Palms that can take full sun + wet feet

[Ice Blue]

Hello,

I live just south of San Diego about 5-6 miles inland (border of zone 24) I have an area that I'm ready to plant out with palms. It is a lawn area so it gets plenty of water and basically all day full south facing sun. I'm looking for suggestions of plumose or pinnate palms that can take the full sun (without burning) AND lots of water (without rot problems due to lots of water.) I have found lots of palms that can take full sun but that will rot with wet feet. Conversely I have also found lots of palms that like lots of water but will fry with full sun. If anyone has had success with palms that can take both I'd love to hear.

So far this is the list that I have:

-Queen Palms - of course

-Roystonea regia and borinquena

-Ravenea Glauca

-Several phoenix (Interestingly although CIDPs can do fine without much water they also seem to be able to take lots of water. I have seen plenty planted on front lawns that get lots of water and are nice and healthy without rot problems.)

-Butia Capitata (although it doesn't require high water I have seen plenty planted in high water areas that are very healthy)

-Dypsis leptocheilos

-I currently have a parajubaea torallyi planted in this area but am going to remove it because even though they can take the full sun I have learned that they will develop rot problems with too much water and not sufficient time to dry out.

Any and all suggestions are much appreciated. And no I can't tear out the grass, that would be picking a disastrous battle with my beautiful wife that I would be sure to lose.

Joel

[Takil-Explorer]

Well in Chili I have seen Jubaea growing both on humid and dry spots. The biggest ones where close to streams. Should be perfect for your garden and climate! And lots of Sabals like it humid/wet also

Alexander

[Kailua_Krish]

My Jubaea x Syagrus has done well in more moist soil. My Jubutyagrus also has done well. I cant say about long term because each has only been in for a bit over a year.

Sounds like a majesty palm would do really well here though.

-Krishna

[Lowey]

I dont think your climate would allow but Mauritia flexuosa love wet feet and full sun

[sarasota alex]

Chambeyronia macrocarpa

Sabal palmetto

[mangolorry]

Livistona australis

Ravanea rivularis

[Tom in Tucson]

From my own experience, if you are restricted to pinnate palms, heres what succeeds for me:

Ravenea rivularis

Beccariophoenix madagascarensis

Roystonea princeps

Phoenix roebelenii

Dypsis baronii

Dypsis leptocheilos - burns some in full sun here

If you include fan palms:

Sabal causiarum

Sabal minor

Sabal uresana

Sabal 'Riverside'

Acoelorraphe wrightii

With some shade when young:

Livistona chinensis

Livistona benthamii

Livistona saribus

Hi 78F, Low 57F

[Pedro 65]

All the Raphias Love WET feet and FULL sun, heres a few pics.

[Kathryn]

Does Sabal uresana like a lot of water? I thought the opposite was true.

[Tyrone]

Archontophoenix

[Ice Blue]

Thanks everyone for all the help.

-Alexander, I was also considering a Jubaea, thanks. I know they're drought resistant but I think they also take a lot of water too.

-Krishna - thanks for the hybrid tips. I hadn't really thought of either.

-Lowey you're right a Mauritia wouldn't really work here in Socal for me but thanks!

-Alex thanks. However a chambeyronia will fry here for me in full south facing sun. That's cool that it won't in Florida.

-Dypsis you have some great ideas. I had been thinking a B. Mad. I think it might be a good fit. The only problem is that I believe they're real slow growers so I might have to get a larger specimen. I had a B. Species Windows but that thing went from green to yellow in about 6 days it was crazy. I would love B. Alfredii also but am not sure if it takes wet feet. A d. baronii might be a good idea too. I didn't know that d. baroniis took a lot of water? If they do, that might work.

-Thanks Pete. I would love a Raphia and yours look awesome. However I have heard repeatedly that Raphias don't work well here in Socal.

-Thanks Tyrone. Archontophoenix works also.

This is what I'm thinking right now.

Roystonea Regia - definitely

B. Mad or B. alfredii - maybe if either can take wet feet

Jubaea - if it can take wet feet

D. baronii - need to research if it can take heavy water.

If anyone has any other ideas please keep them coming. Your input is very helpful

[Sutter Bob]

Dypsis baronii seems to tolerate being constantly soaked here during our hot summer months. I keep them a little drier in the winter.

[Hilo Jason]

Joel,

There is a nice Raphia Farinifera at the Catamaran hotel in San Diego. Search Catamaran here on the board and you can find pictures. I've also seen them in private gardens around san diego. I just recently planted one here in Fallbrook from a large 15 gallon that I bought at JD Andersen. I've got it in full sun, but under 30% shadecloth to help it acclimate. I'm keeping it nice and moist and it's already pushed the new spear quite a bit. We'll see how it does once some santa ana's come along, but I am hopeful. You are closer to the coast then I am, so it might be a good option for you, based on how the Catamaran's is doing. Definitely a great looking palm!

Jason

[Hilo Jason]

Also, I've seen Chambeyronia in full sun out at JD Andersen and it looks great. Takes awhile to acclimate since they don't grow real fast for us here, but they can do it. I have a couple here in full sun that are about 6-7' tall and have been in the ground for almost 2 years. They seem to be happy.

[Al in Kona]

Joel, why not add a nice fan palm in for contrast against all those pinnate palms. Acoelorraphe wrightii (Everglades palm) is a very nice clumping fan palm with relatively thin trunks. It gives a nice tropical look to a garden and does not require a lot of care. It thrives under wet conditions and is hardy to cold from what I've read.

[DoomsDave]

Archontophoenix tuckeri

Not so sure about Jubes taking wet feet. They want some water, but I guess a lot depends on how swampy you really are.

Ravenea rivularis, for sure. We feet full sun, GLORIOUS if well grown.

Common, but not that common to find nice.

Rhopy sapidas.

[Ice Blue]

Jason, thanks a lot for the heads up. I'll have to look into Raphias a little more, they really are a nice looking palm. Does yours have sharp petioles? I had always heard that Santa Anas were killers on Raphias over here, but I'll have to check out the Raphia at the Catamaran. Chambeyronias in full sun? Really? I would love to have one out there in front as I planted a couple in my backyard under shade. I'll definitely have to look into that too.

Al- That's a good point about the contrast thank you. I'm just not a fan palm lover I guess. I do like braheas, and have an armata in back under full sun with low water. I like Pritchardias too, but I don't know if a Pritchardia Hillebrandii would work in full sun with lots of water.

Dave, thanks for the info on the tuckeri and the r. rivularis. I'm not a huge fan of the r. rivularis but do like r. glaucas especially since they don't yellow under full sun as much. Would a r. glauca take wet feet as much as a rivularis?

Also does anyone else have experience with a B. Mad in California or another Mediterranean climate? Is the B. Mad the same thing as B. species no windows or are they different?

Thanks,

Joel

[Hilo Jason]

Raphia Farinifera has little teeth on the leaflets, but it's nothing that really cuts. They might catch a bit on your clothing, but they're not nearly as dangerous as other armed palms or cycads. I definitely recommend you check out the Catamaran. That might be the selling point for you to see it in person. The only thing to keep in mind is I believe they are Monocarpic, so eventually it will flower and die, but I imagine it will take awhile here.

As for the Chambeyronia's in full sun, the one out at JD Andersen is probably 12+ feet tall, and it looks great. It's the watermelon variety, planted right next to a good sized Dypsis Decipiens. They are both growing really nice and look great next to each other. Since I'm fairly close to JD Andersen, I really learn what I can do in sun by seeing what they've done over the years. And since you're closer to the coast, you should even have better luck than me.

Also, I noticed you mentioned Pritchardia. I have a Pritchardia Hillebrandia in all day, south facing sun and it seems very happy. I bought it as a 5 gallon from Multiflora here in Fallbrook. He grows them in pots in the full sun, so they are already acclimated, which is nice. It's now almost 6 feet tall. Not sure about how much water they want as mine is on a dripper, but being that they are from Hawaii, I would think it's safe to water them like crazy during the warm months. And in the winter we don't really need to worry about watering all that much with the rain we get. Especially like we had this last winter. I rarely ever had to turn my sprinklers on my lawn or my palms.

[MattyB]

I think you might be getting "wet feet" confused with poor drainage. Archontophoenix loves it's feet wet and will grow at streams edge or in a pond, with roots under water, but it will rot in a wet spot that is comprised of clay. I assume that your lawn isn't next to a pond or stream and that the roots aren't actually going to be submerged in water but rather, your soil is heavy, clay and because it's in a lawn, continues to stay wet due to frequent watering. That said, I think you need to ammend your list requirement to palms that can handle poor drainage. In my opinion, R. glauca and Archontophoenix aren't good candidates.

For full sun, wet spot, poor drainage these are the pinnate candidates that I can think of:

Full sun, not a problem from the get go:

Roystonea

Butia

Phoenix

Queen palm

Arenga engleri

Full sun ok but will take time to acclimate:

Howea

Chambeyronia

Ravenea rivularis

Dypsis leptocheilos

Kentiopsis oliviformis

Here's a kooky idea: try Arenga pinnata

[sonoranfans]

Al- That's a good point about the contrast thank you. I'm just not a fan palm lover I guess. Thanks,

Joel

Fans are heavily yang, feathers are heavily yin (with respect to gravity). There are yin fans and a few yang feathers but.... sounds like a yin yard.... But to each his own...

[Walter John]

Gotta have Archontophoenix alexandrae.

[Ice Blue]

I think you might be getting "wet feet" confused with poor drainage. Archontophoenix loves it's feet wet and will grow at streams edge or in a pond, with roots under water, but it will rot in a wet spot that is comprised of clay. I assume that your lawn isn't next to a pond or stream and that the roots aren't actually going to be submerged in water but rather, your soil is heavy, clay and because it's in a lawn, continues to stay wet due to frequent watering. That said, I think you need to ammend your list requirement to palms that can handle poor drainage. In my opinion, R. glauca and Archontophoenix aren't good candidates.

For full sun, wet spot, poor drainage these are the pinnate candidates that I can think of:

Full sun, not a problem from the get go:

Roystonea

Butia

Phoenix

Queen palm

Arenga engleri

Full sun ok but will take time to acclimate:

Howea

Chambeyronia

Ravenea rivularis

Dypsis leptocheilos

Kentiopsis oliviformis

Here's a kooky idea: try Arenga pinnata

Thanks Matt and Jason,

Matt I think you hit the nail right on the head with the comment about drainage. Perhaps I really should have given more details. I have a gently sloping front yard. Due to the gentle slope I really have to water the heck out of the grass or else it develops brown spots. Because of this I check the soil of my palms that are planted there and have noticed that they due not have time to dry out between waterings. I know that with most palms if you keep on watering without allowing time to dry out, you are just asking for your palms to rot. So I'm looking for palms that can take being moist for long periods of time without rotting. To make things worse this particular area is full sun, so I'm looking for palms that can handle both conditions. As Matt mentioned, a lot of palms can handle heavy water, but only a few palms can handle staying wet and not being allowed time to dry out, obviously r. rivularis and roystonea regia being prime examples.

Matty B., out of the palms you mentioned that might take time to acclimate:

Howea

Chambeyronia

Ravenea rivularis

Dypsis leptocheilos

Kentiopsis oliviformis

which of these in your opinion would look "the least fried, or the least yellow". I don't want to plant something in my front yard that is going to look fried or yellowish due to full sun. It already is probably "too yin"

Thanks again!

Joel

[MattyB]

I'm gonna say Ravenea rivularis first, followed by Howea, then Dypsis leptocheilos, then Chambeyronia and Kentiopsis.

[Jeff Searle]

I'm gonna say Ravenea rivularis first, followed by Howea, then Dypsis leptocheilos, then Chambeyronia and Kentiopsis.

And the MAN has spoken.

Is Bill Sanford under the weather, or just recently kidnapped?

[DoomsDave]

Hmm.

Perhaps a little literary flight of fun to frame the issue?

There's one kind of wet feet, happy wet feet, of flowing water, fresh and clean, pleasant smelling, full of oxygen and suitable for fishies and walking barefoot in.

Then there's unhappy wet feet, stagnant water, cloudy, and full of the sulfurous stink of anaerobically rotting plant and animal remains.

The first kind, not much of a problem, as Matty points out. The second, much worse.

My experience has been that it's very unusual to find that second condition in a yard here, without a natural, year-round water source. It's just too dry and too many plants just drink up the water.

You can do Dave's Nasty Clay Soil Test:

Give one point for each of the next items, the higher the score the worse the soil: (1) Soil hardens like stone when it dries out; (2) you can mold it to a smooth shape in your hand; (3) you fling a soft lump of it against a wall or other hard surface and it smacks it in one piece, doesn't shatter; (4) you cut a lump wiht a blade and encounter little if any grit grinding against the blade; (5) you try to break up a lump and it stretches instead; (6) a hole dug in it holds water for more than 10 hours without draining; or, (7) more than 30 hours without draining; or, (8) never drains.

DON'T JUST DUMP SAND IN CLAY! YOU'LL END UP WITH CONCRETE.

If you have to amend it, go ape-caca with the organix.

Most yards don't have a nasty clay problem, unless they're brand-new houses, close together where the original soil was taken off in the grading before building. There are, of course, exceptions, and I had one of them . . .

[Ice Blue]

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the test. I'm done and my soil passed with 0 points. When I threw the soil against the wall it reminded me of my old college days at UCSB when me and my roommates would fling spaghetti against the wall to see if it was done but I digress. So I guess my soil drains OK. However I still would think that I need to select carefully and plant something in my front lawn area that doesn't mind being wet most of the time right? Whenever I reach down into the planted palms in the front lawn the soil is usually moist, not drenched but moist. This is compared to my palms in the back which I soak thoroughly but on a less frequent basis so that they have time to dry out between waterings.

Matt,

Thanks a lot for the info, I appreciate it. I just reviewed your post and saw about arenga pinnata too, thanks. Since you live pretty close to me what's your opinion on any Beccariophoenix for this area? Do you think any would work? (I still am not straight on B. Madagascarensis B. windows etc.) I would love to plant a coconut look alike in front but know that Parajubaeas probably wouldn't be a good choice.

Jeff,

Since I'm still pretty much a newbie I would love to hear from BS Man too! And Pohonkelapa for that matter. The more the merrier!

[MattyB]

You may have better soil than you think. Constantly moist is great, in fact it's usually ideal. Some palms don't want to dry out between waterings and even the ones that can tolerate drying out usually don't require that they go dry and look better if given constant moisture. Moisture, not boggy. I suspect that you can expand your list.

I've been meaning to do a Beccariophoenix post showing all three growing side by side, but here's the rundown in my experience:

B. alfredii is the fastest grower, takes full sun from a very small seedling, and has the flattest, widest leaves and looks most like a coconut palm.

B. madagascarensis is the 'no windows' one. It's leaves are held more in a V shape and it's habit is more upright. It takes full sun from a young age but is very slow growing.

B. 'windows', hates the full sun at least while young and often has chronic nutrition deficiencies leaving it yellow. I have hopes to get mine acclimated to sun and growing strongly but for 2 years now it's been struggling. Bret has an amazing one at least 15 feet tall nestled between 2 houses so maybe it's a sweet spot.

I'd give B. alfredii a try. It's by far the easiest grow.

[Ice Blue]

Thanks Matt, Dave, Jason and others. You have given me some really good ideas. Had I tried to research this on the internet it would have taken forever and I still would have received an incomplete answer. That's what I love about this website. You can get advice from people who already have experience growing what you might be unsure about.

Thanks again,

Joel

[Jastin]

Thanks Matt, Dave, Jason and others. You have given me some really good ideas. Had I tried to research this on the internet it would have taken forever and I still would have received an incomplete answer. That's what I love about this website. You can get advice from people who already have experience growing what you might be unsure about.

Thanks again,

Joel

What type of spriklers do you have? Do you have alot of run off? If you do, how many min. does it take to see the run off from the time you run a station? I know that when I changed my system to Hunter MP Rotators, Rainbird, and drip my water bill went WAY down from at least $100 a month to $30 a month and everything looks a lot better. These Sprinkler heads put out less water so you have to water longer per station but it helps to soak in deeper.

[Ice Blue]

Hi Jastin,

In the area that I was asking about it has a gentle slope so, I get run-off after about five minutes. It's really annoying. I'm going to check into the sprinklers you mentioned, it sounds like a great idea. Are these just regular 2 inch or 4 inch sprinkler heads that I can change myself or is it a whole system?

Joel