Minors

[MattyB]

My palms have grown incredibly fast in their first few years of growth, and now that I have a lot of stuff established, and a nice thick bed of mulch creating nutrients, I'd like to back off on the fertilizer. I've always used a well balanced fertilizer with minors, but now I don't think I need as much nitrogen and I'd like to let the gardens organics take over more. I noticed some yellow spotting on my largest Pritchardia, which are known for yellowing here in CA, so I decided that I want to still provide those minors that the palms love. So I threw down some Ironite for iron, some Epsom Salts for Magnesium, but where do I find K/Potassium? I've never seen K-Mag here in CA, which I've only heard you guys in Florida talking about. Can I throw my old bananas in the mulch? I want to take advantage of the Winter rains and just throw it around letting the rain wash it in over the Winter.

[Mandrew968]

Don't stop fertilizing unless you can't afford to... Mulch is great, but keep on fertilizing if you can.

[Stevetoad]

ive use banana peels on staghorn ferns. they like it so i dont see why palms wouldnt. but for your place your going to need to start eating a TON of bananas!!!

[MattyB]

  On 1/12/2012 at 5:40 PM, Mandrew968 said:

Don't stop fertilizing unless you can't afford to... Mulch is great, but keep on fertilizing if you can.

What is your expertise regarding this? Because my first instinct is to continue to fertilize as well, but I know of several people who, once their garden gets established, have backed off on the synthetic nitrogen type fertilizers and let the organics and the microorganisms take over. Keep in mind that we're in CA, not in Florida sand.

[_Keith]

  On 1/12/2012 at 6:40 PM, MattyB said:

  On 1/12/2012 at 5:40 PM, Mandrew968 said:

Don't stop fertilizing unless you can't afford to... Mulch is great, but keep on fertilizing if you can.

What is your expertise regarding this? Because my first instinct is to continue to fertilize as well, but I know of several people who, once their garden gets established, have backed off on the synthetic nitrogen type fertilizers and let the organics and the microorganisms take over. Keep in mind that we're in CA, not in Florida sand.

Matty, I agree with your take on the fertilizer direction. Sounds more cost effective, more time efficient, as well as more fiscally and environmentally responsible. Add specific minors as called for.

[richnorm]

Might be worth investing in a detailed soil analysis. I don't think these are terribly expensive though you would probably want a few at different places in a large garden. As I understand it, there is no point in adding minors that are not lacking in your soil.

[schatzle78]

Matt,

From my limited knowledge, I think that potash or Greensand would be your best organic sources of potassium. If you cannot find them locally, I think they are readily available online. If you are looking for something you can use that you may have around the house, then wood ashes (if you have a fireplace) may be an option. They would contain minors as well, but also contain lime. I believe most palms prefer slightly acidic soil so you would have to assure that your soil doesn't become too alkaline if you decide to use the wood ashes.

Mike

[joe_OC]

Matt,

Have applied the same logic that you have. I am currently trying out Azomite for minors. It has EVERYTHING in it. I mix it with water and water it in or you can sprinkle it around the base of the tree like you would with epsom salt.

Here is the certificate of Analysis:

Azomite Analysis

Joe

[MattyB]

That stuff looks great Joe. I'll have to keep an eye out for it at one of those closer locations.

Mike, thanks for the info regarding potash/wood ashes. I have a burn pile so maybe I'll throw some ashes down around the Pritchardia. I have tons of mulch on the ground, so I probably don't have to worry about the soil becoming basic, but I can throw down some sulfur at the same time just to make sure.

[schatzle78]

No problem Matt. Funny thing is, I just bought some of the Azomite myself because I was impressed with it as well. I couldn't find it real easy locally, so I purchased online. You can find a 44lb bag online for around $58, including shipping. Not super cheap, but not horrible either. However, the recommended application rate for mature trees can be 1-5lbs per tree (or more) depending on trunk diameter. Most of my palms are small so it won't be that bad for me but it could get a little pricey for you with your larger property and more mature trees. Maybe you can get by with less than the recommended rate. It can also be added to compost bins which can aid in the delivery efficiency of the microelements to the roots via microrganisms. I believe the pH is around 8 with this as well but like you said, this likely won't be an issue with all of your mulching.

[LJG]

Matt, those are not minors you are talking about. And here I thought you were finally getting the hang of things.....

Matt I tried the mostly organic route for two years - by mistake. I brought in tons of compost and put about 2 inches worth on the soil twice a year for two years. I used organic ferts too with some spot fertilizing of Lutz fert stakes. The reason I say mostly organic is I made a mistake and for those two years I used Nutricote Palm formula. Well, it was made for Florida. You need heat and humidity to get it to release. I have shown a lot of people the results. I would grab fert pellets applied two years ago and squeeze them and they would pop with fertilizer still. So basically I got a month of synthetics. Anyway I finally noticed this because last winter my palms were just yellow compared to other peoples gardens I would visit. It drove me nuts. This year I changed things up using fertigation and my palms are really green - even through winter. A few on PT have seen the difference and mentioned it to me. Point being - palms need synthetic to look their best to stay healthy and fight off disease in my opinion. I would do synthetic spot treatments right when deficiencies are noticed and never go 100% organic. It sounds all warm and fuzzy to say "100% organic" but it really does not work for palm gardens in my book.

Azomite is great stuff. I put 25 bags down on my acre last spring. There is a place here in San Marcos that sells bags for $22. The minerals are great in the stuff. I bought the powered form but would go with granular next time to last longer and take longer to break down.

[MattyB]

Good info Len, thanks.

I too have squeezed old Nutricote/Dynamite capsules. From what I remember reading, when you squeeze it and "liquid" comes out, that's just water that has now replaced the fertilzer that has leached out of the capsule.

That Azomite sounds great.

As far as regular fertilization I've always used the Vigoro Palm Food that you can buy at Home Depot. It's way cheaper than Apex or Nutricote and I've always had great luck using it. It has all the secondary and micro nutrients palms need and although it's not slow release I've never burnt a plant. I just don't need my palms to grow faster so I wanna back off on the nitrogen. I want healthy and happy, not rocket ship fast.

[LJG]

  On 1/12/2012 at 10:09 PM, MattyB said:

Good info Len, thanks.

I too have squeezed old Nutricote/Dynamite capsules. From what I remember reading, when you squeeze it and "liquid" comes out, that's just water that has now replaced the fertilzer that has leached out of the capsule.

That Azomite sounds great.

As far as regular fertilization I've always used the Vigoro Palm Food that you can buy at Home Depot. It's way cheaper than Apex or Nutricote and I've always had great luck using it. It has all the secondary and micro nutrients palms need and although it's not slow release I've never burnt a plant. I just don't need my palms to grow faster so I wanna back off on the nitrogen. I want healthy and happy, not rocket ship fast.

It was powder that came out. Might have been Multicote. I get the two confused.

I would put in fertigation. I love mine. Made everything so easy and it doses low volume. After 1 use I was like "Houston. We have lift off".

Joking about the last part. The part about Houston. Not the Fertigation.

[Mr Cycad]

  On 1/12/2012 at 9:55 PM, LJG said:

Point being - palms need synthetic to look their best to stay healthy and fight off disease in my opinion.

I assume you mean, in your gardens where they don't naturally occur because of the quality of insitu soil or lack thereof (because habitat around the world tells us the exact opposite)? Because I totally disagree if not.

I never use 'synthetic' fertiliser at my place, and I haven't had any problems (I do use azomite (which I found out about on the cycad list a few years ago) and other things in new planting holes I dig to feed the soil microbiota). Sure, I live in a tropical environment where many palms occur naturally and the soil hasn't been destroyed & degraded by past generations. But all said, my father in-law has a working example at his place 1200kms south of me which use to be an old pineapple farm 30+ years ago, and was subtropical rainforest before that (it was cleared and felled for timber, much like the whole east coast of Australia). He too has never used 'synthetic' fertiliser with amazing results. Most people can't believe it, but then again, there are a lot of ignorant people (or maybe I should put it, 'people who are unaware'). He's place is the greenest in the neighborhood with the biggest trees, and it all has come down to hard work and lots of mulch amongst other things (and using good permaculture principals)! The native top soil there is pretty much nonexistent, washed away from years gone by. And under that is this terrible white shale rock. Mulching is a constant routine, but that is half the fun. Over the year a sweet black topsoil has built up while his canopy has grown and he can grow just about anything now. I bring down tropical's for him annually and they are all thriving there (Arenga , Calyptrocalyx, Hydriastele, Iguanura, Kentiopsis, Licuala, Pelagodoxa, Pinanga, Socratea etc)! I've talked him into using a few more things like azomite, but he has generally stuck to the old school principals of using composted chook poo from his pen, blood and bone, green manure & beneficial plantings etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is it's all about the soil and there is always an organic solution, despite what people say and do otherwise. I'm not going to lie, it is/was a lot of work, but that is life isn't it! What would you do otherwise? Keeps you fit and makes you feel good doing what is right. I also believe, some place you just shouldn't be trying to grow certain things as it's just a waste of time (you got to work with your conditions and understand the patterns, not against it - fundamental principal of permaculture).

Matt - lots of good info here already about organic sources for potassium (compost, wood ash, greensand etc). If you need a bit of a boost, you could get some sulfate of potash? You can also use liquid kelp which is quick release and the microbes love it! Isn't you place on granite? Granite dust is another thing...

Happy growing.

[trioderob]

"My palms have grown incredibly fast in their first few years of growth"

matty- pm me and I will turn you on to a place to get "palm plus" for cheap.

toss it 4x a year on the palms

Edited January 13, 2012 by trioderob

[LJG]

  On 1/12/2012 at 11:49 PM, Mr Cycad said:

  On 1/12/2012 at 9:55 PM, LJG said:

Point being - palms need synthetic to look their best to stay healthy and fight off disease in my opinion.

I assume you mean, in your gardens where they don't naturally occur because of the quality of insitu soil or lack thereof (because habitat around the world tells us the exact opposite)? Because I totally disagree if not.

I never use 'synthetic' fertiliser at my place, and I haven't had any problems (I do use azomite (which I found out about on the cycad list a few years ago) and other things in new planting holes I dig to feed the soil microbiota). Sure, I live in a tropical environment where many palms occur naturally and the soil hasn't been destroyed & degraded by past generations. But all said, my father in-law has a working example at his place 1200kms south of me which use to be an old pineapple farm 30+ years ago, and was subtropical rainforest before that (it was cleared and felled for timber, much like the whole east coast of Australia). He too has never used 'synthetic' fertiliser with amazing results. Most people can't believe it, but then again, there are a lot of ignorant people (or maybe I should put it, 'people who are unaware'). He's place is the greenest in the neighborhood with the biggest trees, and it all has come down to hard work and lots of mulch amongst other things (and using good permaculture principals)! The native top soil there is pretty much nonexistent, washed away from years gone by. And under that is this terrible white shale rock. Mulching is a constant routine, but that is half the fun. Over the year a sweet black topsoil has built up while his canopy has grown and he can grow just about anything now. I bring down tropical's for him annually and they are all thriving there (Arenga , Calyptrocalyx, Hydriastele, Iguanura, Kentiopsis, Licuala, Pelagodoxa, Pinanga, Socratea etc)! I've talked him into using a few more things like azomite, but he has generally stuck to the old school principals of using composted chook poo from his pen, blood and bone, green manure & beneficial plantings etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is it's all about the soil and there is always an organic solution, despite what people say and do otherwise. I'm not going to lie, it is/was a lot of work, but that is life isn't it! What would you do otherwise? Keeps you fit and makes you feel good doing what is right. I also believe, some place you just shouldn't be trying to grow certain things as it's just a waste of time (you got to work with your conditions and understand the patterns, not against it - fundamental principal of permaculture).

Matt - lots of good info here already about organic sources for potassium (compost, wood ash, greensand etc). If you need a bit of a boost, you could get some sulfate of potash? You can also use liquid kelp which is quick release and the microbes love it! Isn't you place on granite? Granite dust is another thing...

Happy growing.

I thought we were discussing in situ soil considering palms in natural habitat seem to do fine (although I would argue they never look like they do in cultivation under quality care). In this case here we are discussing a Southern California garden. His soil and mine are DG. It drains very well but has little organics. I am sure you could spend tons of time and dollars to get the soil to where it needs to be for a nice organic palm garden but plants would look like hell for the years it would take. Even after that we get very little rainfall which adds to the toughness in keeping great organic soil. I would love to have greater rainfall like you to help quickly break down organics. It certainly makes things easier. Just my opinion but I still doubt you will ever reach the success of a garden here using synthetics by going 100% organic. In fact I would love to see a 100% organic garden here that people are proud of and then compare it to gardens using synthetic. And I am not talking about some vegetable garden, I am referring to a palm specific garden.

  On 1/12/2012 at 11:49 PM, Mr Cycad said:

I guess what I'm trying to say here is it's all about the soil and there is always an organic solution, despite what people say and do otherwise.

Of course. But I think it depends on time, effort and money. Throwing down mulch on a DG based soil isn't going to give you gold over night. In my garden I have dumped compost and mulch religiously since buying the lot in 2004. If I dig down I get about 4 - 5 inches of rich, black top soil that will have tons of worms. Then a very small transition area, then right to straight DG. Gary Levine's garden is one of the nicest DG soils you can get. It is loaded with organics from ~75 years of being on an avocado grove. He mulches each year too. He still uses Synthetic. If someone wants the warm fuzzy of 100% organic, more power to them. From my experience here, most that try always end up going back and using at least spot treatments with synthetics. I have found the people that get the closest here are those in clay based soils that they spent years amending.

I am personally a huge fan of organics and at one time had dreams of 100% organic in my garden. I ditched it as I believe the perfect solution is a balance of the two. I am currently about 75% organic now and 25% synthetic. I put in a fertigation unit and pump Green Ganic (from New Zealand - can't remember what it is called there) and lots of other liquid organics. Then once a year in Summer I run water soluble synthetic. It takes 6 - 8 weeks for my EZFlos to 'run dry'. Since it is low PPM it won't kill soil micro organisms like top dressing with granular can do over time. I also foliar feed my entire garden twice a year with Seaweed/Kelp. Plus I use mineral based stuff and alternate it every two years. In 2013 I will put green sand down. So far this is working great for me but I am always looking to improve. If there is something else out there, I have no issues trying it out.

Every place is different and each person will do what is best for them. There is not a 100% correct answer that works across the board. So while you say there is "always an organic solution", I would argue it doesn't always make it the right choice.

On a side note, Since we are on the subject I would love to hear if gardens in Florida or Hawaii for example can go 100% organic and look green.

[Mr Cycad]

Hello again Len.

  On 1/13/2012 at 1:56 AM, LJG said:

I thought we were discussing in situ soil considering palms in natural habitat seem to do fine (although I would argue they never look like they do in cultivation under quality care).

This may very well be true for some, not so for others. The habitat palms at my place are the best specimens I've ever seen (Archontophoenix alexandrae, Calamus sp., Licuala ramsayi, Normanbya normanbyi etc to name a few). Anyways, this is really subjective and getting off track.

Have you guys ever thought about growing your own mulch (would be somewhat difficult on smaller allotments, but still possible)? I grow mulch species on the edges of my plantings which I trim regularly and just lay on top of the ground as mulch then mulch over the top when I can and add my home made compost etc... as for the rainfall - do you guys collect your rainwater? Even with the high rainfall I get, I have a 26,0000 litre tank, and I plan to double that shortly. You could put in heaps of tanks if you needed to, to suit your growing needs? I'm totally not familiar with your area, but surely someone out there would be doing it permaculture style and have a palm garden... maybe worth joining a permaculture club (we have them over here, which I'm a member of)?

Indeed, time, effort and money are always factors... but these factors can be overcome and lessened to an extent with planning and knowhow! As I was saying before, dudes (and dudets) with a decent amount of land should be growing their own mulch. This takes time, but saves a lot of money, and really, it isn't much effort. I see folks all the time over here mowing grass and dumping it and fighting with nature... it's the wrong thinking IMO. You got to work with it (I'm not a fan of lawns anyway). You'd have to use species that are going to work for you also. Lemon grass is an awesome example which is so hardy and would work over there I'm sure.

Sounds like you have it pretty much sorted anyway Len. Good to hear. I use liquid kelp with compost tea monthly at my place!

I totally agree that every place is different (obviously), and you got to work with what's best for your situation and what you have, but I still whole heartedly believe the organic solution is always the right choice! Folks just need to get educated properly about it (or should I say, re-educated about it, because it was all done like this back in the day and we've seem to have lost that link with nature).

[MattyB]

Kurt, that's interesting about growing your own mulch. I call it mulching in place. I cut up my prunings, palm fronds, etc, right there where I've pruned them and cut them into little pieces with my pruners and let them fall into the mulch below. Easy. My garden is fairly new, but still pretty big and I've never had to do a major prune job with tons of clippings to dispose of because I just prune as I go and let them drop right there. For huge pritchardia fronds and the like I just lay them down and mulch over them. This doesn't lend itself to a very manicured look like some who have city lots want to have. By the way, in order to make catching rainfall work here we'd need to collect it from a large surface area and have a small lake or pond. No amount of tanks are going to work for us when we have less than 10 inches of rain a year during the winter time only with long dry stretche up to 180 days at a time.

  On 1/13/2012 at 12:52 AM, trioderob said:

"My palms have grown incredibly fast in their first few years of growth"

matty- pm me and I will turn you on to a place to get "palm plus" for cheap.

toss it 4x a year on the palms

Triode, I don't think it's against the rules to say where to get fertilizer, stop acting wierd, you've already turned me on. 4 times a year, really? Dang dood, I fertilize no more than twice a year in my rainforest area, and one year I only did it once in summer. Maybe you're killing all of your soil microbes and that's why you're not getting the growth explosions that you want.

Which brings up a good point about the natural fauna of the soil. Gary may be on fluffy DG with 75 years of avocado leaf litter, but my hillside has never been cultivated or developed, ever. How many thousands and thousands of years has the native brush just been there growing green in the winter, drying out and breaking down over the summer, getting burned in fires, getting rabbit poo fertilizer, getting gopher aireated top soil brought to the surface, etc. At first glance I would call my soil anything but rich, but there's something going on in it. Greg Hamman commented on how he didn't fertilize for 10 years or so because he really didn't need to because the soil was full of micorizal fungi and all the natural things that plants wanted. When you walk the lower part of Greg's property and see the area that is still the native brush he's got the same sumac and sage brush that I do.

So to clarify, I'm not trying to go 100% organic, I'd just like to use as little synthetics as possible. Like Len was describing "spot treating" or a supplimental feeding every once in a while. I seem to fertilize a lot less than most people so something is working, but I want to make sure I have some minors, sans the nitrogen, so I can keep them from getting deficiencies. When I do fertilize with the synthetics, it's labor intensive because I have to locate every drip emitter by all of the plants, poke a deep hole, and drop the granular or tabs down there. I think it works really good, but it's a pain in the butt. If I can get some Kmag or Azmomite or whatever that stuff is called, I think I'll just throw it around and let it settle down through the mulch over winter rains and over time, essentially making it a slow release, breaking down along with the mulch cycle, because it's not being watered in every time I irrigate. That's the plan anyway.

[Mr Cycad]

  On 1/13/2012 at 3:07 AM, MattyB said:

Kurt, that's interesting about growing your own mulch. I call it mulching in place. I cut up my prunings, palm fronds, etc, right there where I've pruned them and cut them into little pieces with my pruners and let them fall into the mulch below. Easy. My garden is fairly new, but still pretty big and I've never had to do a major prune job with tons of clippings to dispose of because I just prune as I go and let them drop right there. For huge pritchardia fronds and the like I just lay them down and mulch over them. This doesn't lend itself to a very manicured look like some who have city lots want to have. By the way, in order to make catching rainfall work here we'd need to collect it from a large surface area and have a small lake or pond. No amount of tanks are going to work for us when we have less than 10 inches of rain a year during the winter time only with long dry stretche up to 180 days at a time.

I do exactly the same thing Matt. Lots of folks where I live are always picking up the fallen stuff (branches, twigs, fronds etc) and burn it, but I just chop it and put it down. As you put it - it's not as manicured as some would like, but it does good and serves a purpose and that's what I like. I'm going for the natural rustic look anyway.

10 inches only (250mm)! Wow, I had no idea it was that bad. I can't even imagine... tricky situation. Maybe even more the reason to put in a small tank off your roof so it doesn't go to waste?

[LJG]

  On 1/13/2012 at 2:57 AM, Mr Cycad said:

Have you guys ever thought about growing your own mulch (would be somewhat difficult on smaller allotments, but still possible)? I grow mulch species on the edges of my plantings which I trim regularly and just lay on top of the ground as mulch then mulch over the top when I can and add my home made compost etc... as for the rainfall - do you guys collect your rainwater? Even with the high rainfall I get, I have a 26,0000 litre tank, and I plan to double that shortly. You could put in heaps of tanks if you needed to, to suit your growing needs? I'm totally not familiar with your area, but surely someone out there would be doing it permaculture style and have a palm garden... maybe worth joining a permaculture club (we have them over here, which I'm a member of)?

I have actually. I have a spot out by my shed that is hidden and I was going to create a big area where I would save all green waste and run it through a chipper to get it down to a smaller size. Then have a sprinkler on it to where when a zone came on to water the garden, one sprinkler would hit it. Then I would mix it every so often. I just felt after thinking about it that it would have been too much work and not as pleasing to the eye for my garden. My yard is pretty manicured everywhere. If I had a larger place with jungle areas, I would reconsider it for sure.

For rain catchments, it is just not worth the cost to recycle to garden. As Matt said we get so little rain that once you fill up large containers, you could deplete them with a few waterings. The systems really are not that cheap. If I lived in a high rainfall area or someplace that had frequent rain to replenish them, I would use them for sure.

  On 1/13/2012 at 2:57 AM, Mr Cycad said:

I totally agree that every place is different (obviously), and you got to work with what's best for your situation and what you have, but I still whole heartedly believe the organic solution is always the right choice! Folks just need to get educated properly about it (or should I say, re-educated about it, because it was all done like this back in the day and we've seem to have lost that link with nature).

Back in the day they were not growing super tropical plants in a desert - like San Diego really is Many palms require extra effort to thrive here. But that too is off topic and another discussion.

Kurt, It sounds like you have a good thing going. It is great when you find balance. I am not there yet, but getting close. By the way, do you use organic pesticides and fungicides too? Just curious.

[Mr Cycad]

  On 1/13/2012 at 4:04 AM, LJG said:

Back in the day they were not growing super tropical plants in a desert - like San Diego really is Many palms require extra effort to thrive here. But that too is off topic and another discussion.

Indeed!

  On 1/13/2012 at 4:04 AM, LJG said:

Kurt, It sounds like you have a good thing going. It is great when you find balance. I am not there yet, but getting close. By the way, do you use organic pesticides and fungicides too? Just curious.

Yep, sure am. I only use my organic pesticides when I need to, which isn't often. I mainly do so at my nursery at my house back in Cairns where I have all my cycads in bags/pots. I don't ever uses fungicides (haven't had to yet). Although I have lost a few SA blues (I think it was because of re-potting). I had a few guys who visited from the South African Cycad Society last year and told me I should drench all the blues with fungicide before the onset of the rainy season and I might not lose as many (not losing many away really apart from most of my eugene's - northern blues are fine)? I haven't done so yet... I like the idea of planting Beneficial's to keep away the nasty insects/attract others that eat the pests is the go! Plus my veggie patch in closed in to keep most things out!

[Patrick]

I use a sul-po-mag from my local nursery that works pretty well to come up with those macros that you're looking for. I will look up the brand later, but it just takes care of those three.......

[Mandrew968]

This thread has too many words!

Matty, I understand that your decomposed granite has more minerals than my rock(you said sand, but you are mistaken--that's mainly Ft. Lauderdale)but I would still keep on fertilizing 4 times a year. I also use the same Vigoro that you do(I have told you that before). IMO palms in habitat don't look as good as when they are grown in a collector's garden. In cultivation, palms can recieve expert care and diligent maintenance. You say you want to slow your palms down? Ok--stop fertilizing. If something turns yellow, then treat it individually with fertilizer. 100% Organics are best for food consumption--I know you like to eat your palms, but I would advise only to go organic with the ones that are on the menu.

[Don]

DIEHARD™ Mycorrhizal Inoculants for transplanting and Horta-Sorb Water Management Gels.

This stuff works great for transplanting palms of any size and holes can be made around the rootball of palms that are established to fertilize and add essential microbes yearly. Check out the website, this has certainly helped my soil and my palms. This is not a cure all but does help.

[Gonzer]

  On 1/13/2012 at 7:59 AM, Patrick said:

I use a sul-po-mag from my local nursery that works pretty well to come up with those macros that you're looking for. I will look up the brand later, but it just takes care of those three.......

E B Stone makes a product by this name. Used especially before the onset of cold weather it can harden your plants and give a little more protection from cold damage. Their fertilizers, all organic, have an unusual texture/consistency that allows the product to filter through layers of mulch.

[MattyB]

I just found that eb stone sul po mag yesterday and threw down a whole box in the rain forrest area

[Gonzer]

Matty, I've been using their products for a few years now at home and work. The results have been very satisfactory. The Palm mix, when added to potting mixes is great for seedlings.

[Keith N Tampa (ex SoJax)]

Guys, I'm a huge fan of building your soil with organic additions. But, being in the fertilizer business, I also recognize the value of transporting concentrated "synthetic" fertilizers instead of very low concentration "organic". I put "organic" in qoutes because organic chemistry is the study of compounds that contain carbon. That isnt the case with the "organic" movement because they are focused on ther attributes such as better for the planet, healthier for humans, etc. You may encounter conditions that require continuous management and "synthetic" will make it easier. So I find it much more effective to use both. Use as much organic matter as you can (whether its a fertilizer or simply organic matter) build your soil, and supplement with the concentrated materials.

Sul-po- mag is the same thing as k- mag. Both are potassium- magnesium sulfate. If you can find it coated, you can probably just apply it once per year. Uncoated, it's hard to say how long it will last because availability is influenced by many factors.

[Bags]

My garden was completely organic for the first two years. I had well amended and mulched beds and applied a variety of what some would say were the best organic ferts. I lost several palms to nutrient deficiency and only a few palms looked very good. I have since switched to palm plus and the difference is significant. I am still applying organics occasionally such as kelp and fish emulsion. I have also used this rock dust http://www.fertilizeronline.com/rockdust.php . I can't say if it has made a difference, but I can say that I am no longer a believer in 100% organics although I don't think your garden will look its best without them.

[MattyB]

great stuff everyone thank you so much for all the information

[Tomw]

  On 1/13/2012 at 1:56 AM, LJG said:

  On 1/12/2012 at 11:49 PM, Mr Cycad said:

  On 1/12/2012 at 9:55 PM, LJG said:

Point being - palms need synthetic to look their best to stay healthy and fight off disease in my opinion.

I assume you mean, in your gardens where they don't naturally occur because of the quality of insitu soil or lack thereof (because habitat around the world tells us the exact opposite)? Because I totally disagree if not.

I never use 'synthetic' fertiliser at my place, and I haven't had any problems (I do use azomite (which I found out about on the cycad list a few years ago) and other things in new planting holes I dig to feed the soil microbiota). Sure, I live in a tropical environment where many palms occur naturally and the soil hasn't been destroyed & degraded by past generations. But all said, my father in-law has a working example at his place 1200kms south of me which use to be an old pineapple farm 30+ years ago, and was subtropical rainforest before that (it was cleared and felled for timber, much like the whole east coast of Australia). He too has never used 'synthetic' fertiliser with amazing results. Most people can't believe it, but then again, there are a lot of ignorant people (or maybe I should put it, 'people who are unaware'). He's place is the greenest in the neighborhood with the biggest trees, and it all has come down to hard work and lots of mulch amongst other things (and using good permaculture principals)! The native top soil there is pretty much nonexistent, washed away from years gone by. And under that is this terrible white shale rock. Mulching is a constant routine, but that is half the fun. Over the year a sweet black topsoil has built up while his canopy has grown and he can grow just about anything now. I bring down tropical's for him annually and they are all thriving there (Arenga , Calyptrocalyx, Hydriastele, Iguanura, Kentiopsis, Licuala, Pelagodoxa, Pinanga, Socratea etc)! I've talked him into using a few more things like azomite, but he has generally stuck to the old school principals of using composted chook poo from his pen, blood and bone, green manure & beneficial plantings etc.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is it's all about the soil and there is always an organic solution, despite what people say and do otherwise. I'm not going to lie, it is/was a lot of work, but that is life isn't it! What would you do otherwise? Keeps you fit and makes you feel good doing what is right. I also believe, some place you just shouldn't be trying to grow certain things as it's just a waste of time (you got to work with your conditions and understand the patterns, not against it - fundamental principal of permaculture).

Matt - lots of good info here already about organic sources for potassium (compost, wood ash, greensand etc). If you need a bit of a boost, you could get some sulfate of potash? You can also use liquid kelp which is quick release and the microbes love it! Isn't you place on granite? Granite dust is another thing...

Happy growing.

I thought we were discussing in situ soil considering palms in natural habitat seem to do fine (although I would argue they never look like they do in cultivation under quality care). In this case here we are discussing a Southern California garden. His soil and mine are DG. It drains very well but has little organics. I am sure you could spend tons of time and dollars to get the soil to where it needs to be for a nice organic palm garden but plants would look like hell for the years it would take. Even after that we get very little rainfall which adds to the toughness in keeping great organic soil. I would love to have greater rainfall like you to help quickly break down organics. It certainly makes things easier. Just my opinion but I still doubt you will ever reach the success of a garden here using synthetics by going 100% organic. In fact I would love to see a 100% organic garden here that people are proud of and then compare it to gardens using synthetic. And I am not talking about some vegetable garden, I am referring to a palm specific garden.

  On 1/12/2012 at 11:49 PM, Mr Cycad said:

I guess what I'm trying to say here is it's all about the soil and there is always an organic solution, despite what people say and do otherwise.

Of course. But I think it depends on time, effort and money. Throwing down mulch on a DG based soil isn't going to give you gold over night. In my garden I have dumped compost and mulch religiously since buying the lot in 2004. If I dig down I get about 4 - 5 inches of rich, black top soil that will have tons of worms. Then a very small transition area, then right to straight DG. Gary Levine's garden is one of the nicest DG soils you can get. It is loaded with organics from ~75 years of being on an avocado grove. He mulches each year too. He still uses Synthetic. If someone wants the warm fuzzy of 100% organic, more power to them. From my experience here, most that try always end up going back and using at least spot treatments with synthetics. I have found the people that get the closest here are those in clay based soils that they spent years amending.

I am personally a huge fan of organics and at one time had dreams of 100% organic in my garden. I ditched it as I believe the perfect solution is a balance of the two. I am currently about 75% organic now and 25% synthetic. I put in a fertigation unit and pump Green Ganic (from New Zealand - can't remember what it is called there) and lots of other liquid organics. Then once a year in Summer I run water soluble synthetic. It takes 6 - 8 weeks for my EZFlos to 'run dry'. Since it is low PPM it won't kill soil micro organisms like top dressing with granular can do over time. I also foliar feed my entire garden twice a year with Seaweed/Kelp. Plus I use mineral based stuff and alternate it every two years. In 2013 I will put green sand down. So far this is working great for me but I am always looking to improve. If there is something else out there, I have no issues trying it out.

Every place is different and each person will do what is best for them. There is not a 100% correct answer that works across the board. So while you say there is "always an organic solution", I would argue it doesn't always make it the right choice.

On a side note, Since we are on the subject I would love to hear if gardens in Florida or Hawaii for example can go 100% organic and look green.

This is a very interesting thread, great information. I’m sure this is a stupid question; but can someone tell me what DG is?

[Mr Cycad]

decomposed granite