Epsom salt

[dalmatiansoap]

Do U guys use Epsom salt?

For what, how often and how much? What palms enjoys it and whan I need to avoid it?

Thanks,

Ante

[Z4Devil]

Hi, Ante -

here, me. Yes, I use epsom salt now and then, always together with fertilizer. As far as I know the standard fertilizers (for palms) contains not magnesium and potassium enough. That´s why both minerals I mix to the fertilizer. None of my palms show any "allergic" or touchy indications. Both minerals are essential necessary for the photosynthesis, much more than ferreous - at least for palms growing indoor in our (Middle European) latitudes.

I think they would NOT be of such a good condition if I don´t use it.

[Tyrone]

Epsom salt is Magnesium sulfate. Magnesium is central to every chlorophyll molecule. So no magnesium means no chlorophyll and no green. If your palms have interveinal chlorosis (pale colouring between veins) on the oldest leaves, and normal newest leaves it likely has a magnesium deficiency which can be corrected with magnesium sulfate. Too much magnesium and you may get a lock up of potassium. So it is good to give a bit of potassium whenever giving magnesium to a plant. If your soil has adequate magnesium, applying magnesium sulfate is of little benefit.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Z4Devil]

Exactly that what I meant. Thanks, Tyrone.

[dalmatiansoap]

I have this problem with potted plants and now whan I planted one (Ravenea rivularis) wont to give it a healthy start.

[Ken Johnson]

Trace elements should be given to all palms. The ratios are important and the total amount has an upper limit before it harms the palm. If you add one mineral and not the others it can harm the palm. That is why we use fertilizers that are man made and include minors in amounts that are balanced (more or less) for palms. If you add only magnesium and not the others you will potentially end up in trouble.

[LJG]

I think Tyrone's Googled answer sums it up well.

[BS Man about Palms]

Its nice to soak in too!

[Tyrone]

  On 3/6/2011 at 3:53 PM, dalmatiansoap said:

I have this problem with potted plants and now whan I planted one (Ravenea rivularis) wont to give it a healthy start.

Young R rivularis do have high Magnesium needs. Yours is probably on the verge of needing some, but by the looks of it needs nitrogen and everything else as well. Try and find a fertiliser that has NPK plus magnesium (they don't all have it) and most if not all the other trace elements as well and give it a dose. These are a hungry species.

Best regards

Tyrone

[Tyrone]

  On 3/6/2011 at 4:13 PM, LJG said:

I think Tyrone's Googled answer sums it up well.

Thanks, but I didn't google it.

[sonoranfans]

  On 3/7/2011 at 1:34 AM, Tyrone said:

  On 3/6/2011 at 4:13 PM, LJG said:

I think Tyrone's Googled answer sums it up well.

Thanks, but I didn't google it.

Tyrone knows about soil chemistry, he doesnt need to google it. We americans seem to lean on google a bit and assume that everyone does...

[LJG]

  On 3/7/2011 at 1:34 AM, Tyrone said:

  On 3/6/2011 at 4:13 PM, LJG said:

I think Tyrone's Googled answer sums it up well.

Thanks, but I didn't google it.

I had to Google it to see for sure and the results basically had the exact same reply. Nice work.

[Tyrone]

I googled my avatar.

I am a horticulturist/landscaper and had to study soil chemistry a bit, but not to the extent of a soil scientist of course. Just enough to get by. Also I kind of have to help people out with their problems in their gardens and we have really crappy soil (sand) which can be nice and acidic away from the coast though totally nutrient deficient and limey near the coast. Nutrient deficiencies and lockups are just everywhere you look. So I'm dealing with it all the time. I amend the soils in my landscapes about 10 times more for my tropical palm gardens than a landscaper planting normal native plants would because of this.

Also I had a severely deficient R rivularis that had major magnesium deficiencies and iron and brought it back from the brink of a yellowy death from large applications of magnesium, iron and heaps of NPK. It's now massive. So I learnt about magnesium and its effects early on.

The soil is probably the most overlooked but the most important aspect of a garden.

Best regards

Tyrone

[LJG]

R. rivularis is a pig for everything. I have started noticing many old large palms send out stunted heads and then never recover really. These deficient palms are in many gardens around here. I am starting to think they might suffer from Manganese deficiency. I juice mine with tons of water, NPK, iron and even potassium spikes. Mine looks great but it is getting to the size that I see these palms send out stunted leafs. It seems right around the time they start flowering. I am thinking about using the Lutz manganese spikes now too.

[dalmatiansoap]

  On 3/7/2011 at 1:32 AM, Tyrone said:

  On 3/6/2011 at 3:53 PM, dalmatiansoap said:

I have this problem with potted plants and now whan I planted one (Ravenea rivularis) wont to give it a healthy start.

Young R rivularis do have high Magnesium needs. Yours is probably on the verge of needing some, but by the looks of it needs nitrogen and everything else as well. Try and find a fertiliser that has NPK plus magnesium (they don't all have it) and most if not all the other trace elements as well and give it a dose. These are a hungry species.

Best regards

Tyrone

What I can do best at the moment is 15-15-15 + Epsom salt. I hope that can provide a decent "push".

[Tyrone]

You'll also need iron and the other trace elements in there.

Best regards

Tyrone

[edbrown_III]

Some of my palms have chronic pottasium or magnesium deficiency. Its real bad in Florida and some palms are worse than others. Borshat has a book on it. It specifies 3:1 ratio for Potassium: magnesium. He bases this on leaf analsis. I had this problem with Lytocareum in my green houses but I think it was from too much watering which washes away soluble salts (such as K and Mg) -- I keep the plants drier and this has helped.

I figured from density that this is about 2.3 cups of Pottasium sulfat to 1 cup of Magnesium --- I am buying it in large bags from a feed store as I have a large garden.

Best regards

Ed

[lucky1]

  Quote

best at the moment is 15-15-15 + Epsom salt. I hope that can provide a decent "push".

15% phosphorus is way too high for palms.

Ratio of NPK should be closer to 4-1-6, especially in sandy soils which leach Potassium faster.

And high N can worsen Potassium problems.

But a "palm special" fertilizer contains the most important things as people here have said.

Trace elements, which are best in chelated form.

Palm Special fertilizers are the ONLY "good" fertilizers remaining on the market today.

Everything else is garbage if you're growing palms.

Someone said about palms: "Good fertilizer isn't cheap, and cheap fertilizer isn't good".

I'm no expert, have simply learned the hard way with my 50+ palms.

Barb

[Z4Devil]

  On 3/7/2011 at 1:19 PM, edbrown_III said:

[...]

I had this problem with Lytocareum in my green houses but I think it was from too much watering which washes away soluble salts (such as K and Mg) -- I keep the plants drier and this has helped.

[...]

Hmmm ... really very strange, Ed. In my opinion not only the watering can be a reason for such deficiency syndromes. I have 2 larger L. wedellianum (look here --> http://www.palmtalk.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=27305&st=0&p=449067&fromsearch=1&#entry449067 )

What shall I say? Both L. wedellianum are true boozers! Though they are potted in a very special and - for this species - untypical soil. I never water my indoor palms from above into the soil but always from below. So the palm takes what it needs, overwatering can be excluded. My L. wedellianum take about 2 liters max. a day, the L. hoehnei a little bit less.

As far as I understand, your Lyto has been growing indoor, too. My experience with them is that they are one of the most dirsty palms ever.

Verena

[dalmatiansoap]

Well Barb, I belive U have more than enough expirience with 50+ palms and thats something I still have to catch for years but its allmost only fert I can get here beside 7-14-21 and maybe one or two more (if some of Croatian members jumps in and give me more informations about ferts we have on market here) but its hard to belive I can find afordable specialise Palm fert here.

[lucky1]

  Quote

afordable specialise Palm fert here.

I've seen photos of Croatia's fabulous palms.

Wondered how they could grow among rock boulders.

Somebody must know of a "palm special" fertilizer supplier there but as you hinted, it's not cheap.

Re 50+ palms...it's Canada so all are indoors in heavy pots.

Except one, a 34 year old Trachy (bonsai-ed of course) in a heated palm hut.

Re learning the hard way, I've learned valuable tips from Palm Talk people.

Just in time, too, preventing my errors leading to palm fatalities. Lots of them.

Barb

[dalmatiansoap]

  On 3/7/2011 at 7:52 PM, lucky1 said:

Re 50+ palms...it's Canada so all are indoors in heavy pots.

Watch your tail then, Im right behind you

Edited March 7, 2011 by dalmatiansoap

[Tyrone]

All the "Palm special" fertilisers I've seen in this country have been hopeless. Really weak stuff. They're designed for indoor palms like Chamaedorea elegans and ferns. Most of the time fertilisers will have "palms and ferns use at half strength" on them somewhere. A palm and a fern are two totally different plants with totally different needs. If you used the "Palm special" ferts on a giant Royal palm you'd need about 200kg of the stuff a year for one plant.

The US and European way of rating fert is different. The European way (used in Australia) only rates what is plant available and will give a lower numerical value than the US way. So a 15,15,15 in the US may be rated as something more like a 14,5,12 in the European system for example.

I personally like to go with a fert that has higher potassium than nitrogen. I use on my inground palms a German product called Nitrophoska Perfekt from BASF. It has all the traces and I think has a rating of something like 15,2,16.

People talk about macro nutrients (NPK) and micro nutrients, but magnesium and calcium fall somewhere in between. Calcium is usually available in most gardens without addition unless you have very acidic soils. The 3:1 ratio of Potassium to Magnesium sounds quite good and shows that Magnesium is not quite a micronutrient. The other micronutrients (iron, zinc, manganese, boron) would be in much smaller proportions.

Best regards

Tyrone

[dalmatiansoap]

Thanks Tyrone

and what do U think about stuff like this:

http://www.ehow.com/how_5235029_make-enhance-growth-rate-palm.html

looks afordable in my case.

[Tyrone]

  On 3/8/2011 at 11:45 AM, dalmatiansoap said:

Thanks Tyrone

and what do U think about stuff like this:

http://www.ehow.com/...-rate-palm.html

looks afordable in my case.

Probably a high nitrogen and magnesium hit in there, but it's far from a complete fertiliser in my opinion. It's one thing to get lush green growth, but it's another to make that lush growth strong and not weak and susceptible to fungal and insect attack. In pots I'd use a slow release fertiliser like an Osmocote or any of the quality brands out there with a high potassium content and micronutrients.

Are they available in your country?

Best regards

Tyrone

[BeaumontTropics]

  On 3/7/2011 at 3:03 AM, LJG said:

  On 3/7/2011 at 1:34 AM, Tyrone said:

  On 3/6/2011 at 4:13 PM, LJG said:

I think Tyrone's Googled answer sums it up well.

Thanks, but I didn't google it.

I had to Google it to see for sure and the results basically had the exact same reply. Nice work.

Be careful Len,

you'll start a war with tyrone and before you know it, he'll be sending you links for a piece of land that has graphs and detailed studies of toxicity and physiological reports that will have you running to the liquor cabinet to try to make your head stop hurting...just don't even go there brother, believe me, I know!

-FINS

[Tyrone]

  On 3/8/2011 at 3:34 PM, BeaumontTropics said:

  On 3/7/2011 at 3:03 AM, LJG said:

  On 3/7/2011 at 1:34 AM, Tyrone said:

  On 3/6/2011 at 4:13 PM, LJG said:

I think Tyrone's Googled answer sums it up well.

Thanks, but I didn't google it.

I had to Google it to see for sure and the results basically had the exact same reply. Nice work.

Be careful Len,

you'll start a war with tyrone and before you know it, he'll be sending you links for a piece of land that has graphs and detailed studies of toxicity and physiological reports that will have you running to the liquor cabinet to try to make your head stop hurting...just don't even go there brother, believe me, I know!

-FINS

Hey, haven't we thrown the hatchet under the bridge with the water that went under it sort of thing.

[BeaumontTropics]

Tyrone,

absolutely! I was merely trying to help Len avoid the unmistakable unparalleled wrath of Tyrone!

FINS BUD!!

-eric

[LJG]

  On 3/8/2011 at 11:49 PM, BeaumontTropics said:

Tyrone,

absolutely! I was merely trying to help Len avoid the unmistakable unparalleled wrath of Tyrone!

FINS BUD!!

-eric

Thanks. I am already sleeping easier.

[alex_7b]

Can you say "frizzletop". This seems to be common in sandy soils. I've seen it with Butias and Syagrus. Never on a Majesty, but I guess it's possible. Epsom Salts are the cheapest way to remedy it. If iron is needed, some rose fertilizers have it. One thing I've never seen though, is palm fertilizer sold in the quantity you'd actually need for several trunking plants. I have only seen it packaged < 5 lbs.

[Perito]

I get 50 Lb. bags of 'Palm Plus', a three month time release fertilizer with micros. I've had good results with it. Perry