Sealing Wax vs. Coconut

[Dypsisdean]

I've always been under the impression that Coconut is more cold hardy than Sealing Wax. If this is so, in Florida how much further north does Coconut grow than Sealing Wax?

[SubTropicRay]

Dean,

Coconuts will grow in central Florida for decades before the big 50 year freeze gets them.  A Cyrtostachys would not make it through one winter in the same area.  I would say that the Floridian Cyrtostachys limit would be extreme south Florida.  It is being grown further north than Miami but with yearly protection.  The same freeze that would wipe out the Coconuts up here would kill the Cyrtostachys down there.  Only the Florida Keys are totaly reliable in the long term for C. renda.

Ray

[ruskinPalms]

Funny you ask as I just posted on this in another thread. Personally, I have never seen  a sealing wax in this area of florida (ruskin, tampa) but I have seen plenty of coconuts in the 5 to 10 age and older. For that matter  I don't think I have seen a sealing wax palm in person so maybe I don't know what I am looking for. There is a nursery that sells sealing wax palms (according to web site) and plumeria in Brandon FL though I think they must provide some sort of protection and artificial heat to protect these plants in inland Brandon.

[Dypsisdean]

Bill,

It was your post indicating you had never seen a Sealing Wax that prompted my question.  

[chris78]

Have a friend in Ft Lauderdale Fl....that live about a mile from the sea....his garden is open...and he says every time he trys a sealing wax palm, they alway die in a year or two... and his area are full of tall coconuts..

[philinsydney]

It's amazing the difference between Sydney and Brisbane re coconuts. Wal had a picture in another thread of a large coconut in Brisbane, yet they won't grow in Sydney at all.

Does anyone know where the most southerly coconut is in Australia? or the most southerly outdoor C. renda for that matter?

[Walter John]

(wrigphi @ Jul. 08 2006,05:02)

QUOTE

It's amazing the difference between Sydney and Brisbane re coconuts. Wal had a picture in another thread of a large coconut in Brisbane, yet they won't grow in Sydney at all.

Does anyone know where the most southerly coconut is in Australia? or the most southerly outdoor C. renda for that matter?

Mike in Port Macquarie had a coconut palm growing. Lipsticks are in Rocky I believe.

[philinsydney]

From what I've heard, Hydriastele (Gulubia) costata might be able to rival C. renda for cold-sensitiveness.

[SubTropicRay]

Hi Philip,

My Hydriatele macrospadix (also formerly Gulubia) has inadvertantly tolerated temps right down to and just slightly (ever so slightly) below freezing.  I overlooked it two winters ago when stashing plants into the greenhouse for the winter.  From reports I've heard, the former G. costata is much more tender.

Ray

[Guest]

I know of a C. renda growing happily in the central Florida Keys, north of Marathon, south of Key Largo.

[DoomsDave]

Coconut, no doubt.

Sealing wax dies below 50 F.  Coconut will survive a freeze, but they DON'T like our long so-cal cool winters.

dave

[Robert Lee Riffle]

I have to slightly disagree with The Dave: anything below 50F. is not automatically lethal for C. renda.  Prolonged periods (like 24 hours or longer) below 50F. might be; but I hafta refer yet again to a 6' tall specimen that Paul Craft )Licuala) had in Wellington, FL, just west of West Palm.  It was under a canopy of Carpentaria and Veitchia and it survived for a number of years in that site.  So look at the yearly lows for WP or West Palm/Loxahatchee.

Also, there are no large C. renda planted out at Fairchild but there is at least one quite large Gulubia/Hydriastele costata planted out, and pictured in an encyclopeidia of palms.  Not sure what this means as C. renda is a slow grower and the G/H. costata is much faster.

[SubTropicRay]

Hi  RLR,

Are you sure you want to lump Loxahatchee in with WPB?  I often compare cool winter lows with Mike Harris,  His winter lows have often been lower than mine during radiational freeze events.  I think it can get pretty "chilly" west of the turnpike. This is just my two cents.

Ray

[Dave Butler]

(chris78 @ Jul. 08 2006,04:01)

QUOTE

Have a friend in Ft Lauderdale Fl....that live about a mile from the sea....his garden is open...and he says every time he trys a sealing wax palm, they alway die in a year or two... and his area are full of tall coconuts..

Chris,

On of the big problems is maybe your friend has been getting a bad case of Gliocadium fungus which is lethal to the beautiful Sealing wax, other factors are cold. Fort lauderdale in the winter and close to the coast to bad combo`s wind and cold temperatures do not mix well with that beauty. Tell your friend if decides to get another put in a pot and move to the inside when it starts to get cold and keep it away from a area that coastal wind don`t beat on it to much. Baby it

[Phil]

Dean,

It's too bad that one of the most sought-after and beautiful palms is so cold sensitive.  I'd say that every week or two, someone comes into the nursery looking for the Lipstick Palm.  We heat our greenhouses to only 40 degrees F. during the winter and it's a guarantee that any leftover C. renda will perish quickly during the winter with our temperatures, even in our greenhouses.

Phil

[Robert Lee Riffle]

Ray, yes, you are quite correct:  I had a general low this past season of ca. 34F. while Mike Harris' fields were significantly colder (below freezing); and Paul told me it got briefly to 27F. at his place.  And yet Paul (as opposed to Mike) has a lot of canopy and his property is sheltered by other structures.  AND he has a big Pelagodoxa that is recognizable in spite of the cold winter and Miss Wilma's winds last October.

I need to find out if the C. renda in Wellington is still doing well ....

PC, get off yo' swooning couch and tell us 'bout it!

[spockvr6]

Good Lawd RLR...those temps are colder than even the "north Pinellas tundra" received this past winter (which was 34F at my place and I am a full 1.5 miles (i.e. pretty dang far) from the Gulf).  

Time and again on these radiational nights it is proven that unless one is way way way down south, proximity to water is what matters most.  Until the big windy one hits anyway.....

[BobbyinNY]

Hi  RLR,

Are you sure you want to lump Loxahatchee in with WPB?  I often compare cool winter lows with Mike Harris,  His winter lows have often been lower than mine during radiational freeze events.  I think it can get pretty "chilly" west of the turnpike. This is just my two cents.

Ray

Ahh... the turnpike.. you're making me homesick, Ray.... I need to be south of the Golden Glades interchange.

[bubba]

There is no question that Sealing Wax are more cold sensitive than Coconuts. At 26.4 I have a Sealing Wax specimen that was not effected by cold but hurt by the hurricane. It appears to be growing back but has a long way to go to reach it's pre-hurricane status. At the same time, my Verschaffeltia splendida and my Areca catechu were completely uneffected. Coconuts grow where they are dropped.

[doranakandawatta]

New Palmtalk Forum allows new members like me to read earlier posts if starting from the 989 th page! 
Nice to read and discover who was there and what were the topics then…. and remember members who passed away.

Thanks

[palmsOrl]

To revisit this topic, Cyrtostachys renda is obviously quite a bit more cold sensitive than Cocos nucifera.  Cocos are damaged by frost and freezing temperatures and can even succumb to chilly stretches of weather here in Central and even southern FL (think 2010).  I would say mature, healthy Cocos die in the 26-27F range in a typical FL freeze without any unusual factors.  Severe damage occurs in the upper 20s. 

Cyrtostachys are ultra-tropical and generally anything below 45F will cause major damage.  That said, I think they are a bit more cold hardy than their infamous reputation suggests.  I have read claims that the species dies below 50F or even 55F, and this is not the case (though I would not want to leave one sitting at 50f or even 55F for 3 days straight!).  Well established larger specimens may survive brief dips in the 35-40F range with some foliage damage.  As mentioned before, fungus is a big problem that accompanies cold exposure for Cyrtostachys as well, even if the cold itself doesn't kill the palm.  Cyrtostachys renda is completely intolerant of frost or freezing temperatures.

[doranakandawatta]

To revisit this topic, Cyrtostachys renda is obviously quite a bit more cold sensitive than Cocos nucifera.  Cocos are damaged by frost and freezing temperatures and can even succumb to chilly stretches of weather here in Central and even southern FL (think 2010).  I would say mature, healthy Cocos die in the 26-27F range in a typical FL freeze without any unusual factors.  Severe damage occurs in the upper 20s. 

Cyrtostachys are ultra-tropical and generally anything below 45F will cause major damage.  That said, I think they are a bit more cold hardy than their infamous reputation suggests.  I have read claims that the species dies below 50F or even 55F, and this is not the case (though I would not want to leave one sitting at 50f or even 55F for 3 days straight!).  Well established larger specimens may survive brief dips in the 35-40F range with some foliage damage.  As mentioned before, fungus is a big problem that accompanies cold exposure for Cyrtostachys as well, even if the cold itself doesn't kill the palm.  Cyrtostachys renda is completely intolerant of frost or freezing temperatures.

I can mention that we never see Cyrtostachys renda in upcountry like Nuwara Eliya where other species like Phoenix, Archontophoenix still grow.
Even where Areca catechu grows in the mountains (alt 1'000m, around Badulla) there's no Cyrtostachys. 

Sorry if it's of limited interest only for Sri Lanka.

[Cluster]

Coconuts are a much larger palm and that probably enables them to withstand cold for more time than Cyrtostachys renda as well. Although if a coconut was to stay at mid 30s for some days without heating up during the day it would also die, even if it does not get frost. The suggested 35-40 f tolerance for well established Cyrtostachys renda seems plausible, I say this because I have read on palmtalk stories of C Renda surviving to Miami cold events. If a Renda gets 3 days with min temperatures of 50 f (or high 40s), but gets more heat during the day (like above 55f) it will probably be ok.

[bstoller]

I live in St Pete, FL and have had a sealing wax in the ground for 5 years.  I do give it protection when the temp drops below 50 degrees.   The biggest issue I've had was when I transplanted it to my new house.  I placed it in a pot for 30 days and made the mistake of letting it dry out.  2 of the 3 trunks died off.  It is back in the ground an starting to get going again.  We shall see. 

[Tropicgardener]

 

(wrigphi @ Jul. 08 2006,05:02)

QUOTE

It's amazing the difference between Sydney and Brisbane re coconuts. Wal had a picture in another thread of a large coconut in Brisbane, yet they won't grow in Sydney at all.

Does anyone know where the most southerly coconut is in Australia? or the most southerly outdoor C. renda for that matter?

Mike in Port Macquarie had a coconut palm growing. Lipsticks are in Rocky I believe.

I successfully grew a Lipstick in my Tannum Sands garden (120km south of Rockhampton), had it there for about 5 years and it doubled its size........ As far as I know it is still there.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Tropicgardener

[steve99]

 

(wrigphi @ Jul. 08 2006,05:02)

QUOTE

It's amazing the difference between Sydney and Brisbane re coconuts. Wal had a picture in another thread of a large coconut in Brisbane, yet they won't grow in Sydney at all.

Does anyone know where the most southerly coconut is in Australia? or the most southerly outdoor C. renda for that matter?

Mike in Port Macquarie had a coconut palm growing. Lipsticks are in Rocky I believe.

I successfully grew a Lipstick in my Tannum Sands garden (120km south of Rockhampton), had it there for about 5 years and it doubled its size........ As far as I know it is still there.

Tannum sands would be an exception, a rare exception.     To be honest, anywhere South of Bowen would be marginal.  I tied one here on the coast about 20 years ago at a place that never got below about 10C in winter.  It was dead by winters end.

[Cluster]

I could not find climate charts for Tannum Sands, but I have found for Gladstone which is very close a bit further north and closer to the sea. They have record lows for the last 30 years slightly below 40 f, so I take the Garden being more inland and south might even have lower lows. Regardless the average temperature in the coldest month for Gladstone apparently is 13-22(23 in wiki). I seem to recall Lipsticks have been tried out in the Canaries with some success even in zones a bit higher in altitude compared to sea level, at those higher altitudes(around 600 feet or so I recall) the average lows are probably around 13-14 and the max temperature 21 for the coldest month.

[Cocoa Beach Jason]

I live in St Pete, FL and have had a sealing wax in the ground for 5 years.  I do give it protection when the temp drops below 50 degrees.   The biggest issue I've had was when I transplanted it to my new house.  I placed it in a pot for 30 days and made the mistake of letting it dry out.  2 of the 3 trunks died off.  It is back in the ground an starting to get going again.  We shall see. 

Wow this palm in St. Pete is way north of its comfort zone. I am assuming you take some pretty drastic measures in winter?

[Tropicgardener]

 

(wrigphi @ Jul. 08 2006,05:02)

QUOTE

It's amazing the difference between Sydney and Brisbane re coconuts. Wal had a picture in another thread of a large coconut in Brisbane, yet they won't grow in Sydney at all.

Does anyone know where the most southerly coconut is in Australia? or the most southerly outdoor C. renda for that matter?

Mike in Port Macquarie had a coconut palm growing. Lipsticks are in Rocky I believe.

I successfully grew a Lipstick in my Tannum Sands garden (120km south of Rockhampton), had it there for about 5 years and it doubled its size........ As far as I know it is still there.

Tannum sands would be an exception, a rare exception.     To be honest, anywhere South of Bowen would be marginal.  I tied one here on the coast about 20 years ago at a place that never got below about 10C in winter.  It was dead by winters end.

Steve, there were at least 3 others I know of growing in Tannum Sands / Boyne Island area............ Here in the Whitsundays there are quite a number of them growing especially around Airlie Beach but there are some growing out towards Proserpine too, some of them are quite large and well established............ There are also some very nice ones growing in and around Mackay (including fruiting specimens)............. My garden is less than 2 years old and I haven't planted any yet but do have a few in pots and large tubs ready to be planted out in the future.

[The Palm Nut]

Coconuts grow well in Port Macquarie as long as the grower plants them in the appropriate spot, not many in Port unfortunately, and knows how to look after it during winter months. Once its exposed to the cold winter winds it will decline over a few years if not sooner. I had mine for many years looking great but once it got to about 20 feet tall it started to decline. I have two growing at the moment, one just germinated last summer and one about five years old, both doing great. I had a lipstick in ground, which grew slowly for five years, but in the end I let it die as I was spending to much money on electricity keeping it warm during winter. There had been 4 other coconuts growing in Port, all in pretty good spots and looking good but unfortunately the owners removed them for some reason. So as far as I know I' am the only one growing coconuts in Port Macquarie.

[Daryl]

There are some large C.renda growing at Dale Challenor's place in Rocky...been there for many years and endured some serious cold too. He has lost some over the years but the bigger clumps survive...and it can get damn cold at night in Rocky.

My C.renda hybrid made it through this winter without protection...lost a few small suckers but I can live with that!

We have many fruiting coconuts in the warmer spots here, but not C.renda...

 

[Cindy Adair]

As many of you know, I recently moved from cold cold Virginia where no one could keep coconuts or C. rendas alive although many tried in greenhouses.

In western Puerto Rico where I am at 900 feet I don't believe it will ever even drop to 60 degrees F and this summer it typically is 74-86 F with a shower every afternoon.

So I have no opinion as to the hardiness question.

So the only thing I can add are some photos in case someone new to palms wanted to see why we all like this red trunked palm!

I have three (and now many suckers) with never a need to add water. I hope never to move from this farm!

[Tropicgardener]

I could not find climate charts for Tannum Sands, but I have found for Gladstone which is very close a bit further north and closer to the sea. They have record lows for the last 30 years slightly below 40 f, so I take the Garden being more inland and south might even have lower lows. Regardless the average temperature in the coldest month for Gladstone apparently is 13-22(23 in wiki). I seem to recall Lipsticks have been tried out in the Canaries with some success even in zones a bit higher in altitude compared to sea level, at those higher altitudes(around 600 feet or so I recall) the average lows are probably around 13-14 and the max temperature 21 for the coldest month.

Gladstone is less is only about 15km north of Tannum Sands so there is no climate difference.......... Tannum Sands is also right on the coast, only a 5 minute walk from my house to the beach. Sealing Wax Palms will take temperatures down to 5 degrees C (41 degrees F)......it just depends on how long the temperature is down there for. Coastal areas of Queensland are either humid tropical or humid subtropical. Generally the further north you go the minimums are only at that point for a very short period as is the case in places such as Rockhampton that is on the Tropic of Capricorn but is slightly inland.

[Cluster]

That is what I meant, I tried to find the closest climate to the place.Since the Botanic garden is slightly more inland I expected lows slightly lower (half degree at most?) being 2 km away from the sea. It is nice to know you can grow them in such climate:). 

Edited September 16, 2015 by Cluster

[Tropicgardener]

That is what I meant, I tried to find the closest climate to the place.Since the Botanic garden is slightly more inland I expected lows slightly lower (half degree at most?) being 2 km away from the sea. It is nice to know you can grow them in such climate:). 

The climate there would be very similar to the extreme southern tip of Florida, just as hot and humid but with less consistent rainfall......it is less than 100km (60 miles) from the Tropic of Capricorn.