What are your thoughts on planting seedlings?

[Bags]

I do not have a greenhouse and my shade house is not in a particularly warm spot, so I struggle with palms under a gallon size. After hearing of people having success planting seedlings I have started planting everything as an experiment. If the palm is not ready for sun I tent it with shade cloth. I started this spring and obviously I have to go through a few winters before I declare success, but the stuff I planted is doing great, while the stuff in pots is doing ok but not great. I would say as a general rule palms are much better off in the ground, but seedlings may be different. Any thoughts on the subject?

[Bags]

So far this is what I have planted. All 4'' size or less:

Dypsis Ovobontsira

Basselinia Humboltiana

Kentiopsis Magnifica

Dypsis sp. White

bentinckia condapanna (large 4'')

Dypsis Oropedionis

Dypsis Hovomantsina

So far no losses.

[porkchop]

I will have to agree .... I had a Syagrus botryophora that was in a 1gal pot for about a year, not doing much. No real new growth. I was kind of fed up with it (not showing the growth you had described with yours), so I placed it in the ground. I swear within 2 weeks of planting new fronds had emerged. Its been in the ground 2 months now and its a night & day difference with this palm (I think I have the initial planting photos .... I'll have to look). I'm going to try this theory out with some other slugs that should be rockets. Happy planting

[quaman58]

My two cents..Seedlings are generally much more tender than larger plants, obviously. Here in SoCal, there's a lot more potential trauma due to sun exposure, or cold, so you have to really think through where you're going to put them. Especially if it's a hard to replace palm. Someone growing a palm in full sun in Hilo doesn't mean it will do well in sun here. So on small palms, if I really want them in the ground, it's generally in filtered light, in areas that retain water. With few exceptions, I assume that they're nearly all emergent types, germinated in the undergrowth. I also take into account the rate of growth of a species when making the determination. Asking my 5" tall Dysis sp. white (which is glacially slow), to endure years of exposure to SoCal elements while it gets to 1 gallon size, is a certain eventual trip to the compost pile for it. I've got a good friend who throws stuff in the ground as early as he can. A lot of stuff just takes off, but about 1/4 of what he plants either gets killed due to the elemnts, or is in such distress he re-pots it to recover. I can't bring myself into doing that with hard to get plants.

[ErikSJI]

I do not have a greenhouse and my shade house is not in a particularly warm spot, so I struggle with palms under a gallon size. After hearing of people having success planting seedlings I have started planting everything as an experiment. If the palm is not ready for sun I tent it with shade cloth. I started this spring and obviously I have to go through a few winters before I declare success, but the stuff I planted is doing great, while the stuff in pots is doing ok but not great. I would say as a general rule palms are much better off in the ground, but seedlings may be different. Any thoughts on the subject?

I have a friend that is using a kiddie pool. He drilled holes in the bottom to allow the water to come out. He places it in a warm spot in the yard and places shade cloth right over the top of it with bungee cords. He even sections it off with small boards for other types of seeds he may be planting. It is like a mini seedling garden. He says it has worked quite well for him compared to just growing them in pots.

[bgl]

I have planted thousands of palms out as seedlings. It's great to get them in the ground early. BUT, I have also lost LOTS of them, for a variety of reasons. And some of those reasons may not necessarily apply to others. If you plant them in an area with grass, and you have someone mow grass, or do weedwhacking, WHOOOPS, there went another little palm, and you won't even know about it. For a while anyway. In other cases I lost seedlings in the ground because other larger (and faster growing) palms would "hog" all the rain, and the little seedling would dry out. Again, for someone who has irrigation installed, may not be an issue. Here in Leilani Estates we rely 100% on rainfall. There is also the issue of debris falling onto seedlings. Tree branches, or whatever from larger trees and plants. If fast growing weeds happen to be a major problem (which they are here) then it's VERY easy for a little seedling to simply "disappear" among the taller weeds. Sometimes being completely crowded out. These days, wise from past mistakes, I don't plant out ANYTHING from a 4 inch pot. Ideally, I like to get the palm up to a decent 5 gallon size. That means a plant that is at least 2.5-3 ft tall. Then it's at a size where it can "fend for itself". Again, this is all based on conditions here. Could be very different in a smaller garden in a different location.

[Kim]

I've seen photos of your place and know that it is meticulously maintained. However, as noted by Bret, seedlings are generally more tender than a larger plant. I would expect mixed results; in other words, some of those palms you listed will establish themselves without difficulty, while others will simply languish, and eventually turn brown and die, whether from cold, too wet, too dry, or some fungal disease, you may never know. I used to plant out tiny palms; only a few of those are alive today, all of them far more common than what you have listed. Even in Hawaii, I am a little concerned for some tiny Dypsis my brother planted from 4" pots, and those are perfect conditions. Evaluate what you are willing to lose before you take the risk.

[sarasota alex]

I also have been planting some seedlings because I have no longer any room for pots out in the lanai. It was mostly successful. Even a Florida-soil-and-climate-hating Trachycarpus fortunei is very happy in the ground after being planted out as a 2-month old seedling in June of 2010, while the other seedlings from the same batch growing in pots in the lanai died this summer.

Also I've been enjoying a pretty good germination rate by just burying seeds under the mulch in the spring. Saves me the trouble of dealing with seedlings. Of course then an adequate rabbit protection is required.

[MattyB]

I think that if you have a small garden, that is well manicured, you can closely watch and maintain the small seedlings, and if they were going to be left outside (no greenhouse) anyways, that planting the smallies right out might work. However, I've found that because they are so small that they are incredibly suseptible to:

1. drying out/not tapping into the drip system deep watering

2. being eaten by earwigs, potato bugs, other pests

3. being burried by the constant migration of mulch down my hill

4. rotting due to being burried too deep due to moving soil/mulch

That said, I did plant out a 1 gallon size Dypsis ambositrae this weekend as a test. I'm hoping that this palm is tough enough to make it from a 1 gallon. But under that size is just asking for death in my opinion.

[sonoranfans]

I think it depends on the palm, the environment, and the soil. In sandy soil regions, a container palm is easier to keep moist. The container can also be protected in winter from cold and strong winds more easily. I have two examples that did much better in a container. Kentiopsis oliviformis and sabal domingensis. the containerized plants, now in 15 gallons after a year are 2x the size and obviously more mature. So I would say it depends on several factors so there is no general rule. Life is like that sometimes, no "general rule". My general rule for my yard is that they stay in containers till they are at least 3-15 gallon size depending on species. I never plant out bare rooted p[alms right away as they have no root systems. Those take 6 months to a year or more of developing root systems

Edited August 22, 2011 by sonoranfans

[realarch]

To add to the above, I think you also have a better chance of seedling survival if their roots have totally filled and are practically busting out of their liner or 4" plastic pot.

At least that's been my experience with purchased seedlings that had to go into the ground because of being off island for several months.

The ones I've grown from seed usually don't go in the ground until they are at least healthy 1 gal. plants with roots coming out of the drain openings. They just seem healthier

and grow faster being a bit larger.

[Bags]

Thats good info...Here are some of my thoughts on the comments.

1.The weeds are a non issue at my place and much easier to control than in HI and I am always keeping an eye on the mulch to make sure it does not bury the seedlings.

2.Seedlings can not take the sun so I either plant them in a filtered sun location or put temporary shade cloth over them

3. Water is controlled through drip irrigation to each plant and my soil is rich in organics and drains well. For me the watering is much more

irregular in pots.

4. Just an opinion about the cold, but the ground stays much warmer than the air during winter and a pot would cool down more than the ground as well so wouldn't they take the cold better in the ground than outside in a pot?

5. I agree it seems much better to plant a palm out after it has rooted out its pot. A lot less trauma to the roots and the bigger root system the better.

6. I wonder about the fungal issues. Nature has a way of balancing out with the good and bad stuff keeping each other in check. Pots can create an un natural environment that can be out of balance.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions on the matter. Mostly I am trying to convince myself I am doing the right thing.

I heard at a recent palm society meeting in El Cajon that most of the plants were planted very small with good success. I missed it unfortunately

[Bags]

Plus you Hawaii guys don't count. We all know thats not real gardening.

[Trópico]

I agree with you on the general rule of palms doing better in the ground than in pots. An obvious reason is the waterlogging that occurs at the bottom of the pot, and rootbound palms that get their growth limited.

However...

The threat of a freeze is what keeps my plants in pots for the longest amount of time. I can haul a valuable palm indoors in a few seconds. Protecting an inground palm takes a considerable amount of effort and the larger the palm, the better the chances of surviving.

Considering that ground is like a pot the diameter of the size of the Earth, potting up is the next best way of speeding up a palm's growth.

I also tend to like terracotta pots because these help in draining better than plastic pots.

As far as ground being a more natural environment than pots, consider that nature can also "find a way" to balance out the unnatural, which is the palm that you're growing where it doesn't naturally grow. So, have the palm be of an appropriate size so that it would fend for itself better than a tender seedling would.

Edited August 22, 2011 by Trópico

[sonoranfans]

Thats good info...Here are some of my thoughts on the comments.

1.The weeds are a non issue at my place and much easier to control than in HI and I am always keeping an eye on the mulch to make sure it does not bury the seedlings.

2.Seedlings can not take the sun so I either plant them in a filtered sun location or put temporary shade cloth over them

3. Water is controlled through drip irrigation to each plant and my soil is rich in organics and drains well. For me the watering is much more

irregular in pots.

4. Just an opinion about the cold, but the ground stays much warmer than the air during winter and a pot would cool down more than the ground as well so wouldn't they take the cold better in the ground than outside in a pot?5. I agree it seems much better to plant a palm out after it has rooted out its pot. A lot less trauma to the roots and the bigger root system the better.

6. I wonder about the fungal issues. Nature has a way of balancing out with the good and bad stuff keeping each other in check. Pots can create an un natural environment that can be out of balance.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions on the matter. Mostly I am trying to convince myself I am doing the right thing.

I heard at a recent palm society meeting in El Cajon that most of the plants were planted very small with good success. I missed it unfortunately

This(bold type on cold and pots) is true.... but when its in a pot you can bring them inside the garage or under the porch. I had dypsis pembana, 2 in the ground for 4 months, one in a pot when winter hit last year. The 2 in the ground were killed by frost even though covered with 2 layers of sheets. the one in the pot is in the ground as of 2 months ago and its alive and 4' overall in a warm spot. A lesson here is that small palms are not as cold hardy as large ones. So if you have anything that is close to borderline(within 3 degrees or so), keep it in a pot longer and bring it into the porch in winter till it gets some size and then plant it out.

As far as keeping pots well watered, this is easily solved by watering them on a hose timer/sprinkler, $20 at home improvement store. In a pot the fertilizer and water are held close. Of course this is also true of clay or heavy soils. It sure isnt true in florida sandy soils.... I grew palms for 10 years in arizona in clay soils. In that environment, I planted them out earlier as the soils were heavy clay, it didnt dry out quickly.

Edited August 22, 2011 by sonoranfans

[sonoranfans]

I agree with you on the general rule of palms doing better in the ground than in pots. An obvious reason is the waterlogging that occurs at the bottom of the pot, and rootbound palms that get their growth limited.

However...

The threat of a freeze is what keeps my plants in pots for the longest amount of time. I can haul a valuable palm indoors in a few seconds. Protecting an inground palm takes a considerable amount of effort and the larger the palm, the better the chances of surviving.

Considering that ground is like a pot the diameter of the size of the Earth, potting up is the next best way of speeding up a palm's growth.

I also tend to like terracotta pots because these help in draining better than plastic pots.

As far as ground being a more natural environment than pots, consider that nature can also "find a way" to balance out the unnatural, which is the palm that you're growing where it doesn't naturally grow. So, have the palm be of an appropriate size so that it would fend for itself better than a tender seedling would.

The water logging at the bottom of the pot is easily remedied by increasing the perlite content of the soil towards the bottom of the pot. I had the same observation, and the solution is to reduce the capacity of the soil to hold water at the bottom 2-3" of the pot.

[Kim]

Bags, you can talk yourself into whatever you want, but will your palms listen?

Even in Hawaii, I potted up my Bentinckia condapannas, from 4-inch pots to 1-gallons. When I go back and the root system is well developed in that larger pot, then they can go in the ground. Look back at any posts you may have made in the dark days of winter and evaluate which palms can really take that punishment at this small size. Your #4, while true, the ground is probably warmer, it may still be too cold for a very small palm, so much easier to move a pot into the garage during a cold spell.

Edit: I recall you planted some palms and other plants in December last year, how did that work out for you? Maybe I am overly cautious.

[MattyB]

I think you've got all of the issues licked except the Winter moisture issue which leads to rot. A pot, even if it's left out in the rain, will dry out faster than the ground, and if you've got them under the eves you can keep them out of the rain completely. I really have to re-train myself to back way off of my pot watering once it gets cold. It's almost like they don't even need "water", they just want to say slightly moist or not completely dry out. If they stay wet for more than a week at a time is when I notice them rotting. This can be combatted with a very light potting mix, which is a biotch once Summer hits, but you don't get as much Winter rot. But in the dirt those seedlings are a lot more prone to rot. Can you do it? Maybe, but a 4" D. sp. white in the ground in the Winter just sounds like a bad idea to me.

[Gtlevine]

Generally speaking I would not plant seedlings. They are more succeptable to fungus, gophers, weather, etc..... But I had one remaining Moratia cerifera left over last year after the rest of them died in the greenhouse. I also found out all my freinds were losing their Moratia's that were babied in greenhouses, so I planted it in the ground. It's been a full year and this seedling went right through the winter and is growing really strong for me, so that is one exception to my rule.

GAry

[Dypsisdean]

Have you met, or been to the garden of "One Gallon Jim?"

[Stevetoad]

Have you met, or been to the garden of "One Gallon Jim?"

a client of mine whos an ips member told me about " one gallon jim" said he planted everything from 1 gal. and they grew super fast...

[Bags]

Kim,

Everything I planted last winter is doing good. The only reason I have lost anything in the ground was due to too much sun or nutrient deficiencies before I started using slow release ferts. Prior to this year everything I have planted has been at least one gallon size.

Matty,

I'm 0 for 4 with Dypsis sp White in pots. I have two now one in the ground and one in a pot. I am also using a much lighter potting mix and know a lot more about growing in pots, so we will see how it goes this winter. I am trying this mostly with palms that cost less than $10 so no big risk.

Dean,

haven't heard of one gallon Jim, but I am interested in hearing more.

If I had a greenhouse I would be growing most stuff in there until larger.

[Bags]

Gary,

I have heard of a lot of the New Cal stuff struggling in the greenhouse and struggling in pots. I have lost several Cyphosperma balansaes in pots, but have a one gallon on the way that is going straight in the ground. My little three leaf seedling of Basselenia humboltiana is opening its 2nd leaf since planting it straight in the ground in May and looks perfect. We'll see after winter though...

[DoomsDave]

bags, great question!

Tiny little seedlings, in my opinion aren't a good idea, unless it's a volunteer and it happens to pop up where you want it to grow. In cases like that, the resulting plants really grow fast, like wow.

Of course, some plants make huge seedlings, like borassus, or Loidicia (sp?) in which case it often makes sense to plant the seeds where you want them to grow.

However, for the plants on your list, I'd plant them out larger, at least a one-gallon size, unless they're really bodacious 4" plants, say, at least 8" or so tall.

If you have a small, intensely kept garden, and no dogs, no small children, and no tendency to wander around in the night (the Lummoxen of Doom ), then it might work anyway. (Cats don't like to nibble baby palm leaves, since grass is a lot more tender to their liking.) I've found the biggest problem is that little plants get stepped on, followed by getting eaten by snails, earwigs, etc. Baby desert and semi-desert plants like jubes, parajubes and braheas sometimes rot, especially if they don't get enough sun. Since I use overhead irrigation, I haven't had much problem with plants drying out.

Plants that are borderline in your climate should also be larger. If you plant out, say, a Marojejya as a little seedling, it will grow so slowly that it's super vulnerable to everything. Bigger plants (e.g., five-gallon size) seem to do much better.

Something like Dypsis White I'd definitely want to plant out larger. They're glacially slow even in Hawaii, and worse here. Slower than Congress swimming in molasses in January in the northern hemisphere. (I have five, acquired last August, about to be shifted up to gallon pots.) If anything happens to them, they often just don't recover the way a faster plant does.

My general favorite planting size is one to five gallons. They're big enough to be noticed, even by Lummoxen, and small enough to be easy to plant, especially if there's a lot of other stuff nearby.

That said, keep us apprized of your experiment and let us know.

best

dave

[Walter John]

I experimented with planting a seedling P.elegans (solitaire) once with great success. It was reasonably protected but open enough to receive rains. It actually grew to a terrific form/shape.

[Pedro 65]

Gary,

I have heard of a lot of the New Cal stuff struggling in the greenhouse and struggling in pots. I have lost several Cyphosperma balansaes in pots, but have a one gallon on the way that is going straight in the ground. My little three leaf seedling of Basselenia humboltiana is opening its 2nd leaf since planting it straight in the ground in May and looks perfect. We'll see after winter though...

If the ground and weather conditions and lack of critters is on your side, get em in the ground, above post re NC Palms is very true, while these palms dont really seem to be growing vertical for a long time they are certainly developing a very deep root system which they cant do in pots. Bags, trial and error is the way to go, what works for one person wont work for another, BUT if everyone followed suit, we would learn very little. I wish you great success with your trials and see great results. All Best Pete

[BS Man about Palms]

Aaron, knowing where you live and your garden, you are onto something..

My observations after more than a few years at this...

The New Caledonia stuff will be happy in the ground at an early age... they are less bothered by cool, damp conditions (what we have).

Dypsis on the other hand are VERY slow to develop roots (most) unless you have heat. I have had GREAT luck with most Dypsis in pots(on the coast) by using a very light mix and still keeping dry... Its funny, the few I lose seem to be from overwatering (rarely) to "gee, I haven't watered that 1 gal in nearly a month" Oh, dam, I'm about a wekk too late"... But I still have brought back some of those. That 2 headed mealybug type I have, I STOPPED watering for close to 3 months (although in winter) and set in full sun. Once I could see the soil starting to dry out I give a little water.

On the coast you can get away with a lot less water use.

[Bags]

Pedro,

Your New Cal collection is an inspiration to us all. I have some more rare New Cal seedlings that are going into the ground soon with hopes of good results.

B.S. Man,

I started using a 50/50 mix of coconut coir and perlite with much better results over the heavier mixes I was using. My Cycads are thriving in this mix as well. It is all a learning process and we'll see how things go from here..

[Lowey]

Thats good info...Here are some of my thoughts on the comments.

1.The weeds are a non issue at my place and much easier to control than in HI and I am always keeping an eye on the mulch to make sure it does not bury the seedlings.

2.Seedlings can not take the sun so I either plant them in a filtered sun location or put temporary shade cloth over them

3. Water is controlled through drip irrigation to each plant and my soil is rich in organics and drains well. For me the watering is much more

irregular in pots.

4. Just an opinion about the cold, but the ground stays much warmer than the air during winter and a pot would cool down more than the ground as well so wouldn't they take the cold better in the ground than outside in a pot?

5. I agree it seems much better to plant a palm out after it has rooted out its pot. A lot less trauma to the roots and the bigger root system the better.

6. I wonder about the fungal issues. Nature has a way of balancing out with the good and bad stuff keeping each other in check. Pots can create an un natural environment that can be out of balance.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions on the matter. Mostly I am trying to convince myself I am doing the right thing.

I heard at a recent palm society meeting in El Cajon that most of the plants were planted very small with good success. I missed it unfortunately

[Lowey]

Thats good info...Here are some of my thoughts on the comments.

1.The weeds are a non issue at my place and much easier to control than in HI and I am always keeping an eye on the mulch to make sure it does not bury the seedlings.

2.Seedlings can not take the sun so I either plant them in a filtered sun location or put temporary shade cloth over them

3. Water is controlled through drip irrigation to each plant and my soil is rich in organics and drains well. For me the watering is much more

irregular in pots.

4. Just an opinion about the cold, but the ground stays much warmer than the air during winter and a pot would cool down more than the ground as well so wouldn't they take the cold better in the ground than outside in a pot?

5. I agree it seems much better to plant a palm out after it has rooted out its pot. A lot less trauma to the roots and the bigger root system the better.

6. I wonder about the fungal issues. Nature has a way of balancing out with the good and bad stuff keeping each other in check. Pots can create an un natural environment that can be out of balance.

Just some of my thoughts and opinions on the matter. Mostly I am trying to convince myself I am doing the right thing.

I heard at a recent palm society meeting in El Cajon that most of the plants were planted very small with good success. I missed it unfortunately

Bags, I have had a good deal of success planting out very small seedlings under the sorts of conditions that you have layed out here.

Most recently Iriartea deltoidea, Phoenicophorium borsigianum, Verschaffeltia splendida,Bentinckia condapanna, and a few others, all the seedlings are kept weed free, watered and protected from full sun and in all cases are at least twice the size of their siblings that are still in pots.

[nkbish]

it seems for me if you can keep an eye on them it would be ok to plant them if they are in an area they can be protected. the small ones I have planted in protected areas grow about 2 times as fast as they do in pots. It could be that I am a novice at this stuff. only my opinion.

[Palmlover]

Best way to find out is experiment! I just look at my zone and the needs of the plant, then I make an educated guess.