One of the biggest mistakes in my garden

[Jastin]

I'm getting more mulch on Sat. and was wondering if I should pull my landscape fabric first.

I installed it thinking it would help with weeds, not thinking that it would prevent the soil structure from forming ( and the weeds are back ). Now I have created a barrier in between my mulch and my soil. The thing is is I've already tried to pull some and there are tons of palm roots running through it to the top. I don't want to damage the palms and set them back by ripping out the fabric but I hate to not have mulch directly on the soil.

So would you leave it for good? Would you pull it? Would you wait till Spring?

[Palmzilla]

I would pull it where its away from roots. The positive thing is that the roots seem to be able to penetrate the fabric just fine, so it probably wouldn't hurt to just leave it in place.

[Kostas]

I would also pull it where its away from the palms and leave about a meter circumference,or more, around the plants. Then i would replace all the good soil that was above it and mulch thickly. Come early spring,when growth will start,i would then remove all leftovers if its from plastic as it wont rot away. Here,some weed barriers sold are from plant fiber and completely biodegrade after some years. If yours is also solely from plant fiber,i would just leave it rot.

The reason i suggest doing it only partially now is to do the root damage in 2 different times with a few months between for some recovery/adjustment,but also because in winter,i would think that any root damage would weaken the more sensitive palm species. Also,species like Bismarckia which supposedly like it drier when cold,may develop rot at the damaged roots which wont be good if too close to the trunk.

I hope the removal goes well and the plants are unaffected

[JungleGina]

I hate that stuff! It just gives the weeds something to hold onto!

[Mandrew968]

People are always trying to get me to use that weed barrier stuff, but this thread shows me I will NEVER use it. I hear you on your big mistake, but you have kept me from ever making this mistake, so thank you for that!

Sorry to hear about your dilema...

[richnorm]

Removal will be a horrible job but if your soil is less than perfect probably well worth the effort for peace of mind alone. If you have a pick axe that helps get it off the ground. I score it into small pieces and lever it off. Just be careful where roots of desirable plants have formed over the top(ie leave those bits alone). I would set aside an hour a day for the time it takes to get rid of it as Kostas suggests. My place has areas of weedmat laid 20 years ago by a previous owner. I've removed most but when I discover a new patch the clay underneath is hideous and unmodified.

cheers

Richard

[nachocarl]

I wonder how far the roots will extend beyond where you have laid down the mat? I put weed mat over crappy soil, under black lava rock on a fairly steep hill, and I am still pulling weeds. I think if you are going put it down do not use the cheaper stuff, like I did , get the good stuff. I have several palms planted in the area that I will not be able to mulch so I guess the soil will remain the same, I will just need to make sure they are feed properly. The mat looks okay under black rock, the brown soil doesn't show through. The roots only need to travel about 5 ft down the hill until they hit well amended soil though.

[MattyB]

I only like using weed fabric under gravel walkways, or in xeric areas that have plants that are not particular about soil and where there are large areas that I want to be unplanted but still have no weeds. Otherwise, a thick mulch layer only, no weed fabric, and one first year of staying on top of spraying herbicide to knock down any weeds that pop up, will leave you with a weed free area and because there's no weed fabric, a healthier soil. But if you don't kill that first season's different species of weeds and allow them to reseed, you've wasted your time.

I've learned that unless you use the contractor grade weed fabric (I prefer the super thick, grey, fiber mesh stuff, and I got a huge roll of it at Costco that was way thicker than I've seen in the stores), then you're wasting your time. The cheaper stuff doesn't seem to allow air and moisture to flow through very well, but it still allows weeds to take hold, like Jastin's experiencing.

Also, when I plant in the weed fabric areas, I make sure and cut a large hole out, much larger than the pot I'm putting in. Unless it's a ground cover, then I simply plant in the mulch, on top of the fabric, and then go around with a sharp digging bar probe and poke holes around so the roots will find their way down eventually.

Jastin,

I'd suggest to just carefully cut a large circle around your palms or desireable plants, and then mulch. I'd leave the rest of the stuff to just rot away over the years and you can keep cutting it out as you plant stuff.

[Stevetoad]

my house had this around a ton of rose bushes. i was lucky that i wanted everything out any way and used a rototiller. it gets twisted around the blades but i just cut it off. i have weeds like no other but i figure if i plant more palms it will choke out the weeds....

[edbrown_III]

I would also pull it where its away from the palms and leave about a meter circumference,or more, around the plants. Then i would replace all the good soil that was above it and mulch thickly. Come early spring,when growth will start,i would then remove all leftovers if its from plastic as it wont rot away. Here,some weed barriers sold are from plant fiber and completely biodegrade after some years. If yours is also solely from plant fiber,i would just leave it rot.

The reason i suggest doing it only partially now is to do the root damage in 2 different times with a few months between for some recovery/adjustment,but also because in winter,i would think that any root damage would weaken the more sensitive palm species. Also,species like Bismarckia which supposedly like it drier when cold,may develop rot at the damaged roots which wont be good if too close to the trunk.

I hope the removal goes well and the plants are unaffected

Kostas , Good point , I made that same mistake on Butia Jubea the weed cloth is sort of embedded in the base of the trunk -- it doesnt seem to be hurting it but it is bothersome to me. Same thing has happened with Acrocomia and Phoenix in Pply pots sometimes they grow through the pot and into ground and the trees are so dad gum nasty you can really do much --- one of my friends had Acrcomia media seedlign do that . the palm grows so fast it total subsumed the pot.

Best regards

Ed Brown

[tank]

I use weed fabric all of the time and have never had issues with it. I agree with Matt, don't skimp on the cheap stuff. Also, even the more expensive cloth will break down over a few years (at least in FL). Beds that I applied weed cloth to and mulched 8+ years ago now have some of the richest soil in the yard. Most of the cloth has broken down and is gone. Not sure if the plastic in the soil is good for you (or for any other living thing) but I don't use weed cloth on my edibles. I have started using the biodegradable stuff as it has become available and it is supposedly plastic free.

[Jastin]

Thanks guys,

When I bought the stuff I had seen the cheap stuff not work so I went all out and bought the best one i could find (30 year) super thick but still allows air and water to get through.......I made a bowl out of the fabric and filled it with water to see how the water would seep out. The water doesn't move, it just sits there! so that means no water is getting to my roots that are a foot or so away from the trunks. There already is such an established root system on top of the fabric when I pulled some away from my Rhopi there must have been 3 hand fulls of roots that i tore out . I like the idea of cutting everything into small squares.

[Rafael]

People are always trying to get me to use that weed barrier stuff, but this thread shows me I will NEVER use it. I hear you on your big mistake, but you have kept me from ever making this mistake, so thank you for that!

Sorry to hear about your dilema...

Exactly my case

[Walter John]

Use cardboard instead of weed fabric imo.

[pindo]

Hi Jastin

I think you can do the following:

1 - for water to penetrate the fabric and go to the ground, drill fabric with a stick that has a sharp iron at the tip. This work can do it in a meter circle around the palms

This drilling will not damage seriously the roots, allowed to pass water and aerate the soil. Also begins to break down the fabric to its degradation

2 - The roots that crossed the fabric does not have problems and will continue to grow in the ground

3 - maybe you can make radial cuts in the fabric, with the center at the palm and away from a meter, with a sharp knife or cutter. To do this, you will have to gently move surface roots.

As more cuts in the fabric, more free space for the roots

These cuts, like the holes in point 1, deteriorate the fabric and facilitate their decomposition

Regards

[MattyB]

Just rip the roots, it won't hurt em.

[Jastin]

Just rip the roots, it won't hurt em.

I did with my rhopi and now its almost dead!

[Jastin]

Hi Jastin

I think you can do the following:

1 - for water to penetrate the fabric and go to the ground, drill fabric with a stick that has a sharp iron at the tip. This work can do it in a meter circle around the palms

This drilling will not damage seriously the roots, allowed to pass water and aerate the soil. Also begins to break down the fabric to its degradation

2 - The roots that crossed the fabric does not have problems and will continue to grow in the ground

3 - maybe you can make radial cuts in the fabric, with the center at the palm and away from a meter, with a sharp knife or cutter. To do this, you will have to gently move surface roots.

As more cuts in the fabric, more free space for the roots

These cuts, like the holes in point 1, deteriorate the fabric and facilitate their decomposition

Regards

Great advice! Sounds like a good idea and would allow me to not have to rip everything out

[Jastin]

Use cardboard instead of weed fabric imo.

I will be doing that for the summer crop!

[rprimbs]

I'm with Matt. I wouldn't worry too much about the roots. I use the heavy duty stuff myself around my front yard right in front of my house where I've got mainly trees. I just use coarse bark chips on top of it and I do pull it back -- in the spring -- and mulch, then stretch it back over the area that I don't want to have to weed. It basically works for me. I get a few weeds growing through it but nothing like I'd get without it.

[Stevetoad]

1325820876' post=505716]

1325805032' post=505689]

Use cardboard instead of weed fabric imo.

I will be doing that for the summer crop!

Do you just lay the cardboard down and mulch over it? This doesnt keep the water from running off? I've got boxes and weeds like crazy so this is very interesting to me...

[Jastin]

http://www.no-dig-vegetablegarden.com/lasagna-gardening.html

There are many ways to do it Steve, its great for weeds and for the plants! They call it Lasagna or Sheet composting.

[Stevetoad]

http://www.no-dig-ve...-gardening.html

There are many ways to do it Steve, its great for weeds and for the plants! They call it Lasagna or Sheet composting.

im boxing up my yard!!!

[MattyB]

Just rip the roots, it won't hurt em.

I did with my rhopi and now its almost dead!

Wow, I never would have expected that. Sorry for the bad advice.

[Jastin]

Just rip the roots, it won't hurt em.

I did with my rhopi and now its almost dead!

Wow, I never would have expected that. Sorry for the bad advice.

Haha, I took it as sarcasm, no worries. I was frustrated with the whole thing one day and decided to just rip it away from my Rhopi and regret it now which is why I'm worried about doing it to the other palms. I think its on the brink of death but MIGHT pull through. It doesn't help that there is a spray head right in front of it either.

[Jastin]

http://www.no-dig-ve...-gardening.html

There are many ways to do it Steve, its great for weeds and for the plants! They call it Lasagna or Sheet composting.

i'm boxing up my yard!!!

They also would work good for a temporary transplant, that way you can just plant the box. Lets just pack up your palms and bring them to my place, I'll provide the water and love.

[Stevetoad]

1325912875' post=506028]

1325877523' post=505852]

1325872337' post=505844]

http://www.no-dig-ve...-gardening.html

There are many ways to do it Steve, its great for weeds and for the plants! They call it Lasagna or Sheet composting.

i'm boxing up my yard!!!

They also would work good for a temporary transplant, that way you can just plant the box. Lets just pack up your palms and bring them to my place, I'll provide the water and love.

That's very kind of you. Ill be right over with boxes of washies for you to enjoy.

[Moose]

Just lay mulch down nice and thick - that helps to control the weeds.

Using the weed blocker cloth kinda negates the benefits of the mulch.

[trioderob]

that stuff is nasty.

I had it removed when i purchased the house.

the guy i hired kicked himself in the arse for taking on the job at a fixed price because it became a nightmare for him to remove.

its expensive, does not prevent weeds long term, starves the roots from O2, degrades and is heavy.

Edited March 27, 2013 by trioderob

[DoomsDave]

I've never used weed fabric, for the simple reason that it's a bit expensive to do a large area with it.

I just mulch with wood chips about an inch to two inches deep, then pull or spray with glyphosate as needed.

If you plant a lot of palms close together, they'll shade the ground and make it a lot harder for weeds to grow, with a few exceptions like baby tears, etc.

[Jastin]

Well I ripped it all out last year and my DD is still suffering. Its got a full spear halfway cracked open from last year that just wont open and another one that is growing pretty slow compared to the speed that it was growing before I jacked up all the roots. I have some heavy mulch on there so hopefully it will pull through this year. Its kind of leaning which makes me worry. Ill take some pics when the light in the sky turns on in the morning.

[monkeyranch]

I hope you Manambe pulls through. I've found they get grumpy with root disturbance but eventually recover if they were large enough and were sheltered from harsh sun and wind. Maybe a temporary, mini, bamboo lattice/arbor over it. Sort of a Palapa for your palm. Looks better than shade-cloth. Once you've made one, you can move it to other plants needing transitioning to sun.

Weed-barrier stuff is garbage, literally. After you have the fun of removing the inevitably disintegrating, petrochemical mess from your garden bed, it just becomes more crap for the landfill, which you get to pay for. Wow, I win twice! Nature outmaneuvers some of our convenience products and makes us do the work, either way. Thorough removal of weeds prior, and then a couple of layers of cardboard, topped with the mulch works well. Poke pitchfork tines into cardboard to assist drainage. A little tricky on slopes as the mulch tends to slide off the cardboard. Usually, just use mulch with persistent hand weeding in that case.

[Jastin]

I sprayed all the weeds about 6 times, put cardboard down and mulched about 3-4". The weeds are gone ad hopefully the DD survives. What do you think about how the DD leans? This is a weeks growth which is about the same as my prestoniana right now, my kentias are at least twice this amount. The tallest spear has been cracked like this for a year (4th pic).the last pic is the new 2 spears, the cracked one is to the left of the new spears in the last pic

[Jastin]

Any thoughts?

[Kathryn]

It is my understanding that Dypsis decipiens doesn't like all that moisture around it. When I planted mine, I put several inches of sand the several inches of pea gravel around it. I would remove all that mulch and some of the soil if possible and backfill with sand/gravel.

[MattyB]

I never liked the look of that DD Jastin. It just screamed "weak plant" to me. That said, the leaning doesn't bother me at this point. A lot of my plants lean towards the SW. The unopened spear and those brown tips may indicate some root rot going on though. I've lost several that wouldn't open the spears and eventually rotted out, even though they were in well draining soil. If it starts to lean more and more, but it's still solid in the ground, you probably have a dweezle forming underneath and it'll abandon that original stem and push out something from below. Just something to keep an eye on. I'm not sure you can do anything.

[Jastin]

I was thinking about taking away the mulch for that reason but it would look kind of funny with the mulch around everything else. It was a skinny DD when I bought it from Rancho a little over 2 years ago but as soon as I planted it it dropped 2 leaves due to it getting fatter. It was pushing around a 1/3" a day before I tore up the roots. Didnt think of the brown tips being rot but thats a good point Matt. I fear it wont make it and I would be really bummed because I planted it for my first son.

I really dont want to have to add this to the " whats the most expensive palm youve killed" thread.

Any sort of drench I could use?