b. Alfredii vs b. Madagascariensis Growth Rates

[Ice Blue]

Hello,

I have a Beccariophoenix Alfredii in the ground that is sitting there letting all of the

other palms in my yard pass him by. I know that beccariophoenix madagascariensis are famous

for being slow growers but I didn't think that b. alfrediis were slow also. I have seen lots of pics of gorgeous b. Alfrediis but they are from places with higher humidity like, Hawaii, Florida, and the higher humidity parts of Australia. Could anyone, who has experience growing b. alfrediis in California or other low humidity climates advise on their growth rates.

Am I missing something, or not doing something right with my b. alfredii or are they just as

slow as b. madagascariensis?

Also if possible what are the main differences between beccariophoenix madagascariensis and beccariophoenix alfrediii?

Thank you!

Joel

[MattyB]

Joel, your B. alfredii should be at least twice as fast as your B. madagascarensis. They both love full sun and don't require any extra ordinary amount of water. I only water mine once a week, with a hose, no matter how hot it is, and they are planted in a very dry, rocky position. Here's how to tell the difference:

B. madagascarensis is upright in habit, like a shuttle cock, and the newer leaves even have the leaflets held in an open V. The terminal leaflets are considerably smaller than the other leaflets on the frond.

B. alfredii has a flat leaf that is very wide and the terminal leaflets are almost the same size as the rest of the leaflets. Also, B. alfredii gets a burgundy coloration on the petiole similar to the color you'd see on Livistona decora.

Also, the B. madagascarensis seems to have a thicker fiber whereas the B. alfredii's trunk is finer and more hair-like. This may be due to the D. madagascarensis being older and larger though.

Hope that helps a bit. Post a pic.

[Tyrone]

Agree with Matty, although I'm not in So Cal, but we're not wildly different in climate. I would put B alfredii at 2.5 to 3 times faster than B madagascariensis (or B no windows as it used to be called) I find B alfredii intolerant of hot humid wet conditions ie 34C and 80-90% RH whereas B madagascariensis doesn't mind this and B sp windows thrive in it. I tried B alfredii in my tunnel house and I lost lots in the early stage. Now once the palms have germinated and have one or two leaves they go from my germination equipment (aquarium) straight outside in a protected spot under my back patio, where the air is drier and less modified. After a bit more growth I put them out where they'll get direct summer sun for a few hours a day, and with this method very rarely lose any if I lose any at all. Then I basically leave them alone and forget them except for when they need weeding every few months and they look after themselves growing fine. I have some B madagascariensis I germinated back in 2005 and they would be 1/3 to 1/2 the size of my first B alfredii's germinated in 2007. However I know that the B madagascariensis are at that stage where they start to speed up. I'll repot them in the spring.

Anyone have any notes on Beccariophoenix "pointy seed" ?

Best regards

Tyrone

[LJG]

Matt explained it well. From what I have noticed here in SoCal, once they get bigger and established in the ground, they look even more silimiar and I would say speed is about twice as fast for Alfredii. The two most distinnguishing charcteristics for me when a little bigger seem to be the longer, more 'wispy' terminal leaflets of Alfredii, and the shorter petiole on Madagascariensis. Maybe this is why Madagascariensis tends to grow more upright.

[Ice Blue]

Matty B., Tyrone, Len,

Very helpful information I appreciate it. Perhaps mine is just getting established. I planted a 1 gallon about 7 months ago. In comparison to everything else I have planted the b. alfredii really hasn't done anything except for sit there and get a little brown. In addition to planting it out in the middle of winter (I just couldn't help myself) I made another rookie mistake and moved it once. So that probably disturbed the roots too which I'm sure didn't help. It is in a full sun location with no protection. I really love the look of the larger alfrediis that I have seen. Since this one is in a prominent location in my garden I'm thinking of simply buying a bigger one and being a bit more gentle and loving this time. I was worried that they might be really slow growers though and wasn't sure if I wanted to go the alfredii route. It sounds like from your posts that I might have luck after all as long as I don't manhandle it this time. Matty B. here's a picture of my sad b. alfredii which will probably be replaced soon. It's about 1.5 feet tall. (.5 meters)

Any other information and or experiences with b. alfredii would be much appreciated.

Joel

[quaman58]

I'm going to disagree just a bit about the water. I think the alfredii are going to be positively affected by regularly accessible water. My personal experience is that they are very slow up to the 5 gallon size. How fast they grow after that seems to depend on watering. The habitat pictures also show them pretty tight to that river/ creek. The B. madagascariensis seems pretty slow no matter what, for me at least. I'd also like to hear from the Florida guys about what they think makes the alfredii go.

Edited June 28, 2011 by quaman58

[MattyB]

I agree bret, water will make afredii grow noticeably faster. Small palms are always slow, even fast species.

[Palmaholic John]

I've had this one for 1 1/2 years....it's put out two new leaves. I purchased this palm as alfredii but I'm now believing it to be madagascariensis because of the leaflets. I'm not certain that I understand what "windows" are; but, if they're what I think they are...I believe this to have 'em. Can anyone explain the term or ID it? This little guy survived outdoors in a pot through a couple of harsh winters and receives full sun during the mid day without burn. I give it a good soaking every other day and it seems to be a healthy plant....just slow. It's going into the ground today....hopefully this will speed it up. I don't know if this helps you...but, I thought I'd chime-in since Florida experiences were requested. Good luck with yours.

[Tyrone]

Agree that alfredii likes water but not equatorial style heat and humidity. That rots them. It's a mountain palm, so it likes that day night temp difference coupled with drier air and maybe even that mountain breeze you get in canyons caused by rapidly changing elevations like where it grows.

John, does your palm have a heel? B madagascariensis would have a definite heel at that stage. If no heel it's B alfredii. It does have windows, but not in the league of B sp windows. In fact all 3 known species have windows at various stages and to varying degrees. Even Cocos nucifera can get them when young.

Best regards

Tyrone

[quaman58]

Hi John,

Yep, that's an alfredii. They hold on to the bifid leaves much longer than the madagascariensis. The over crown shape is also different. I know that's not much help in defining the two. But the brain just picks up on the small differences after you stare at things long enough. I do have a life outside of palms. Really.

[MattyB]

Yeah, that's B. alfredii John. They get that window thing going on too (not to be confused with the B. sp. 'windows'). BTW, that pot was probably root bound a year ago. These things are agressive rooters. Pot it up or pot it out and it'll grow faster.

[LJG]

Agree that alfredii likes water but not equatorial style heat and humidity. That rots them. It's a mountain palm, so it likes that day night temp difference coupled with drier air and maybe even that mountain breeze you get in canyons caused by rapidly changing elevations like where it grows.

John, does your palm have a heel? B madagascariensis would have a definite heel at that stage. If no heel it's B alfredii. It does have windows, but not in the league of B sp windows. In fact all 3 known species have windows at various stages and to varying degrees. Even Cocos nucifera can get them when young.

Best regards

Tyrone

These things grow well in FL I am pretty sure. Hot and humid there. Some of the largest I have seen are growing in FL.

[DoomsDave]

B. alfredii are much faster, as noted, and don't get nutirent deficiences (that I've seen).

They do appreciate plenty of water in sandy soil -- in clay they can get by happily on much less.

Full sun all the way, and more space.

go go go . . . .

[Rafael]

Mine waited 10 long months to start to move, maybe developing root system, but now is on its way. Under some canopy, with almost full sun and diary overwater from grass irrigation!

[Aleitalyyy]

can some of you more experienced tell me which variant my beccariophoenix belongs to? it was bought with fenestralis... thank you

@Tirone 

[Tyrone]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:15 AM, Aleitalyyy said:

can some of you more experienced tell me which variant my beccariophoenix belongs to? it was bought with fenestralis... thank you

@Tirone 

I'm really not too sure which one it is at that stage. They all look alike at that early stage. If there is a seed still in the pot that can help ID it.

Its the same issue with Pritchardia seedlings when trying to ID them. 

[Aleitalyyy]

5 hours ago, Tyrone said:

I'm really not too sure which one it is at that stage. They all look alike at that early stage. If there is a seed still in the pot that can help ID it.

Its the same issue with Pritchardia seedlings when trying to ID them. 

unfortunately no seeds at the base

[Aleitalyyy]

here is the seed was below .. I detached it ...

 

[Aleitalyyy]

@Tirone

[Tyrone]

On 1/12/2023 at 6:18 PM, Aleitalyyy said:

@Tirone

A bit hard to tell, but the alfredii seed Ive had was always a bit like a ball that was squashed a bit at the poles if you know what I mean with the 3 eyes closer to about 1/2 the way to the equator from the flattened pole area. The big eye was the one with an embryo under. That's going from memory. B fenastralis and madagascariensis had identical seeds that were more like a globe with the eyes closer to one pole than the alfredii seed. Then there is B sp pointy seed, which has a pointy seed and eventually looks like B madagascariensis. It could be alfredii but I can't really tell. Sorry. 

[PalmsandLiszt]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:17 AM, Aleitalyyy said:

here is the seed was below .. I detached it ...

 

I took this picture of the B. fenestralis seeds I got from RPS a while ago. Your seed looks close, although one must allow for natural variation. B.  alfredii seeds tend to be more spherical rather than ovoid in my experience, but again, there is natural variation to account for. I'm not familiar with B. madagascariensis seeds.

These seeds were absolutely awful. You can see insect bore holes in one of them! I got 1/10 to germinate. It's a disgrace that RPS considered them fit to sell. The rest are still in moss somewhere, although I think the chances of any others germinating are miniscule. I could dig them out if you'd a like a better photo.

[Aleitalyyy]

8 hours ago, PalmsandLiszt said:

I took this picture of the B. fenestralis seeds I got from RPS a while ago. Your seed looks close, although one must allow for natural variation. B.  alfredii seeds tend to be more spherical rather than ovoid in my experience, but again, there is natural variation to account for. I'm not familiar with B. madagascariensis seeds.

These seeds were absolutely awful. You can see insect bore holes in one of them! I got 1/10 to germinate. It's a disgrace that RPS considered them fit to sell. The rest are still in moss somewhere, although I think the chances of any others germinating are miniscule. I could dig them out if you'd a like a better photo.

hello dear thanks for the info...

but I announce that the Fenestralis palm is almost dead! I advise against comparing B. fenestralis, it is a delicate palm so delicate that it dies in a winter environment at home indoors in the heat ... it needs the tropics ..

I bought a B. Alfredo ....

[PalmsandLiszt]

15 hours ago, Aleitalyyy said:

hello dear thanks for the info...

but I announce that the Fenestralis palm is almost dead! I advise against comparing B. fenestralis, it is a delicate palm so delicate that it dies in a winter environment at home indoors in the heat ... it needs the tropics ..

I bought a B. Alfredo ....

Sorry to hear that. Your photos from only a few days ago looked like a healthy seedling. I know B. fenestralis is considerably more cold-sensitive than alfredii, owing to its lower elevation, but I'm surprised that you can successfully grow a coconut but not the fenestralis.

My sole B. fenestralis seedling died, but certainly not due to temperature as it was kept ~80F and never below 70. Perhaps the medium was wrong. I'll give them another go if I can find fresh seeds. My B. afredii is right up against a cold window and doing fine.

[Aleitalyyy]

I don't know what happened but after a few days the fenestralis started to curl and close the leaves, becoming withered and ugly. its officially dead and i threw it away...my friend dont spend your money and time on fenestralis...i will never buy that palm again. yes, it's more delicate than sisi coconut... my coconut and my bottle palm are fine....

I'll tag you in the other tread where I talk about it...

[PalmsandLiszt]

14 hours ago, Aleitalyyy said:

I don't know what happened but after a few days the fenestralis started to curl and close the leaves, becoming withered and ugly. its officially dead and i threw it away...my friend dont spend your money and time on fenestralis...i will never buy that palm again. yes, it's more delicate than sisi coconut... my coconut and my bottle palm are fine....

I'll tag you in the other tread where I talk about it...

Something similar happened to my Pelagodoxa, which was most depressing as this was absolutely my favourite palm. I'm not convinced it was down to temperature, though, as it was in exactly the same position last winter and was fine. Indeed, it was growing at a rate of knots. I haven't thrown it away as the spear hasn't pulled but nor has it moved, and the leaves are shrivelled. Finding another will be difficult so I still have a vain hope it might come back. But it's probably dead. If I can find another one I'll put it in fine Pal Meir mix or similar. The same if can find a B. fenestralis seedling (I appreciate your advice, but when I want to grow something, even if it seems impossible, I am very stubborn! This is the mindset that might occasionally achieve the impossible; I am inspired by the many people here who manage to grow difficult plants in unlikely places.)

Your new B. afredii looks completely normal and healthy; I'm sure the problems you had with the yellow one were just bad luck in the genetic lottery.

[GottmitAlex]

17 hours ago, Aleitalyyy said:

I don't know what happened but after a few days the fenestralis started to curl and close the leaves, becoming withered and ugly. its officially dead and i threw it away...my friend dont spend your money and time on fenestralis...i will never buy that palm again. yes, it's more delicate than sisi coconut... my coconut and my bottle palm are fine....

I'll tag you in the other tread where I talk about it...

As I mentioned before, B. fenestralis is (in our region, except for a handful of experienced growers) tougher than C. nucifera. 

[PalmsandLiszt]

10 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

As I mentioned before, B. fenestralis is (in our region, except for a handful of experienced growers) tougher than C. nucifera. 

I shouldn't have expected B. fenestralis to perish where a coconut is fine. I suspect there might be other factors, like medium/water/humidity for growing this indoors, and slightly lower temperatures might not be the demon.

[Aleitalyyy]

19 minutes ago, GottmitAlex said:

As I mentioned before, B. fenestralis is (in our region, except for a handful of experienced growers) tougher than C. nucifera. 

never seen such a delicate palm ... perhaps it caught cold during the 4 days of travel ... (it came from Czechoslovakia) I treated it as I treat the others ... from one day to the next it withered .. a palm really to be avoided ... sorry!

[Aleitalyyy]

he may have caught cold during the journey by courier (Czechoslovakia-northern Italy Liguria trip) but I checked the temperatures and in those days the minimum in Czechoslovakia was 4° celsius? while in northern Italy it was a minimum of 9° and a maximum of 16! so I can't say what happened... it could have been too much moisture at the roots yes in the cool weather she wasn't used to that!

[PalmsandLiszt]

That might have been the case. 4C is pretty cold and I doubt anything in lowland Madagascar experiences it. Seedlings are certainly more sensitive than mature plants, maybe because the meristem is just so much more well-insulated in the latter. There's a photo on here somewhere of a Sommieria in Florida that survived palmagedon; my seedlings (much later), on the other hand, gave up the ghost when it touched about 10C. Keep the babies warm!

[GottmitAlex]

48 minutes ago, PalmsandLiszt said:

I shouldn't have expected B. fenestralis to perish where a coconut is fine. I suspect there might be other factors, like medium/water/humidity for growing this indoors, and slightly lower temperatures might not be the demon.

B.fenestralis requires humidity (proximity to the ocean/beach). It does not like dry weather. And of course, it does not like 4C temperatures.

 

[mnorell]

I grow B. fenestralis in the Palm Springs area without any serious issue. (And I have killed four or five Cocos in the same period!) I currently have two young specimens in the ground for a couple of years now, and they take our chill in stride except when very young (one stunted leaf emerged from one of my two specimens last spring, after a winter that featured a frostless 31F morning). They don't need humidity but they seem to like some shade when young and be allowed to grow up into higher light. They will also grow in lots of shade over winter...I kept mine in cans under a winter-cold northeast-facing porch overhang for a year and they looked great. We do have very fast-draining soil here, on a coarsely sandy, mostly granitic alluvial fan running down out of the Santa Rosa Mountains, with some humus and other amendments added during planting. I have a couple of B. alfredii planted in the same bed, and I find them to be marginally more difficult to establish when young, a bit finicky about placement, maybe a little shocky out of the can into the ground. My best B. alfredii though is finally looking very good, and is (like the B. fenestralis) at the back of a bed, sheltered amidst some other vegetation to grow up into the light. One of the B. alfredii is in more direct summer sun and looking very scrappy, I think I need to move it. I just marked spears a couple of weeks ago and my B. alfredii and B. fenestralis both push spears a bit in winter--we're having a long, chilly one this year--at virtually the same, slow rate.

So my guess is that B. fenestralis wants a lot of heat during the growing season (perhaps more than at the California coast, where people seem to have problems with them) and maybe the well-draining soil here makes a difference. They may detest clay. And hence why they may thrive in Florida's open soils. There used to be a B. fenestralis at the Huntington Gardens in San Marino, California, planted back maybe around 1990, and it did well for some years, planted on a hillside under the periphery of their jungle-garden tree-cover, but judging from some pictures I saw posted--I think on this forum--it looks like something sent it into a bad decline. The Huntington has had a bad reputation in my mind in maintaining some of its hillside palms due to planting too high (basal root exposure in a dry climate) and not maintaining water-catchment basins around the root-zones. Back around the mid-/late '90s they killed a couple of Dictyosperma that way, and had a number of other palms suffering similarly that I remember. But they may be better at husbandry these days...I haven't been over there to notice in a good while.

I think it's important to keep trying with some of these troublesome species that are newer to cultivation, with their needs still being worked out, despite apparent constant failure. In addition to keeping stubbornly working at the Cocos out here (and hardly expecting miracles despite some successes growing out in this region), I also am frustrated that I keep killing Syagrus ruschiana in summer (doesn't make sense, it comes from really hot, sun-baked granite rocks near Rio de Janeiro)...but keep trying; and I summer-killed a couple of Ravenea glauca, assumed it couldn't handle the hot summers, but ordered one more from Jeff Marcus anyway, and it is thriving now for over a year! Persistence and experimentation can guide us to success. There was a time when we thought bottle palms were a silly pipe-dream in California, and now there are a number of beautiful specimens growing in San Diego County, in the right conditions.

[PalmsandLiszt]

17 hours ago, mnorell said:

I grow B. fenestralis in the Palm Springs area without any serious issue. (And I have killed four or five Cocos in the same period!) I currently have two young specimens in the ground for a couple of years now, and they take our chill in stride except when very young (one stunted leaf emerged from one of my two specimens last spring, after a winter that featured a frostless 31F morning). They don't need humidity but they seem to like some shade when young and be allowed to grow up into higher light. They will also grow in lots of shade over winter...I kept mine in cans under a winter-cold northeast-facing porch overhang for a year and they looked great. We do have very fast-draining soil here, on a coarsely sandy, mostly granitic alluvial fan running down out of the Santa Rosa Mountains, with some humus and other amendments added during planting. I have a couple of B. alfredii planted in the same bed, and I find them to be marginally more difficult to establish when young, a bit finicky about placement, maybe a little shocky out of the can into the ground. My best B. alfredii though is finally looking very good, and is (like the B. fenestralis) at the back of a bed, sheltered amidst some other vegetation to grow up into the light. One of the B. alfredii is in more direct summer sun and looking very scrappy, I think I need to move it. I just marked spears a couple of weeks ago and my B. alfredii and B. fenestralis both push spears a bit in winter--we're having a long, chilly one this year--at virtually the same, slow rate.

So my guess is that B. fenestralis wants a lot of heat during the growing season (perhaps more than at the California coast, where people seem to have problems with them) and maybe the well-draining soil here makes a difference. They may detest clay. And hence why they may thrive in Florida's open soils. There used to be a B. fenestralis at the Huntington Gardens in San Marino, California, planted back maybe around 1990, and it did well for some years, planted on a hillside under the periphery of their jungle-garden tree-cover, but judging from some pictures I saw posted--I think on this forum--it looks like something sent it into a bad decline. The Huntington has had a bad reputation in my mind in maintaining some of its hillside palms due to planting too high (basal root exposure in a dry climate) and not maintaining water-catchment basins around the root-zones. Back around the mid-/late '90s they killed a couple of Dictyosperma that way, and had a number of other palms suffering similarly that I remember. But they may be better at husbandry these days...I haven't been over there to notice in a good while.

I think it's important to keep trying with some of these troublesome species that are newer to cultivation, with their needs still being worked out, despite apparent constant failure. In addition to keeping stubbornly working at the Cocos out here (and hardly expecting miracles despite some successes growing out in this region), I also am frustrated that I keep killing Syagrus ruschiana in summer (doesn't make sense, it comes from really hot, sun-baked granite rocks near Rio de Janeiro)...but keep trying; and I summer-killed a couple of Ravenea glauca, assumed it couldn't handle the hot summers, but ordered one more from Jeff Marcus anyway, and it is thriving now for over a year! Persistence and experimentation can guide us to success. There was a time when we thought bottle palms were a silly pipe-dream in California, and now there are a number of beautiful specimens growing in San Diego County, in the right conditions.

Very interesting observations. You have convinced me that B. fenestrallis is not necessarily super-delicate, but only if other subtle things are right. To wit, very well-draining medium and minimal water during colder periods, if I understand you right. Along with high summer heat and lots of water for growth. This sounds very much like blue Australian Cycas and Macrozamias. All good to know; thanks for the information.