that S. domingensis has neither ligules nor scales, and that this was the easiest way to tell it apart from S. causiarum and S. maritima. I have seen some large S. domingensis recently, and they did not have ligules or scales.

Jody

[edbrown_III]

Jody

Good to hear form you---- this was confusing me also as the article with the key has a photo of the 1/2 ligules that they call S. domingenis--- its also in the key as possible abbreviated ligules ---

Both you and Dr. Noblick have done much more travel in habitat and studied closer than me so I am in a bit of quandry wto whom to defer--- I think it is the word possible in the key and you need additional evidence ie seed size and lack of transverse leaf veins.

the ones I got in my front yard ( my lone data point)

I collected in Rio San Juan North coast of DR. but they had such huge seed sizes that it was pretty easy to use that as the differentiator ( per ZOna 90)

I collected seeds over the years in USVI and PR and theres several large trees in my back yard forest that have the 1/2 ligules not as well developed as the photos you kindly posted. I suspect these are mixed but will look to see if they have the transverse veins in the leaves .

I will shoot a few photos and throw this out to you and the learned group for commentary.

Best wishes,

Ed

[virtualpalm]

Ed,

I came across a couple sabals this morning that I believe are S. domingensis. They lacked the scales on the petioles and had small ligules part of the way between the leaf base and the blade which one could consider "1/2" or "partial.' Below is a closeup photo of the petiole showing the lack of scales and a second closeup of one of the partial ligules. I also got a photo of the fruit and seed.

Jody

Edited April 12, 2012 by virtualpalm

[Alberto]

Jody, do you call that "lack of scales" on this Sabal´s petioles? I see a lot of scale on the pics you posted!!

[grad85]

Thought i had a Maritima ,but now i am not so sure anymore ?? what do you think ?

This one should be around 18 years old,i got it from a guy that took seed from Sri lanka and had this one indoors for 15 years.

The last 3 years he is outside every summer, in winter he,s inside the house.

[mnorell]

A note on S. maritima's cold hardiness: A relatively small S. maritima (bought as this species and planted in the ground in the open) survived the outrageously chilly 2009/2010 and almost as bad 2010/2011 winters at my place in Natchez, Mississippi. The whole 2009/2010 winter was far below average. In Jan 2010 temps were below freezing for three solid days, lows 18 (-7.8C), high 28 (-2.2C); the following year it was 2.5 days below freezing and just a couple of degrees (Fahrenheit) warmer than the previous year's event. Foliage was untouched and frost did form on those leaves. S. domingensis was defoliated (as usual below about 25F when frost forms on that one). And just FYI two fairly large--just about to trunk--S. causiarum were also untouched by that cold. I'm sure others growing those species in the Gulf and southeast USA states may have even seen worse numbers so it would be interesting to hear how it fared and where damage may have started. Just amazing how much cold these Caribbean Sabals can handle!

[JLeVert]

S. causiarum has done very well in Augusta, GA. I have several at the school where I teach and they are about 15' tall with 6' of trunk. S. maritima has been less foliage hardy as has S. domingensis. All the Sabals seem to gain hardiness the longer they're in the ground. S. pumos was hurt when it was young, but seems to be doing well now. I had the same experience with S. rosei and S. mexicana: winter foliage damage as young plants, but they 'grew out of it'.

S. rosei in the middle. This one was bearing seed even at this small size.

S. mexicana in Augusta, GA.

S. causiarum in Augusta: the S. causiarum is dead center sticking up over the palmettos. I'll try to get a better picture.

[Alberto]

Thought i had a Maritima ,but now i am not so sure anymore ?? what do you think ?

This one should be around 18 years old,i got it from a guy that took seed from Sri lanka and had this one indoors for 15 years.

The last 3 years he is outside every summer, in winter he,s inside the house.

Grad 5,for me it´s not an easy task to identify your Sabal!!

Maybe some american , familiar with this genus can say something.....?

[iamjv]

Nice shots of those sabals Joe!!! Hope you can show a closer view of that Causarium!

[JLeVert]

I'll get the camera out. We have had so much rain this August (almost 10") that it wasn't worth trying to take pictures. The up side is that the palms have grown like weeds. They were just waiting around for the moisture. John, I haven't forgotten about sending you some B x J (F4 selfed) seedlings. It just seemed too hot to mail plants. Seeds are being prepared.

Edited August 20, 2012 by JLeVert

[pfancy]

how old is the rosei?

[JLeVert]

The S. rosei in the picture is no longer with us. The building behind it was destroyed. The palm was moved, but it didn't make it. However, several of its offspring are almost that big and were planted in safer places. In the picture, that rosei was about 8 years old.