Chamaerops humilis problem I need advice on

[Walt]

A distant neighbor became concerned about her Chamaerops humilis palm she's had planted now for some years, and asked me if I would take a look at it and see what I thought. I have no experience with this species (I don't have one).

What I observed is that the undersides of the leaflets are not green like the upper sides (as can be seen in the photos), but appear to have some kind of waxey or scale covering of sorts.

The only insects I saw were lots of small spider-like things burrowed in the moist dead frond bases still clinging to the trunk. I didn't see any insects on the fronds.

When my neigbor runs here lawn irrigation the trunk becomes wet. I told her that is not a good thing. However, she told me she only irrigates once a week during the winter months, and I think she irrigated just before I took these photos.

The bases of the petioles looked somewhat blackish, like sooty mold, but I'm not sure.

Can anyone here, based on my photos and their experiences, offer any advice and suggestions, etc.?

Her next door neighbor has a couple of Chamaerops humilis and they look much healthier. I will post a photo of them following this post.

[Walt]

Below is photo of neighbor's two Chamaerops humilis:

[stygiana]

From what I saw there is nothing to worry about. There are many distinct varieties of Chamaerops humilis, some with green underside, other with grey (not to be confused with "cerifera"/"argentea" variants from Morocco). Others with a denser crown of leaves, others quite skiny and sparce. Long petioles, short petioles, etc.

A closer shot would confirm it. We had plenty of similar ones at Le Rayol, but I don't know where this form comes from (Algeria? Balearic islands? elsewhere? no idea).

Edited December 13, 2011 by Sebastian Bano

[paulgila]

i agree with sebastian,the waxy substance on the bottom of the leaves is normal,nothing to be concerned about.

[stygiana]

A closer shot would confirm it.

Well, no need for a closer look: I only quickly had a look with my laptop firt, but now I have it full screen on my monitor and it's just the typical grey found under some forms of humilis. Your neighbour can relax.

[Walt]

A closer shot would confirm it.

Well, no need for a closer look: I only quickly had a look with my laptop firt, but now I have it full screen on my monitor and it's just the typical grey found under some forms of humilis. Your neighbour can relax.

I thank you both for your fast replies. I will have to confirm this with my neighbor (she's supposed to email me tonight, as I was going to send her the link to this posting), but she told me her palm just didn't look right, but she didn't specifically tell me just how it didn't look right. I'm thinking the crown/frond spread isn't full like it should be. It seemed to me most of the new fronds were bunched up and shorter (somewhat stunted) that what them should be, although, again, I'm not familar with this species.

If you both notice in my first photo (overall view of palm) the lower fronds and petioles are longer, whereas the newer top ones are shorter. But of course, I realize the newer top ones are probably not fully grown in length yet, and will get longer as them begin their downward and out movement.

In any event, at least I now know the stuff on the lower side of the leaflets is normal, I guess a glaucous covering or something akin to it.

[Nico94]

Chamerops you are very beautiful.I would like the same on my terrace.I have the same variety,but they are very small.

[stygiana]

If you both notice in my first photo (overall view of palm) the lower fronds and petioles are longer, whereas the newer top ones are shorter. But of course, I realize the newer top ones are probably not fully grown in length yet, and will get longer as them begin their downward and out movement.

For how long this palm has been in the ground?

This could give the answer to your question about petiole's lengh.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Sebastian Bano

[DoomsDave]

Walt:

You're a good friend for helping out your friend with the concerns.

But, it appears to me that the specimen is a variant that has nice silver coloration under the leaves.

Very nice, I would add.

Hmm. Get yourself one of the silver kind, like a mini-bizzie with branches. Very nice!

[Walt]

If you both notice in my first photo (overall view of palm) the lower fronds and petioles are longer, whereas the newer top ones are shorter. But of course, I realize the newer top ones are probably not fully grown in length yet, and will get longer as them begin their downward and out movement.

For how long this palm has been in the ground?

This could give the answer to your question about petiole's lengh.

Sabastian: I will ask the lady how long her Chamaerops has been planted, just as soon as she emails me, as I don't have her email address. I gave her my card today prior to her having to go to work. I should hear back from her later today or perhaps tomorrow. I also want to query her has to just what she meant when she told me her palm just doesn't look the same (it looked better) as it once did.

[Walt]

Walt:

You're a good friend for helping out your friend with the concerns.

But, it appears to me that the specimen is a variant that has nice silver coloration under the leaves.

Very nice, I would add.

Hmm. Get yourself one of the silver kind, like a mini-bizzie with branches. Very nice!

Dave: I told the lady just today that I wanted to get a multiple trunked Chamaerops humlis to replace the funky bottle palm (that refuses to grow and is out of my hardiness zone) in front of my house.

I never got around to getting a C. humilis because for one, they aren't that readily availble in my area and two, when I did find them they were smaller than I wanted. I want instant gratification, or at least close to instant gratification. I don't feel like waiting five years or so to get something up to respectable size. Further, a new C. humilis would be a main staple of my front yard landscape; hence, I want something that looks well established.

I've read about the variants in this species but I haven't clue as to what we have around here. If it looks good I will get it, regardless of variety.

[DoomsDave]

Walt:

From what you said, get the biggest you can get.

The silver kind are great, but they're slow.

I'd go ahead on post on Palms Wanted and see what you can come up with.

They're native to the Mediterranean, so you will likely have to be careful about too much moisture, though your neighbor's specimens look nice.

I don't recall seeing any around your neck of the woods, either.

You can always go with Serenoa repens or Acelleraphe wrightii. I'll bet large ones of those can be found where you are, albeit a bit on the expensive side.

Dave

[mjff]

I agree with Dave. An Acoelorraphe wrightii would give you a similar look and probably be better adapted to your climate. Of course, your neighbor's seem to be doing just fine. They normally have multiple trunks, is she cutting off the suckers?

[JimStPete]

Walt, I've never seen these palms sold at the big box stores. But the local nursery's here in ST Pete all seem to have them (some small, some larger). I've purchased two clumps that were a respectable size for around $100 each (approx 4' tall to the tip of the tallest leaf). Try looking at some of your local nursery's to find a nice one for your front yard. Mine have only been in the ground for 1 year now, but they've both grown very well and the increase in size over the one year period is very noticeable. The nursery I puchased mine from had larger ones (8' tall) for $150). You have to pay a high price for them, but at least you'll know for sure the cold weather will never bother them here. They really are a beautiful palm!

[Walt]

Walt:

From what you said, get the biggest you can get.

The silver kind are great, but they're slow.

I'd go ahead on post on Palms Wanted and see what you can come up with.

They're native to the Mediterranean, so you will likely have to be careful about too much moisture, though your neighbor's specimens look nice.

I don't recall seeing any around your neck of the woods, either.

You can always go with Serenoa repens or Acelleraphe wrightii. I'll bet large ones of those can be found where you are, albeit a bit on the expensive side.

Dave

Dave: I think a multiple trunked C. humilis would fill the bill for me, with respect to where I want it planted and the scale of it. I don't want a big palm, as I want it to replace a bottle palm which resides there now. I only had the bottle palm planted two years ago. Withing months it started to decline. I have no idea why. What I do know is that the Hyophorbe genus doesn't want to grow for me. It's not a question of cold hardiness, because I protect them. It's got to be something in my soil. I've planted and lost two H. verchaffeltii, one H. lagenicaulis (with the one in question starting to follow suit), and one H. indica.

As far as Serenoa repens, these things grow like weeds on my property. I try to clean some of them up so that they look more ornamental. Also, I have several clumps of Paurotis palms (not native, but introduced by me). But the fact is, I don't have C. humilis, and I'd like to get a nice one to add to my palm species count. I will have one by early spring of 2012, it not sooner.

Above: Pathetic bottle palm that only produced one full frond the entire year! I want to replace it with a multiple trunked C. humilis

Above: Alternate view of bottle palm. It only produced one full frond this year, and the partially opened spear has been like this for 4-5 months. I've had it with this palm, and I will yank it out and repot it and see if it recovers. If so, that would indicate something in the soil, possibly nematodes attacking the roots.

Above: Paurotis palm I bought as a 3 gallon at Walmart many, many moons ago (probably 10-12 years ago). It's pretty much bullet proof for my climate, in terms of cold hardiness.

Above: This is the largest semi-vertical clumping Serenoa repens I have on my property. I have several more smaller semi-vertical clumps. The rest are of the creeping across the ground form. Serenoa repens would be one of the last species of palms I would ever buy. To do so would be like carrying coals to New Castle or sand to Florida. I have bought the silver form, however, as that form isn't native to my county.

[Walt]

I agree with Dave. An Acoelorraphe wrightii would give you a similar look and probably be better adapted to your climate. Of course, your neighbor's seem to be doing just fine. They normally have multiple trunks, is she cutting off the suckers?

I don't know if she is cutting off suckers. Further, I didn't see any evidence of suckers emerging. I will ask her, though.

[Walt]

Walt, I've never seen these palms sold at the big box stores. But the local nursery's here in ST Pete all seem to have them (some small, some larger). I've purchased two clumps that were a respectable size for around $100 each (approx 4' tall to the tip of the tallest leaf). Try looking at some of your local nursery's to find a nice one for your front yard. Mine have only been in the ground for 1 year now, but they've both grown very well and the increase in size over the one year period is very noticeable. The nursery I puchased mine from had larger ones (8' tall) for $150). You have to pay a high price for them, but at least you'll know for sure the cold weather will never bother them here. They really are a beautiful palm!

Jim: I deal with a nursery here in Highlands County that I'm sure can get me a fairly large C. humilis at a fair price, as I've bought fairly big palms from them before (and they delivered and planted them). I'm going to check with them about it, maybe even before the week is out. For sure I will never have to worry about cold damage.

I recorded my all-time lowest open-yard temperature last December in the 14 years I've lived here. I even had six nights below 30 degrees, and three of those nigths were below 25 degrees. I've never seen anything like it. I read in our local paper last week that December of 2010 was the coldest on record for Florida and Georgia (overall monthly temperature).

[JimStPete]

Walt, I've never seen these palms sold at the big box stores. But the local nursery's here in ST Pete all seem to have them (some small, some larger). I've purchased two clumps that were a respectable size for around $100 each (approx 4' tall to the tip of the tallest leaf). Try looking at some of your local nursery's to find a nice one for your front yard. Mine have only been in the ground for 1 year now, but they've both grown very well and the increase in size over the one year period is very noticeable. The nursery I puchased mine from had larger ones (8' tall) for $150). You have to pay a high price for them, but at least you'll know for sure the cold weather will never bother them here. They really are a beautiful palm!

Jim: I deal with a nursery here in Highlands County that I'm sure can get me a fairly large C. humilis at a fair price, as I've bought fairly big palms from them before (and they delivered and planted them). I'm going to check with them about it, maybe even before the week is out. For sure I will never have to worry about cold damage.

I recorded my all-time lowest open-yard temperature last December in the 14 years I've lived here. I even had six nights below 30 degrees, and three of those nigths were below 25 degrees. I've never seen anything like it. I read in our local paper last week that December of 2010 was the coldest on record for Florida and Georgia (overall monthly temperature).

The last 3 years have definitely been unusually cold for us in Florida. Of course the winter of 2009-10 was the absolute worst, not so much because of the lowest temperature (it got down to 27.8 at my place), it was the 10 weeks straight of well below 70 degree temps. From the beginning of January 2010 (when the real freeze happened) it did not get above 70 until mid March. That has never happened before in my area. My one coconut palm survived the freeze in a protected spot, but slowly but surely it started to look bad about 4 weeks later and then by march it was a crispy critter! My Adonidia's also survived the freeze without any damage to the leaves (they were under a Live Oak canapy). But about 3 weeks later the leaves had a funny looking color to them and a month after that the leaves were all dead and the smell of death around them let me know I'd have to remove them. Last year, we went below freezing (30.4), and the winter of 2008-2009 we also got down to 30.6. We have never had back to back (or three in a row) below 32 degree winters since I've moved here in 1989. There was always 5-6 years of 10a winters (no freeze) and then the 9b winter would hit reliably after that. But now we've had three in a row. That's why I'm no longer planting tropical palms and have started planting lots of the hardier ones. Once the hardier ones get bigger, I'll be removing all the foxtails and king palms. The Royals are a lot tougher and always come back strong after a freeze so I'm keeping them!

I have always admired your stamina in planting tropical palms in your inland location! All the work you put in to protect them was simply amazing! There are a lot of absolutely beautiful hardy palms that take longer to get big, but it's fun to watch them grow. Of course we'd all love to be able to grow the very fast growing, beautiful tropical palms, but inevitably they get severely damaged and never look really good again or they croak completely because they just don't belong in our climate zone. You're south of me, but far away from the water, so you get more freezes than we do here on the coast, but eventually the cold gets us too!

[Walt]

Walt, I've never seen these palms sold at the big box stores. But the local nursery's here in ST Pete all seem to have them (some small, some larger). I've purchased two clumps that were a respectable size for around $100 each (approx 4' tall to the tip of the tallest leaf). Try looking at some of your local nursery's to find a nice one for your front yard. Mine have only been in the ground for 1 year now, but they've both grown very well and the increase in size over the one year period is very noticeable. The nursery I puchased mine from had larger ones (8' tall) for $150). You have to pay a high price for them, but at least you'll know for sure the cold weather will never bother them here. They really are a beautiful palm!

Jim: I deal with a nursery here in Highlands County that I'm sure can get me a fairly large C. humilis at a fair price, as I've bought fairly big palms from them before (and they delivered and planted them). I'm going to check with them about it, maybe even before the week is out. For sure I will never have to worry about cold damage.

I recorded my all-time lowest open-yard temperature last December in the 14 years I've lived here. I even had six nights below 30 degrees, and three of those nigths were below 25 degrees. I've never seen anything like it. I read in our local paper last week that December of 2010 was the coldest on record for Florida and Georgia (overall monthly temperature).

The last 3 years have definitely been unusually cold for us in Florida. Of course the winter of 2009-10 was the absolute worst, not so much because of the lowest temperature (it got down to 27.8 at my place), it was the 10 weeks straight of well below 70 degree temps. From the beginning of January 2010 (when the real freeze happened) it did not get above 70 until mid March. That has never happened before in my area. My one coconut palm survived the freeze in a protected spot, but slowly but surely it started to look bad about 4 weeks later and then by march it was a crispy critter! My Adonidia's also survived the freeze without any damage to the leaves (they were under a Live Oak canapy). But about 3 weeks later the leaves had a funny looking color to them and a month after that the leaves were all dead and the smell of death around them let me know I'd have to remove them. Last year, we went below freezing (30.4), and the winter of 2008-2009 we also got down to 30.6. We have never had back to back (or three in a row) below 32 degree winters since I've moved here in 1989. There was always 5-6 years of 10a winters (no freeze) and then the 9b winter would hit reliably after that. But now we've had three in a row. That's why I'm no longer planting tropical palms and have started planting lots of the hardier ones. Once the hardier ones get bigger, I'll be removing all the foxtails and king palms. The Royals are a lot tougher and always come back strong after a freeze so I'm keeping them!

I have always admired your stamina in planting tropical palms in your inland location! All the work you put in to protect them was simply amazing! There are a lot of absolutely beautiful hardy palms that take longer to get big, but it's fun to watch them grow. Of course we'd all love to be able to grow the very fast growing, beautiful tropical palms, but inevitably they get severely damaged and never look really good again or they croak completely because they just don't belong in our climate zone. You're south of me, but far away from the water, so you get more freezes than we do here on the coast, but eventually the cold gets us too!

Jim: St. Pete, especially around the Albert Whitted Airport, is oft times warmer than S.E. Florida during the coldest days of winter. It's definitely the warmest (nighttime lows) that I've seen on the central Florida west coast.

Out here in the interior, the warmest areas are lake side and high ground areas on the Lake Wales Ridge. Downtown Lake Placid runs 10 degrees warmer than my place, just one mile down the long grade. Up in town is 70 feet higher than at my place, and it makes all the difference in the world on radiational cooling nights (still air and clear sky) that comprise 95% of our coldest nights.

Since I moved here in late 1997 I have yet to have an advective (windy) cooling night that caused freeze damage. The last windy freezing night I had was in late January of 2003, when my low was 29.5 degrees. Only the uppermost 1/3 of the highest frond on my travellers palm got dessicated. Since there was wind I got no frost.

Using data from Weather Underground personal weather stations, FAWN sites, Archbold Biological Station weather station, and others, I've seen low temperatures out here vary by 20 or more degrees, depending on location (extreme low areas, lake side area, high ground areas). Archbold Biological Station (eight miles south of Lake Placid) recorded a low of 16 degrees last December on the night I recorded 20.8 degrees (open yard), my all-time recored low, which eclipsed my January 5, 2001 22 degrees low.

I checked Accuweather's 15-day forecast and there's no freezes in sight. Yet, last December I had my first (and earliest) freeze by December 7th. By this date last year my garden had been wiped out.

I plan to make a posting in a week or so showing a "Then and Now" photo album of what my garden looked like (palm by palm) after the December 2010 freezes and what they look like now after 12 months of recovery.

Sorry to hear about your palm losses. I lost a couple of foxtails and about a half dozen king palms to the December 2010 freezes. My coconut palm survived because I protected the trunk and meristem. Hopefully, I can keep it alive indefinitely if I continue to protect it each winter. Thus far I've kept it alive for 5-6 winters now.

[wimmie]

I agree with Dave. An Acoelorraphe wrightii would give you a similar look and probably be better adapted to your climate. Of course, your neighbor's seem to be doing just fine. They normally have multiple trunks, is she cutting off the suckers?

Martin, there is a variety of Chamaerops that doesn't produce suckers; it is called arborescens. I have three of them in containers, two of them for more than thirty years.

Wim.