Lets talk Fungicides

[palmislandRandy]

I have a few areas in my garden that have had some root issues. I want to use a prophylactic systemic fungus treatment for Pythium on a few of the areas. Both Heritage & Subdue both are listed to pre-treat Pythium, but are there differences? I have already have Heritage, do I need to rotate with Subdue or something else? Does Subdue Maxx & Heritage inhibit Pythium growth in the same manner. I also have Cleary's if needed.

Thanks, Randy

[Palmə häl′ik]

Here's a Florida based company:

http://www.organiclabs.com/organic_labs_home_lawn_garden_product.htm

I have no experience with the Exel myself, but do use the NeemOil from them...

I use a product called Serenade for my fungus problems...

Mainly my strawberries in the winter... The Serenade will stop the black spotting on berries...

I'm pretty sure these are organically derived...

I've also heard the blue bottle of Bayers systemic works aswell...

Prolly better for palms and Frangis to stop rust anyway...

I use organic fungicides because of edible crops.

Go MyCo! Fight fire with fire!

~Ray.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Palmə häl′ik

[kahili]

Clearys won't do anything to prevent or treat pythium. You should be alternating between at least two different fungicides to prevent resistance to the pythium, or the Heritage could become ineffective after too many applications. Subdue is different, it is not absorbed through the leaves-only through the roots and works its way up the plant, so you have to do a drench. It lasts 30 days and should not be reapplied before then. It takes about a wk for the plant to take it up and start working. Truban would also work and that has to be applied to the soil as a drench as well. It is cheaper than Subdue and you can buy it in smaller amts. Truban also lasts about a month.

Where you are having the problem-is it possible to either keep it very dry to discourage the pythium or else dig up all the dirt in that area and dispose of it? Otherwise you are faced with constantly using an expensive chemical. Or you could plant something that is not susceptible to pythium.

[palmislandRandy]

Clearys won't do anything to prevent or treat pythium. You should be alternating between at least two different fungicides to prevent resistance to the pythium, or the Heritage could become ineffective after too many applications. Subdue is different, it is not absorbed through the leaves-only through the roots and works its way up the plant, so you have to do a drench. It lasts 30 days and should not be reapplied before then. It takes about a wk for the plant to take it up and start working. Truban would also work and that has to be applied to the soil as a drench as well. It is cheaper than Subdue and you can buy it in smaller amts. Truban also lasts about a month.

Where you are having the problem-is it possible to either keep it very dry to discourage the pythium or else dig up all the dirt in that area and dispose of it? Otherwise you are faced with constantly using an expensive chemical. Or you could plant something that is not susceptible to pythium.

So you suggest alternating between Heritage & Truban as a preventative once a month? The soil would be tough to remove due to lg roots & I have some crotons doing fine there now. I'll redirect the sprinkler so it stays dryer.

Thanks, Randy

[kahili]

Yes, you would alternate between the two, but the label for Heritage says every 14 days (or less if I remember correctly). What plant(s) is not doing well in that area, and have you confirmed with a lab that it is pythiun? If its not too big an area, I would just spray roundup if its grass and st the edge of a bed and just leave the crotons and mulch-or find plants that are not susceptible. If you are going to treat it all year, then you should also use Subdue as well as the Truban and the Heritage to avoid resistence. After a few years the pythium might just leave, esp if kept really dry. None of these fungicides will make the pythium go away, they only help to protect the plants (sometimes) from being affected from the pythium. Keeping it dry is a better way to go.

[palmislandRandy]

Yes, you would alternate between the two, but the label for Heritage says every 14 days (or less if I remember correctly). What plant(s) is not doing well in that area, and have you confirmed with a lab that it is pythiun? If its not too big an area, I would just spray roundup if its grass and st the edge of a bed and just leave the crotons and mulch-or find plants that are not susceptible. If you are going to treat it all year, then you should also use Subdue as well as the Truban and the Heritage to avoid resistence. After a few years the pythium might just leave, esp if kept really dry. None of these fungicides will make the pythium go away, they only help to protect the plants (sometimes) from being affected from the pythium. Keeping it dry is a better way to go.

I'll cap the sprinkler & keep the area dry. The problem is in the same bed against my house that I have other healthy established palms. I've lost every palm I tried to add due to a root fungus. I've lost 3 Basselinias, a triple A. purperia, a P. cuneatum & some small Dypsis What kills me is the other established palms seem immune to the fungus & are some of my best growers. I want to protect the ones that are doing well.

Thanks, Randy

[Palmə häl′ik]

If you've been using those two products already, and their not working...

Sounds like your spinnin' your wheels.

Try something else.

There ARE products that will make it go away immediately.

They're not gonna be found at your big boxes though.

You'll have to go to a speciality gardening shop.

They've got the REAL DEAL chems.

Those guys that grow hydroponically have all sorts of fungal problems...

There are additives specifically designed for this.

You'd initially do a soil drench, then systemically spray for continued protection.

[kahili]

Ray-I would love to hear what product would make pythium go away immediately. Since pythium is capable of taking down a large percentage of a crop in a wk or two, I think other growers would love to hear about this product as well. Also,out of curiosity,what makes a chemical a "real deal" chemical??

[Palmə häl′ik]

What I mean by 'RealDeal', are the ones you can't buy at the BigBoxes.

A much wider selection of chems and additives can be found in the gardening shops...

I've been in there and seen rows of fungicides, both organic for edibles, and chem for ornamentals..

http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=5Z508lggkPU%3D&tabid=2384&mid=4387

[kahili]

ok that is what I thought you were going to say. I am going to guess that you are not that familiar with the fungicides as both Subdue and Truban would be considered "real deals". You won't find either one in many speciality garden stores as they are too expensive and they are normally sold out of grower supplies companies. I get my chemicals from BWI and John Deere, which are cheaper than online stores that sell them if you buy in volume. A quart of Subdue will cost about $ 230-$300 (qt is the smallest amt that it is sold at) if that gives you an idea of the cost. You only use 2T/100 gallons so it would last the homeowner a long time. A qt of Truban is less, but you use more of it per 100 gallons so it is probably closer to the cost of Subdue. At these prices, I would highly suggest that anyone using them make sure that they actually have pythium or phythopthora (as in a test at a plant clinic at a university etc) before they buy this stuff. Subdue can have toxic issues to the plant if not used correctly, as well as resistance build up.

I think that Palmisland had not tried anything but Heritage, and again, I am not even sure if pythium is the culprit.

I would still love to know what chemical will get rid of pythium immediately. None of the expensive chemicals make that promise. They only say that it will control and suppress the spread of the fungus. Its a water mold, and once a particular strain gets in your soil, it is impossible to get rid of it with chemicals-you can only try to protect the healthy plants that are nearby. You can, however remove the soil or sterilize the soil. Or it can just go away on its own-they don't understand why that happens, but it does sometimes. I applaud you for looking at biofungicides as certain strains of both pythium and phytopthora have built up resistence to Truban and Subdue due to overuse. But they are still some of the most effective fungicides for these water molds.

[LJG]

Stupid question but about how much is '2T/100 gallons' equal a 1 gallon mix? Like 1 drop from a dropper?

[Palmə häl′ik]

I've got a commercial strawberry grower friend in Plant City, FL. (strawberry capital of da EastCoast)

He's been test runnin' hydroponic strawberries in stackable sytems...

Mainly because the chemicals that were around back in the day, are not anymore...

That, and space conservation... He grows more vertically in the stackables, than his family has been growing horizontally in the ground on raised beds for many, many years...

He's a real good friend of mine, we go way back to Brandon High School and I visit him quite often...

There was a time a couple winters ago where I was helpin' him out on a daily basis...

I observed the Pythium in the reservoirs dissappear after initial application...

Persistant treatments, and we'd get it under control...

Now he just adds a additive with each res. change and the problem is nil.

~Ray.

Things could take a little longer in the soil. I dunno.

But if it was visible like I've seen it... That stuff will kill it.

[kahili]

Len, I don't know as I don't make mixes that small. You would have to do the math, and start by converting the T to teaspoons-so 6 teaspoons/100 gallons, 1.50 teaspoon/25 gallons, .30 teaspoons/5 gallons etc...so yeah thats about right, but then you have to figure out if you are doing preventative treatments where you would use less, or full strength. I just realized above when I said 2T/100 gallons, that it is really 2 oz/100 gallons for full strength, so thats 4T/100 gallons of water.

So Ray-what is "that stuff"? I still am interested to find out. I use clean water and don't recycle it so I have never had to treat water-only soil, and it maybe that this "stuff" that you are referring to is only for use in water supplies?

[LJG]

Len, I don't know as I don't make mixes that small. You would have to do the math, and start by converting the T to teaspoons-so 6 teaspoons/100 gallons, 1.50 teaspoon/25 gallons, .30 teaspoons/5 gallons etc...so yeah thats about right, but then you have to figure out if you are doing preventative treatments where you would use less, or full strength. I just realized above when I said 2T/100 gallons, that it is really 2 oz/100 gallons for full strength, so thats 4T/100 gallons of water.

So Ray-what is "that stuff"? I still am interested to find out. I use clean water and don't recycle it so I have never had to treat water-only soil, and it maybe that this "stuff" that you are referring to is only for use in water supplies?

OK, this is better. I was getting worried because I did the math a few years ago when I bought Subdue and came up with 2 drops per gallon. Then I saw the 2T and got worried I was overdosing!

[Palmə häl′ik]

So Ray-what is "that stuff"? I still am interested to find out. I use clean water and don't recycle it so I have never had to treat water-only soil, and it maybe that this "stuff" that you are referring to is only for use in water supplies?

refer to post #9

~Ray.

[kahili]

Ok-didn't click on link before. So its Segway, and I read about it. Couple of thoughts: first, its a contact fungicide, not a systemic like Subdue and Truban, which means the coverage does not last as long and you have to spray more, and because its a contact fungicide-it can't be used as a preventative (i.e the spores would have to occur during the time it is present for it to work so thats not very effective to use as a preventative). It does not make any claim to eliminate the spores as you said above. In fact, they are so worried about the pathogens building up resistance that they repeat over and over again on their label to use other fungicides between applications of Segway.

The cost is the big one. On their website, they quote $ 380/qt and it takes 6 oz/100 gal (full strength) so that's 6.5 applications costing $ 58.47 an application and the coverage only lasts 7 days (and the pythium has to be active). The label says every 14-28 days-but that is because they don't want you using it so much.

Subdue is $ 232/qt and it takes 4 oz/100 gal and I get 9.75 applications costing $ 23.80 an application and its a systemic that I can use as a preventative and the coverage lasts at least 28 days.

Here is the real kicker-on their website they give a chart at the bottom listing the various fungicides and the percent of average control of the pathogens each fungicide provides and Segway is listed at 81.9% and Subdue is at 79.7%. So given all the info about systemics vs contacts and the time of coverage and cost-you can see why Subdue is the first choice for growers. That is not to say that I wouldn't use Segway in my rotation of fungicides if I had an pythium problem, but its not my first choice, or my second choice, but I would certainly consider it. So I do appreciate you letting us know about it. I always like knowing about options as pythium/phytophthora are asskickers to get control of.

[Palmə häl′ik]

...some relavent information can be found here:

http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=d5WVuTp4Ohc%3d&tabid=3591&mid=7713